Bore scoring potential dispute with dealer
Discussion
turboteeth said:
I would imagine if yours drives ok and has not actually failed as such, a warranty claim is unlikely to be successful. Have you tried speaking to a friendly Pork Indy to get their views?
It is a bit of a tough one as it's not as it's supposed to be and it will eventually go pop as sure as eggs is eggs but as I said in the first post my view is that the garage that sold me the car not the warranty company should take responsibility as they sold it with the faultSpeckledJim said:
If you've driven through the problem for 7 months and 5,000 miles there's no way anyone will be giving you a new engine, sorry.
As I have said in a previous post In that 7 months 4 were spent trying to get the garage to take me seriously and the other 3 i have mostly spent out of the country. As I bought the car from a dealer half way down the country a thousand of the 5k I've put on it have been tripping down there to try and get it sorted.Monkeynut21 said:
SpeckledJim said:
If you've driven through the problem for 7 months and 5,000 miles there's no way anyone will be giving you a new engine, sorry.
As I have said in a previous post In that 7 months 4 were spent trying to get the garage to take me seriously and the other 3 i have mostly spent out of the country. As I bought the car from a dealer half way down the country a thousand of the 5k I've put on it have been tripping down there to try and get it sorted.Monkeynut21 said:
As I have said in a previous post In that 7 months 4 were spent trying to get the garage to take me seriously and the other 3 i have mostly spent out of the country. As I bought the car from a dealer half way down the country a thousand of the 5k I've put on it have been tripping down there to try and get it sorted.
It may be worth posting this on the Porsche forum. Also speak to Hartech for more detailed info on this issue.I'd hate to hijack this thread but my car had the same problems I presume and the previous owner had a full engine rebuild by Hartech. Uprated liners, pistons, Low Temp Thermostat, uprated IMS bearing all backed up by invoices from them.
I'm thinking of selling. Would this kind of history make the car more saleable to those in the know?
I'm thinking of selling. Would this kind of history make the car more saleable to those in the know?
SpeckledJim said:
That doesn't really work in your favour. The dealer will suggest that if the problem is so bad, why hasn't it caused an actual definable problem over all that time and mileage?
The definable problem is bore scoring. It is not a problem the goes from good to bad in a short space of time, but it WILL go bad.KungFuPanda said:
I'd hate to hijack this thread but my car had the same problems I presume and the previous owner had a full engine rebuild by Hartech. Uprated liners, pistons, Low Temp Thermostat, uprated IMS bearing all backed up by invoices from them.
I'm thinking of selling. Would this kind of history make the car more saleable to those in the know?
Personally I would say yes as it's been done at hartech with good documentation to back it up. I'm thinking of selling. Would this kind of history make the car more saleable to those in the know?
Monkeynut21 said:
SpeckledJim said:
That doesn't really work in your favour. The dealer will suggest that if the problem is so bad, why hasn't it caused an actual definable problem over all that time and mileage?
The definable problem is bore scoring. It is not a problem the goes from good to bad in a short space of time, but it WILL go bad.The engine might well be 80% of the way to failure, but that might also be true of every bush on the car, but you can't reasonably ask for them all to be changed.
Things that are 7 years old can wear out, and that's especially true of these famously flaky Porsche engines. All used cars are somewhere on the way to breaking down, but before that actually happens, you can't really hang your hat on anything.
If the engine had actually properly let go within a few months of buying it, I think you'd have a better case. This is in the awkward hinterland between 'not a problem, they all do that' and 'failure'.
Monkeynut21 said:
As I have said in a previous post In that 7 months 4 were spent trying to get the garage to take me seriously and the other 3 i have mostly spent out of the country. As I bought the car from a dealer half way down the country a thousand of the 5k I've put on it have been tripping down there to try and get it sorted.
I wouldnt listen to anyone that says its your fault, f
k what do they want you to take the engine apart and check for what exactly. You told the dealer about it they said they said no fault. I would be pushing for a full refund or new engine After 7 months and 5,000 miles, I think you need to decide on whether you want to fix it, or get someone else to pay for it to get fixed. One may happen, one probably won't.
I agree with the previous post, if the dealer was going to do it, it would be done by now.
I think that a good advisor would have told you to not use the car as soon as you suspected the fault. Even if you can get the dealer to pay (which after this time/distance I doubt), I think they have an argument that you have made the fault worse and so their liability is reduced.
I agree with the previous post, if the dealer was going to do it, it would be done by now.
I think that a good advisor would have told you to not use the car as soon as you suspected the fault. Even if you can get the dealer to pay (which after this time/distance I doubt), I think they have an argument that you have made the fault worse and so their liability is reduced.
Monkeynut21 said:
The definable problem is bore scoring. It is not a problem the goes from good to bad in a short space of time, but it WILL go bad.
Good job I design engines for a living and examine them as part of my job.The issue you have is excessive oil consumption and running rough.
The bore scoping shows you have scratched or scored bores.
The excessive oil consumption will result in excessive carbon deposits in the combustion chamber and eventually a pre-ignition related engine failure. You don't want that.
The simple fact is that the dealer you bought the car from wants to avoid the costs of a claim and has found every way to make this cost go away in what could be considered a reasonable time.
