RE: Lotus boss Jean-Marc Gales: PH Meets

[Tickle]

Ozzie Osmond said:

juansolo said:

Stuff

Lot of sense there IMO.

Nice reading juansolo. Fully agree

[blueg33]

HeMightBeBanned said:

Tuna said:

He's well known, and I believe has been thrown off some forums for being rather... opinionated. Certainly his view of the world has never wavered from an absolute belief in all things Porsche. It makes it all the more strange that he hangs out here. I guess he knows he can get a lot of attention by attacking Lotus.

He got 'found out' by some guys on SELOC. He's some sort of professional Troll, going on all sorts of car forums and spouting the sort of drivel that we've seen here. Quite a sad individual.

I certainly won't bother to respond to his ill informed comments in future

Apparently before his Porsche, his Audi TT was better than every lotus and pretty much every other car

[Ed Straker]

Having recently bought (and sadly sold) an Evora, this is what it would take to get me into another one:

Fix the offset peddle box
Fix the mirrors that block the view of joining traffic at a roundabout.
Improve rear visibility
(I'd say make em cheaper, but i get that you have to charge to make a profit)
So - give me a solid local dealer and that 3 year servicing & 50% finance deal.
Then I'll order a Motorsport Green IPS Evora S tomorrow.

[Oddball RS]

Tuna said:

Oddball RS said:

When I posted something to the effect of slow sales a year ago, I was told the cars were flooding out of the doors to fill the overseas demand, I was told that was why I wasn't seeing them on our roads, and I was called a nay sayer, guess what it wasn't hard to work out but there is trouble at mill.

The core of the products is there, but I find them all expensive for what they are (Lets not dress them up as Porsche competitors - they are NOT), to a large extent I don't find any of them pretty, and a V6 Elise / Exige, lets be honest they are the same, is not really the Lotus ethos I don't care what anyone says, in 2014 it should be a tiny capacity turbo, done well.

I don't think anyone was saying last year was anything but a disaster for Lotus - they were unable to produce any cars at all for about three months during the DRB takeover. What was said was that even when they got back to production the cars that were built were going overseas - about three being exported for each one sold in the UK. As far as I'm aware, that's still the case - in fact they may be exporting even more these days as the Eastern markets are building up.

I'm unconvinced the expense issue is true - though their price list does nothing to hide how much a car actually costs, whereas Porsche play some sneaky options-list tricks to ensure that no-one actually buys a truly base model. Either you're in the market for a 50K car, or you're not. If you want a 30K car, you're going to be looking at all sorts of other compromises (and probably end up with a sporty Mondeo or Audi TT as a nice safe choice).

They can't win on engines. There are still customers who basically want to play top trumps with cylinder counts, others want turbos, many want more BHP than the competition, regardless of the actual power/weight ratio, some won't accept anything less than an in-house design and everyone wants it to be bullet proof and cheaper than anything else on the market. If you're choosing cars by looking at the numbers on paper, you haven't driven one - and if you've driven a Lotus and decided it's not the car for you, no change of engine is likely to alter that decision (unless it magically gives you Zonda levels of performance).

Sorry I don't really follow your logic, but I guess we are all different, early last year and the end of 2012 I was told on here, that production was going great guns, and they had simply sold most to foreign markets, hence no new cars really visible here. (Except ex demos) I didn't make that up, why would I? Expense is an issue, they are selling in the main 'old product' with new engines and new clams for a lot of money, The Elise was never a £50k car, and you are right I would never spend that on one as the quality is just not there for the money. As for the Evora I do like it, but it has some gauky design features which were never really addressed, the S was added because it was realised the base car wasn't enough, but again it is not a £55k to £70k car, it just isn't. And as for cylinder count I don't follow you? cylinder count is on the drop at all manufacturers as it rev limit, its 2014!, putting large capacity heavy lumps in a car is NOT the Lotus ethos. (Do you forget the new Alfa is a 4 pot?) Caterham V12 anyone? this is the existing Lotus market place - the new one died with Bahahahaha. And before you come back with a reply yes I have, and I have owned three since 2000. They need to be light weight, dynamically sharp and pretty at a reasonable price. That way the -ve points can be forgiven. A supercharged V6 Elise is as out of date as a V8 AMG C Class - and evolutionary dead end (that is not my opinion or wish on either count but it is still true).

[Dynamic Turtle]

I've been posting on the other Lotus is dead thread but think my response is also valid here:

All of this "why not simply develop a City car or an SUV" stuff is absolutely ridiculous. How many times does it have to be said; Lotus do not have the financial resources to develop new models. They just don't. Deal with it. Ain't gonna happen. Dream on.

Yes Lambo are developing an SUV but have the resources and balance sheet of Vee Dubya behind them. Lotus need to prove that they have maximised their existing product utility and exhausted all other options before worrying about "halo" cars (all you Esprit dreamers forget that this also requires a gigantic investment - think Veyron, GT-R, NSX, LFA, Carrera GT etc).

