RE: Lotus boss Jean-Marc Gales: PH Meets
Discussion
mrdemon said:
it's a crying shame because there is a good car in there some where.
If you think it's such a crying shame, why do you pop up on every Lotus forum slagging off the cars you're clearly never going to buy? You've been at it for years, why? I've never once seen you post something constructive.ChristAlmighty said:
Great, in other words "we'll continue to churn out small plasticy things that only appeal to a very narrow slice of the market". Genius.
The market has moved on - the majority want performance *and* luxury... and are happy to pay for it. I'd have written a cheque for the new Esprit already if it was available; Bahar may be many things but he actually made me take notice of Lotus for the very first time.
I mourn the news there will be no Esprit. I guess McLaren will be where I go next.
If a mclaren is your price bracket then it's unlikely that lotus will satisfy you.The market has moved on - the majority want performance *and* luxury... and are happy to pay for it. I'd have written a cheque for the new Esprit already if it was available; Bahar may be many things but he actually made me take notice of Lotus for the very first time.
I mourn the news there will be no Esprit. I guess McLaren will be where I go next.
Lotus can only move into that segment if bmw or VW buy them and I think this would destroy it. I like that it still wants to produce light, simple cars that perform as good as any but with delicacy without breaking the bank.
Good luck to the new guy.
Why do people bleat on about being expensive.
Lotus is a low volume niche hand made car producer, so stop making comparisons to volume manufacturers.
People will pay a premium for that.
Yes they need to sell more cars but not zillions. Otherwise it will lose its appeal.
Good for residuals too.
Lotus is a low volume niche hand made car producer, so stop making comparisons to volume manufacturers.
People will pay a premium for that.
Yes they need to sell more cars but not zillions. Otherwise it will lose its appeal.
Good for residuals too.
If they are not going to introduce new models, then they need to do some real facelifting, a la 12c to 650s type changes. I suspect the new Alfa will sell very well because it's distinctive and oddly pretty. I would characterize all of the current Lotuses as being familiar and sort of pretty.
Bahar, at least, gave Lotus fans some hope. For me, the proposed Esprit was the least worthy looks-wise of the five new models. It looked exactly like the Elan and it wasn't striking or exotic like its predecessor. The other four models looked superb for what they were supposed to be, however, and the most interesting thing was having a new Lotus engine. If they can't make their own, I would strongly prefer that they stay with a British engine or American one and stay away from Germany and Japan.
Other than increasing dealers, Gales' plan seems to be more hospice than resurrection. I hope I'm wrong.
Bahar, at least, gave Lotus fans some hope. For me, the proposed Esprit was the least worthy looks-wise of the five new models. It looked exactly like the Elan and it wasn't striking or exotic like its predecessor. The other four models looked superb for what they were supposed to be, however, and the most interesting thing was having a new Lotus engine. If they can't make their own, I would strongly prefer that they stay with a British engine or American one and stay away from Germany and Japan.
Other than increasing dealers, Gales' plan seems to be more hospice than resurrection. I hope I'm wrong.
Tuna said:
mrdemon said:
it's a crying shame because there is a good car in there some where.
If you think it's such a crying shame, why do you pop up on every Lotus forum slagging off the cars you're clearly never going to buy? You've been at it for years, why? I've never once seen you post something constructive.Gary C said:
If a mclaren is your price bracket then it's unlikely that lotus will satisfy you.
Lotus can only move into that segment if bmw or VW buy them and I think this would destroy it. I like that it still wants to produce light, simple cars that perform as good as any but with delicacy without breaking the bank.
Good luck to the new guy.
The new Esprit appeared to have it all; stunning looks, performance, and a realistic price (supposedly). I'd rather not spend McLaren money If I can avoid it!Lotus can only move into that segment if bmw or VW buy them and I think this would destroy it. I like that it still wants to produce light, simple cars that perform as good as any but with delicacy without breaking the bank.
Good luck to the new guy.
For comparison, Porsche builds roughly 8 times more cars-per-head than Lotus. That is how big a mountain Mr Gales has to climb.
Quite astonishing to read Lotus does not have a proper distribution network in Europe's most valuable city market (London).
He also has to design the exteriors prettier, make the interiors far more sophisticated, make the entry-exits much more dignified, open more dealerships, post some big 'Ring times, and get the next flagship model placed in a Bond movie.
It ain't gonna be easy or fast. Hope they succeed. They have made some great cars over the years.
Quite astonishing to read Lotus does not have a proper distribution network in Europe's most valuable city market (London).
He also has to design the exteriors prettier, make the interiors far more sophisticated, make the entry-exits much more dignified, open more dealerships, post some big 'Ring times, and get the next flagship model placed in a Bond movie.
It ain't gonna be easy or fast. Hope they succeed. They have made some great cars over the years.