The best thing you can do is make a claim and get the car fixed, then report the dealer to trading standards and any other watchdog, then use any warning or conviction as the basis for your small claims court case against them for the excess. Remember, if they fail to show up for the case you win.
It's a huge inconvenience, but you need the car to work and trying to get it fixed by a hostile garage is not going to end well when they have a track record of cutting corners.
Oil useage is very obviously excessive.
You were trying to resolve the issue while using the car. I can't see how you can be blamed for that.
Last time I bought a borescope it cost all of £15!
Who are these clowns? (I know you can't "name and shame" -- take that as an expression of disbelief/outrage.)
Get yourself a decent lawyer and have at them.
You were trying to resolve the issue while using the car. I can't see how you can be blamed for that.
Last time I bought a borescope it cost all of £15!
Who are these clowns? (I know you can't "name and shame" -- take that as an expression of disbelief/outrage.)
Get yourself a decent lawyer and have at them.
I am by no means a Porsche expert, in fact I know almost nothing about them. I presume that the issue you are experiencing, which appears to be a well known fault, is something that develops over a long period and normally after the manufacturer's warranty period has expired.
There are plenty of examples across most marques of recalls being issued well after the warranty period though these are generally safety critical items. Do Porsche recognise this as a manufacturing issue? Is it well known enough to argue that a specialist dealer could be reasonably expected to be aware of it? Given your circumstances I think this may be your only viable approach as your warranty company won't touch it if it is a known fault and I suspect a normal SOGA challenge would fail on age/mileage and time expired since the fault presented.
What would a rebuild cost and have you considered offering to make a contribution towards it?
There are plenty of examples across most marques of recalls being issued well after the warranty period though these are generally safety critical items. Do Porsche recognise this as a manufacturing issue? Is it well known enough to argue that a specialist dealer could be reasonably expected to be aware of it? Given your circumstances I think this may be your only viable approach as your warranty company won't touch it if it is a known fault and I suspect a normal SOGA challenge would fail on age/mileage and time expired since the fault presented.
What would a rebuild cost and have you considered offering to make a contribution towards it?
SpeckledJim said:
Yes, but if it hasn't gone bad yet (after 5000 miles), you can't point to a specific failure and ask to have it fixed. You have a used car that works.
The engine might well be 80% of the way to failure, but that might also be true of every bush on the car, but you can't reasonably ask for them all to be changed.
Things that are 7 years old can wear out, and that's especially true of these famously flaky Porsche engines. All used cars are somewhere on the way to breaking down, but before that actually happens, you can't really hang your hat on anything.
If the engine had actually properly let go within a few months of buying it, I think you'd have a better case. This is in the awkward hinterland between 'not a problem, they all do that' and 'failure'.
I'm afraid I cannot agree with your logic. Are you really implying that the engine of a car is a consumable part in the same way as a bush? I can accept that all the parts of a car have a design life, a tyre 1 year, brake pads 2 years, bushes 5 years, that's fine but to say that an engine showing sighs of failure after only 60k is fair wear and tear is stretching things too far in my opinion, especially when you consider that the average euro box will quite happily manage 200k and will most likely be scraped not for engine failure but because of some other costly repair. The engine might well be 80% of the way to failure, but that might also be true of every bush on the car, but you can't reasonably ask for them all to be changed.
Things that are 7 years old can wear out, and that's especially true of these famously flaky Porsche engines. All used cars are somewhere on the way to breaking down, but before that actually happens, you can't really hang your hat on anything.
If the engine had actually properly let go within a few months of buying it, I think you'd have a better case. This is in the awkward hinterland between 'not a problem, they all do that' and 'failure'.
Lets say for the sake of argument that I do accept that an engine is a consumable item and that the present damage is fair wear and tear, you state that I "can't point to a specific failure", bore scoring is a very specific failure it may not be a catastrophic failure but it is still a failure. To use a similar analogy as your bush, if you have a wheel bearing that is grumbling and showing the first sighs of failure, is that bearing broken? do you fix it now and prevent future problems and extra expense or do you leave it till it collapses and causes more damage. Personally I think if a part is not working the way a designer intended it too then it's broken/failed.
My argument with the garage is very simple. You sold me a car with damage that will lead to catastrophic failure I believe you are responsible for the repair. They will either agree or not I will have to wait and see.
Edited by Monkeynut21 on Wednesday 1st October 16:36
SpeckledJim said:
Fair enough. I think they'll say:
"loads of these cars do that. It's been doing that for at least 7 months and at least 5,000 miles without breaking. It doesn't need fixing. Old cars often use oil."
But, honestly, good luck.
Worn out/broken cars use vast quantities of oil. Old cars in good working order do not."loads of these cars do that. It's been doing that for at least 7 months and at least 5,000 miles without breaking. It doesn't need fixing. Old cars often use oil."
But, honestly, good luck.
I remember one of the manufacturers listing 'acceptable' oil consumption every thousand miles (not sure if it was porshe?) - I think that went upto 1 ltr per thousand miles which seems very high for a 'good' engine.
Does your car have such a recommendation? - Surely if consumption is above this 'official' figure it may help the argument.
Does your car have such a recommendation? - Surely if consumption is above this 'official' figure it may help the argument.
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