As I said earlier in this thread and to an extent latterly confirmed afterwards by JMGs interview with PH the other day, Lotus have the product but are hamstrung by limited distribution capacity. This will not be cheap to expand either but the demand side must be sated before an increase in production capacity can be justified. Walking into a dealership and finding out that the car you're interested in is suffering from a six month backlog due to outrageous demand might, counter-intuitively, be viewed as a positive thing.

Dealer network investments aside I really do think they need to spend any R&D budget on increasing reliability (particularly their forced induction variants) given the propensity for Lotus owners to drive in a spirited fashion and track their cars. I think customers can forgive the odd electrical niggle or some badly finished trim if the powertrain allows them to enjoy the car 95% of the time.

DT

[CountZero23]

Dynamic Turtle said:

Yes Lambo are developing an SUV but have the resources and balance sheet of Vee Dubya behind them. Lotus need to prove that they have maximised their existing product utility and exhausted all other options before worrying about "halo" cars (all you Esprit dreamers forget that this also requires a gigantic investment - think Veyron, GT-R, NSX, LFA, Carrera GT etc).

I fall heavily into the camp of Esprit dreamers, been at it since I first played Lotus Esprit turbo challenge. I will own one at some point and damn the consequnces, none of the current lineup do that for me - though the Evora comes damn close.

Why not think Noble M600 instead?

[Robert Elise]

Dynamic Turtle said:

I really do think they need to spend any R&D budget on increasing reliability (particularly their forced induction variants) given the propensity for Lotus owners to drive in a spirited fashion and track their cars.

DT

i thought reliability wasn't really an issue anymore? in fact, it could even be better than some German sports cars with the use of Jap engines and drivetrains.
There certainly isn't the Germanic solidity to door closing etc, but i'd rather have less weight as a compromise.

[Fire99]

I have to admit Gales does sound pretty focussed on the job in hand, which should be heralded.
It's tricky regarding the Esprit because I don't doubt the costs involved (and the public expectation) in producing a new Esprit must be pretty prohibitive, especially in their current financial climate, but I can't help but feel it is the 'wow' that the majority of Lotus fans (and potential buyers) are wanting.

Regarding the current line-up, I keep looking at them thinking that perhaps we've had too many years of the Elise esque look with the Evora's looking like a sanitised, smoothed over Elise.
Don't get me wrong, the Elise is still pretty and the Exige is striking but you get the feeling that we've become a bit over saturated with that look.

I look at the Alfa 4C which is probably dynamically inferior but it has that fresh 'wow' that pulls in the customers.

Lotus is in that tough position where it seems to be so close to a great formula but just missing a key ingredient somewhere.

[juansolo]

Tuna said:

juansolo said:

Don't agree on this. If Lotus try to compete with Ferrari and McLaren they'll lose, they simply haven't the cash or resources of those two. Porsche are mass produced sports cars, again that's like the Elise trying to compete with the MX-5. Lotus simply doesn't have the clout to take it to any of the above on their terms.

Which is why they have to carve out their own niche. The niche that TVR, the Noble M12 and indeed the Esprit used to sit in. That's the lower priced enthusiasts car. If it's over £60k they've got no chance of shifting them, because you're starting to get into Porsche money much beyond that.

Passionately argued, but you're basically saying the same as every one else that Lotus should make the 'perfect' car for you. The problem is that when they made the Elise, which fit most of your criteria - light, driver focussed, carving a unique niche - it was still outsold by Porsche 10 to 1 at the absolute peak of it's sales. That's at the point where they were offering some great power options, had raised the bar for reliability and build and could point to a depreciation curve that is frankly amazing.

Porsche are mass market cars, they have more in common with Ford than Lotus. Lotus are more like Caterham and Morgan (previously TVR and Noble too), in so much that they're a low volume specialist manufacturer with a niche market. Lotus will never, ever sell as many cars as Porsche.

When the Elise came out it was selling as many as they could make. They had waiting lists. They changed hands second hand for more than list for a while. They got it very, very right. The market at the time screamed for a new Esprit, and the M250 came along. There were deposits, there were waiting lists. But due to circumstances at the time, the ball was dropped and Lotus failed to capitalise on the momentum they had built up. Instead they churned out Elise special edition after special edition. Again they started well (with the S135 and S160), but before long became half-arsed paint jobs and not much else.

A cooking track Elise came along in the form of the Exige, but then nothing again. Just more derivatives of the Elise (the Europa, the VX220). The Evora came out and is essentially an Elise GT. Bigger, more refined, back seats. Great, great car. But I'm not sure it's a car that anyone actually wanted.

Like when Jaguar unveiled the F-Type proto back in the day, everyone who saw it said 'build it'. It took until now for them to finally sort their act out and you know what, people wanted it, and it's selling.

How many Lotus fans out there want a replacement for the Esprit? It isn't a Exige V6, that's a ultra hardcore track car, it's not an Evora, that's some sort of Elise/911 hybrid. But a proper Esprit. Mid market mid engined turbo sports car. Imagine if the M12 had Lotus badge on it back when that arrived... What would it have sold like?!