Certainly on the money here:
"Nothing survived from them," he says. Quite apart from the cost of developing them for production, they didn't fit with the Lotus ethos. "If you look at [the core Lotus values of] dynamic excellence and lightweight efficiency, this clearly excludes the five former concepts that we showed four years ago in Paris."
Fingers crossed.
"Nothing survived from them," he says. Quite apart from the cost of developing them for production, they didn't fit with the Lotus ethos. "If you look at [the core Lotus values of] dynamic excellence and lightweight efficiency, this clearly excludes the five former concepts that we showed four years ago in Paris."
Fingers crossed.
The Esprit is key. It is the halo car and since it's demise nothing has filled that void. Lotus have been dancing around the Esprit issue since the M250 was canned. The Evora, great though it is, made no sense. What was it trying to achieve? It was aimed at a market segment that doesn't really exist; people who want a Lotus 911. Stop trying to muscle in on other people's totally dominant and established markets and concentrate on your own. That's the Esprit!
Though I agree with him that Lotus shouldn't make their own engines. They're simply not big enough to spend the sort of money necessary to create something reliable. Look at TVR for that one... There's nothing wrong with using someone else's engine. Lotus have done it since the dawn of time. Noble do it, Zonda do it, etc. It makes sense. Just please don't bolt a van/Renault gearbox/transaxle to it, and please try to imbue it with a little character. I don't mean F-Type ultra-theatrics either, just make it sound like a sports car.
Other than that, keep them light, simple and affordable (in the scheme of things) and keep the ride/handling that Lotus are best in the world at. Don't be tempted to copy other brand's electronic nonsense (looking at you Porsche with Sport/Sport Plus modes that make the car 'more sporty'). All that b
ks should be covered by three pedals, a wheel and a gear shifter on a Lotus. It's about the drive, not the toys.
Finally try to finish developing them before you start selling them. That was another thing that killed the Evora for me. There's a great car in there, when it's finished. I drove an early one, I hope it's been sorted by now, but that doesn't change the fact I replaced my Elise with a Cayman.
Though I agree with him that Lotus shouldn't make their own engines. They're simply not big enough to spend the sort of money necessary to create something reliable. Look at TVR for that one... There's nothing wrong with using someone else's engine. Lotus have done it since the dawn of time. Noble do it, Zonda do it, etc. It makes sense. Just please don't bolt a van/Renault gearbox/transaxle to it, and please try to imbue it with a little character. I don't mean F-Type ultra-theatrics either, just make it sound like a sports car.
Other than that, keep them light, simple and affordable (in the scheme of things) and keep the ride/handling that Lotus are best in the world at. Don't be tempted to copy other brand's electronic nonsense (looking at you Porsche with Sport/Sport Plus modes that make the car 'more sporty'). All that b
ks should be covered by three pedals, a wheel and a gear shifter on a Lotus. It's about the drive, not the toys.Finally try to finish developing them before you start selling them. That was another thing that killed the Evora for me. There's a great car in there, when it's finished. I drove an early one, I hope it's been sorted by now, but that doesn't change the fact I replaced my Elise with a Cayman.
Edited by juansolo on Saturday 27th September 08:02
juansolo said:
The Esprit is key. It is the halo car and since it's demise nothing has filled that void. Lotus have been dancing around the Esprit issue since the M250 was canned. The Evora, great though it is, made no sense. What was it trying to achieve? It was aimed at a market segment that doesn't really exist; people who want a Lotus 911. Stop trying to muscle in on other people's totally dominant and established markets and concentrate on your own. That's the Esprit!
The original justification for the Evora was that it was the first outing for a new platform that would move on the dynamics after the Elise, and would allow them to build other cars more easily. The theory was that the Evora was a safer bet and a chance to shake down the new technology before they went on to produce the Esprit. Then MJK had to retire, DB took over and that plan got thrown out of the window.In the event, I think they were right not to have developed the Esprit first - it would have been immediately eclipsed by the McLaren, Porsche and Ferrari fight that we've seen. The machine DB later showed was still not bold enough to take the competition to the big boys. When they do produce the Esprit, they're going to have quite a challenge, as the power trains produced by their competitors are in a league of their own. That's not to say they can't buy in (it's worked for Noble), but it immediately takes the shine off what is otherwise a bespoke car.
This thread has highlighted the many areas Lotus could push forward. Gales is not going to be able to do it all (that would be Bahar-level madness), but I think by focussing on getting the most of the existing line up he stands a good chance of building a much more stable, growing business. That in turn could support a genuinely new and exciting car in a few years time when the rest of the infrastructure is in place to market, sell and support it globally.
lamboman100 said:
Quite astonishing to read Lotus does not have a proper distribution network in Europe's most valuable city market (London).
He also has to design the exteriors prettier, make the interiors far more sophisticated, make the entry-exits much more dignified, open more dealerships, post some big 'Ring times, and get the next flagship model placed in a Bond movie.
It ain't gonna be easy or fast. Hope they succeed. They have made some great cars over the years.
Agree, they do need to get the brand available to a wider audience with more dealerships, London especially. He also has to design the exteriors prettier, make the interiors far more sophisticated, make the entry-exits much more dignified, open more dealerships, post some big 'Ring times, and get the next flagship model placed in a Bond movie.
It ain't gonna be easy or fast. Hope they succeed. They have made some great cars over the years.
I can't agree on the interior thing, IMHO they interiors are perfect, no clutter or fuss just a clean functioning cabin. To be honest I prefer a Lotus without elec windows, additional sound proofing and A/C as well. There are plenty of 'sports cars' that have these, but not many that don't these days. I am a bit of a ludite though!
A bond car would be good too, I don't think even James Bond could get out of a Lotus in his usual suave way though!
Tuna said:
juansolo said:
The Esprit is key. It is the halo car and since it's demise nothing has filled that void. Lotus have been dancing around the Esprit issue since the M250 was canned. The Evora, great though it is, made no sense. What was it trying to achieve? It was aimed at a market segment that doesn't really exist; people who want a Lotus 911. Stop trying to muscle in on other people's totally dominant and established markets and concentrate on your own. That's the Esprit!
The original justification for the Evora was that it was the first outing for a new platform that would move on the dynamics after the Elise, and would allow them to build other cars more easily. The theory was that the Evora was a safer bet and a chance to shake down the new technology before they went on to produce the Esprit. Then MJK had to retire, DB took over and that plan got thrown out of the window.In the event, I think they were right not to have developed the Esprit first - it would have been immediately eclipsed by the McLaren, Porsche and Ferrari fight that we've seen. The machine DB later showed was still not bold enough to take the competition to the big boys. When they do produce the Esprit, they're going to have quite a challenge, as the power trains produced by their competitors are in a league of their own. That's not to say they can't buy in (it's worked for Noble), but it immediately takes the shine off what is otherwise a bespoke car.
This thread has highlighted the many areas Lotus could push forward. Gales is not going to be able to do it all (that would be Bahar-level madness), but I think by focussing on getting the most of the existing line up he stands a good chance of building a much more stable, growing business. That in turn could support a genuinely new and exciting car in a few years time when the rest of the infrastructure is in place to market, sell and support it globally.
Which is why they have to carve out their own niche. The niche that TVR, the Noble M12 and indeed the Esprit used to sit in. That's the lower priced enthusiasts car. If it's over £60k they've got no chance of shifting them, because you're starting to get into Porsche money much beyond that.
It means not wasting time on fripperies and electronic bulls
t like the others. They've proved they can make a set of non-adjustable suspension ride and handle beautifully on the Evora, no need for complex active stuff to make it work on road and track. Get it as light as possible and it makes it all work better; less weight means smaller wheels, means smaller brakes, means less weight... It's the circle of lightness. Stop trying to concentrate on beating Ferrari or being then next whatever. Do what you do best. Honest to goodness driving machines.In my head the ideal Esprit would take the Toyota V6 turbo (the Esprit MUST be turbo), fit it longitudinally in the middle, spending some money on a decent transaxle so you don't have to waste money developing a semi-auto that Lotus buyers do not want (we just want a GOOD gear change, I suspect they've only sold because the manual in the Evora is so poor). As close to 1000kgs as possible should be a target and every kg over seen as a failure. Remember when you made the Elise and looked at every component and how it could be lighter? Do that again! No PAS. If it's light enough, it shouldn't need it. You can throw lots of stuff away that's just not required.
Don't get hung up on figures or chasing other people's numbers. It's pointless. Make the best drivers car ever. How fast it goes is utterly f
king irrelevant in this day and age. 400hp in a 1000kg car will be mentally fast enough on the road and more than enough to have fun on a track. Gear it so it doesn't run out of revs at the end of the Kemmel straight and the gearing will be fine 
Don't over tyre it and it make understeer like a b
d. I'm bored with cars that grip and grip and grip. Make it alive! Again, it's a Lotus, it's about the drive. The only driver aids in the car should be 3 pedals, a wheel and a gear shifter. I know in this day and age you have to have ABS, fair enough. At least make it so it doesn't spazz out on track. If you must fit traction control, and I really wish you wouldn't, make it so you can switch it off completely. That annoys the living st out of me that Porsche only let you fully disable the TC on a GT3.So basically keep it light, simple, and utterly driver focused. Oh and make it sound decent as standard, don't make it part of an option pack or any such bulls
ttery. The engine's going to lack character, try to at least mask that a little.All that said, please make it properly. Don't be utterly
and use that 10p component that might fail vs a 15p one that most likely wont. Lotus need to build cars properly. I'm not sure they ever have really, but in this day and age, people (myself included) will not tolerate something that breaks more often than it works.The reason these threads are so popular and so vociferous is because we WANT to see Lotus succeed. It's the car we wanted as kids (see my profile pic), it was aspirational and iconic. You can't say that about any of the current range, which IMO is why the Esprit is so needed (and why the ball was dropped so catastrophically when the M250 was canned). Seeing the likes of Bahar piss money away whilst simply not understanding what lotus is pains us.