Edited by juansolo on Sunday 28th September 16:21

[juansolo]

Actually I might have to eat my words a little here. I've revisited the pics I took of the M250 when it was unveiled and bugger me if they didn't use a tonne of styling cues from it for the Evora.



Obv it became a 4 seater, and lardy, but still, there's a lot of Evora in the M250. Hmmm rose tinted specs I suppose on that front.

I still want an Esprit though damnit

[Gompo]

I was surprised to read that Lotus had 45 dealers in the US; how many do we have in the UK? Not saying there's anything wrong with the 45 if they're doing their job and the business is there, but I am guessing that's about three times as many as we have? They're supposedly going to survive the period without the Evora by selling the track/race cars over there?

Lotus have to compromise to survive, but need to keep their, or atleast have, a USP or they'll just lose out to bigger names anyway. I don't think just being light, which the Evora isn't anyway, really cuts it anymore. Not unless they can manage to downsize successfully.

[Bebee]

I'm not sure more dealers is the answer, it's a specialist Marque, if you want a specialist car, you travel to a specialist dealer.

Selling on the past is the right way, the older the Lotus name gets the more romantic it gets, just as in the Morgan.
Romantic yet full on balls out fast, light weight, super handling, modern, yet without losing site of the heritage, keep plugging the past Lotus!

[otolith]

Presumably the U.S. dealers also sell other marques- and I had the impression there was enough stock to get through the gap.

[Tuna]

Oddball RS said:

And as for cylinder count I don't follow you? cylinder count is on the drop at all manufacturers as it rev limit, its 2014!, putting large capacity heavy lumps in a car is NOT the Lotus ethos. (Do you forget the new Alfa is a 4 pot?) Caterham V12 anyone? this is the existing Lotus market place - the new one died with Bahahahaha. And before you come back with a reply yes I have, and I have owned three since 2000. They need to be light weight, dynamically sharp and pretty at a reasonable price. That way the -ve points can be forgiven. A supercharged V6 Elise is as out of date as a V8 AMG C Class - and evolutionary dead end (that is not my opinion or wish on either count but it is still true).

I'm really just saying that there is a lot of talk on here of improving sales by going for different engines - but there's no magic power plant that will guarantee sales, so it's not worth the cost and complexity of changing that before they address other more significant issues. Whilst people will point to an engine as something that puts them off a particular car, the right package will sell regardless of what powers it.

You're right that the industry is moving towards fewer cylinders with forced induction - but I'm under the impression that's due to emissions legislation rather than customer demand. You say that a V6 Elise is out of date, but the V6 Exige outsells the 4 pot Elise in the current line up, so where does that leave us?

[Dynamic Turtle]

^^^ absolutely correct.

[Tuna]

juansolo said:

Actually I might have to eat my words a little here. I've revisited the pics I took of the M250 when it was unveiled and bugger me if they didn't use a tonne of styling cues from it for the Evora.
..

Obv it became a 4 seater, and lardy, but still, there's a lot of Evora in the M250. Hmmm rose tinted specs I suppose on that front.

I still want an Esprit though damnit

Strangely in retrospect I don't think the M250 wore its size as well as the Evora - it was a surprisingly big car in person given it was 'just a 2 seater'. At the time though, I loved the shapes, the echoes of the Stratos and the idea of a GT 'big brother' to the Elise.

So far none of the 'new Esprit' designs I've seen have had the impact of the original car (or even of the M250) - if they can get into a position to produce it, I'd be looking for something that is uncompromising and unique. I'd love to see it, but only after the bread and butter range is stable and profitable.

[Tuna]

juansolo said:

Porsche are mass market cars, they have more in common with Ford than Lotus. Lotus are more like Caterham and Morgan (previously TVR and Noble too), in so much that they're a low volume specialist manufacturer with a niche market. Lotus will never, ever sell as many cars as Porsche.

From their current situation, of course you're right. The thing is I feel their current range should be selling in higher numbers than it is. Not in Porsche numbers, but certainly in numbers that allow the company to grow. The things that are limiting sales are as much the brand reputation (for the last decade permanently about to go under), poor dealership network and confused positioning within the market. With those limitations, a new Esprit wouldn't save the company unless it outclassed every other supercar currently on sale. That's a gamble too far. So I'm just suggesting they need to get the consistency and stability right first which would make for a better halo car when they're in a position to develop it properly.

[RedTrident]

So what are these updated Evoras going to feature. Obviously a convertible version but anything else? It is most likely the first of the Lotus cars that Gales will put his philosophy into practice.

[Frimley111R]

Not sure but there's definately an 'R' version on its way although what this is is anyone's guess atm.

There's all this talk of Chapman's philosophy but which road cars ever demonstrated this apart from the 7 and Elise?

[kambites]

Frimley111R said:

There's all this talk of Chapman's philosophy but which road cars ever demonstrated this apart from the 7 and Elise?

The Elan was pretty damned light compared to its competition.