I still want an Esprit GT3... /hits the classifieds.
Edited by juansolo on Saturday 27th September 20:22
mrdemon said:
"The three are still the dynamic benchmark in their segments "
he is dreaming.
the 1st issue in his role should be seeing the down sides of the cars he is trying to sell in todays market, not saying how great they are.
the Evora a benchmark ffs. it's a dinosaur and all he wants to do is cut the roof off.
the cars needs a new engine, needs to loose 100kg's and be 15k cheaper.
in 2014 they have sold 10 sports racers !!!!
cars will sell, you don't need dealers.
UK sales must be an all time low now.
Ferrari said they used the Evora as their benchmark for ride and handling on the 458.he is dreaming.
the 1st issue in his role should be seeing the down sides of the cars he is trying to sell in todays market, not saying how great they are.
the Evora a benchmark ffs. it's a dinosaur and all he wants to do is cut the roof off.
the cars needs a new engine, needs to loose 100kg's and be 15k cheaper.
in 2014 they have sold 10 sports racers !!!!
cars will sell, you don't need dealers.
UK sales must be an all time low now.
blueg33 said:
Had an intetesting in person discussion with a couple of mods from various Lotus forums.
Mrdeamon seems to make a habit of dissing Lotus. Maybe there is some kind of axe to grind.
(I didn't raise the issue, the mods did)
He's well known, and I believe has been thrown off some forums for being rather... opinionated. Certainly his view of the world has never wavered from an absolute belief in all things Porsche. It makes it all the more strange that he hangs out here. I guess he knows he can get a lot of attention by attacking Lotus.Mrdeamon seems to make a habit of dissing Lotus. Maybe there is some kind of axe to grind.
(I didn't raise the issue, the mods did)
Tuna said:
He's well known, and I believe has been thrown off some forums for being rather... opinionated. Certainly his view of the world has never wavered from an absolute belief in all things Porsche. It makes it all the more strange that he hangs out here. I guess he knows he can get a lot of attention by attacking Lotus.
He got 'found out' by some guys on SELOC. He's some sort of professional Troll, going on all sorts of car forums and spouting the sort of drivel that we've seen here. Quite a sad individual.juansolo said:
Don't agree on this. If Lotus try to compete with Ferrari and McLaren they'll lose, they simply haven't the cash or resources of those two. Porsche are mass produced sports cars, again that's like the Elise trying to compete with the MX-5. Lotus simply doesn't have the clout to take it to any of the above on their terms.
Which is why they have to carve out their own niche. The niche that TVR, the Noble M12 and indeed the Esprit used to sit in. That's the lower priced enthusiasts car. If it's over £60k they've got no chance of shifting them, because you're starting to get into Porsche money much beyond that.
Passionately argued, but you're basically saying the same as every one else that Lotus should make the 'perfect' car for you. The problem is that when they made the Elise, which fit most of your criteria - light, driver focussed, carving a unique niche - it was still outsold by Porsche 10 to 1 at the absolute peak of it's sales. That's at the point where they were offering some great power options, had raised the bar for reliability and build and could point to a depreciation curve that is frankly amazing.Which is why they have to carve out their own niche. The niche that TVR, the Noble M12 and indeed the Esprit used to sit in. That's the lower priced enthusiasts car. If it's over £60k they've got no chance of shifting them, because you're starting to get into Porsche money much beyond that.
Like it or not, these days every manufacturer has got a sporty offering - it's become far easier to launch 'niche' models based on common platforms - and a new Lotus will always be compared to the equivalent Porsche, Ferrari, VW etc. They also get compared to the current BMW and Ford saloons because many buyers have to make an either/or choice. The Evora tried to break the mould - a 911 for Cayman money - and look what happened. The idea that you can find a unique space in a very crowded market is no longer true.
From my point of view, Lotus are limited more by their brand awareness, dealer network and marketing than by the cars they offer. Yes, the cars could be better (cars can *always* be better), but the current line up isn't exactly weak. Outside this forum very few people go in buying a new car thinking "..or I could buy a Lotus", and changing that will make a huge difference to sales - more than taking an enormous gamble on trying to produce (another) perfect car.
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