'Street racer' jailed because somebody else crashed.
Discussion
R_U_LOCAL said:
Incitement keeps being mentioned in this thread, but it is completely irrelevent.
This driver was not convicted of an offence involving incitement of any kind.
He was convicted and sentenced on the basis of his own actions, and the outcome of those actions. That is all.
So what is the definition of causing death by dangerous driving? I mean his driving only killed someone in the sense that it was copied by someone else. He didn't actually crash into or hit anyone did he? Surely his action that caused death was incitement to make someone else drive dangerously?This driver was not convicted of an offence involving incitement of any kind.
He was convicted and sentenced on the basis of his own actions, and the outcome of those actions. That is all.
Bit worrying that...if I fly round a corner in my kitcar and some yoof behind me that I was only dimly aware of tries to emulate it in his Saxo and kills himself and all his passengers would I be liable?
Edited by T0MMY on Thursday 2nd October 19:08
T0MMY said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Incitement keeps being mentioned in this thread, but it is completely irrelevent.
This driver was not convicted of an offence involving incitement of any kind.
He was convicted and sentenced on the basis of his own actions, and the outcome of those actions. That is all.
So what is the definition of causing death by dangerous driving? I mean his driving only killed someone in the sense that it was copied by someone else. He didn't actually crash into or hit anyone did he? Surely his action that caused death was incitement to make someone else drive dangerously?This driver was not convicted of an offence involving incitement of any kind.
He was convicted and sentenced on the basis of his own actions, and the outcome of those actions. That is all.
Bit worrying that...if I fly round a corner in my kitcar and some yoof behind me that I was only dimly aware of tries to emulate it in his Saxo and kills himself and all his passengers would I be liable?
Edited by T0MMY on Thursday 2nd October 19:08
Ok so he was charged on the basis that his dangerous driving was a cause of the deaths?
I'm still not sure I fully agree...his goading to race was what caused the death, not the manner in which he then drove. For example, what if he goaded her into a race but then he himself had not driven dangerously? Could he still be charged? I mean if he was alongside at a light, made some gesture or revved his engine then just pulled away normally whilst she shot away, kept her foot in and piled into the Xsara?
I'm still not sure I fully agree...his goading to race was what caused the death, not the manner in which he then drove. For example, what if he goaded her into a race but then he himself had not driven dangerously? Could he still be charged? I mean if he was alongside at a light, made some gesture or revved his engine then just pulled away normally whilst she shot away, kept her foot in and piled into the Xsara?
T0MMY said:
I'm still not sure I fully agree...his goading to race was what caused the death, not the manner in which he then drove. For example, what if he goaded her into a race but then he himself had not driven dangerously? Could he still be charged?
This is interesting. Hypothetically, lets say it was just the Fiat 500 on it's own, and no other car to race against. The passenger is egging her on to drive quicker and quicker and then resulted in this same incident. If the passenger were to survive, would they be convicted of causing death by dangerous driving?Snollygoster said:
This is interesting. Hypothetically, lets say it was just the Fiat 500 on it's own, and no other car to race against. The passenger is egging her on to drive quicker and quicker and then resulted in this same incident. If the passenger were to survive, would they be convicted of causing death by dangerous driving?
uh, no.because they weren't driving.
T0MMY said:
Ok so he was charged on the basis that his dangerous driving was a cause of the deaths?
I'm still not sure I fully agree...his goading to race was what caused the death, not the manner in which he then drove. For example, what if he goaded her into a race but then he himself had not driven dangerously? Could he still be charged? I mean if he was alongside at a light, made some gesture or revved his engine then just pulled away normally whilst she shot away, kept her foot in and piled into the Xsara?
Street racing is illegal, that's the first thing. He'd be charged for that. If you goad someone into racing then you're an idiot regardless of if you do it, howeverI'm still not sure I fully agree...his goading to race was what caused the death, not the manner in which he then drove. For example, what if he goaded her into a race but then he himself had not driven dangerously? Could he still be charged? I mean if he was alongside at a light, made some gesture or revved his engine then just pulled away normally whilst she shot away, kept her foot in and piled into the Xsara?
He WAS driving like a bellend. 70 in a 30 etc. Regardless of what happened lets just admit that.
He was driving that quickly, someone watched it and tried to keep up and killed someone.
If he wasn't driving that quickly, then the girl doesn't drive as quickly and the poor people that were killed might survive.
At the end of the day, if he wasn't doing 70 in a 30, this doesn't happen at all. Once you consider that fact, then it's not an issue that he got charged.
Marc p said:
vtecyo said:
Unfortunately I think stories like this will make people less inclined to stop. The lorry driver who (according to the police report) caused the death of a very good friend of mine back in 2009 never did and he's still out there somewhere.
irocfan said:
given the general public's view seems to be edging on toward the viewpoint that any overtake is dangerous and only done by 'racers' this is a worrying thought vis-a-vis 'witnesses'
These are VERY valid points, I was involved in an accident that I detailed on here some time ago and I don't wish to go into details, but in brief, I had a car that lost control and killed a passenger when trying to overtake me, I stopped and rang 999, tried to help, another car came and watched me, police came and took statements, I was arrested and they tried to prosecute me with death by dangerous driving as I had overtaken the other witnesses car about 30 seconds before the other car and she told the police that we were racing, thankfully the charges were dropped, but I do see why people would not stop at a crash as it seems a possibility of a prison sentance is there if they do.Just to add, I did not know the other driver, I was not racing, I went out for food, fastest speed i probably hit was 65 overtaking the 'witness', she was doing 45mph in a very open 60 zone.
I never knowingly race people on the roads, but I do have a loud and shouty car and do overtake people. I always have a niggling worry about ending in a race with someone but only them knowing about it incase this should happen. Even the arrest and dropped charges are something I would really resent.
The XF attracts a lot of comments when stationary which is fine. My TVR though compels every Vauxhall Insignia driver in sight to catch up and overtake ASAP to prove some kind of point to themselves, and I have had keen looking young lads catch me up on the dual carriageway to wind down their windows and photo or video my car from their camera phones. I have once slowed down to give a lad some overrun bangs and then accelerated hard back up to my original (and legal) cruising speed which looking back maybe wasn't that ingenious but I never 'tow' them to faster speeds. However, it's clear that whilst probably genuinely enthusiastic and always friendly lads, they're not concentrating on driving their own cars if they're gawking at mine. My Cerbera is loud enough to sound like it's being thrashed to most A-to-B road users too whatever speed I'm doing so I wouldn't hold out much hope for helpful witness statements.
Am I over-thinking this? Perhaps it's just not possible to enjoy non-grey cars on public roads any more because of other peoples' reactions and perceptions to anything loud, sporty or a bit unusual? I'd hate to think that was the case. I really don't see the appeal of Q-cars.
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Friday 3rd October 03:19
There seems to be a lot of paranoia on this thread, the person in this article had arranged races with people on the public roads which lead to two serious accidents in a short space of time. Unless you drive like a bell end yourself and leave a trail of carnage in your wake then I can't really see that you would have much to worry about.
F1GTRUeno said:
If he wasn't driving that quickly, then the girl doesn't drive as quickly and the poor people that were killed might survive.
That's the bit that worries me though...the idea that the girl had no choice but to drive quickly because he was driving quickly. She made the decision to emulate his driving, he didn't force her in any way whatsoever.Like I say, what if I'm driving in a spirited fashion and some yoof decides to copy me then crashes?
Fundamentally, whilst he was himself driving dangerously (and should be charged with that in isolation) he didn't cause death by dangerous driving, she did. She was not coerced in any way at all to do this, I mean christ, some kid just stabbed his GF to death emulating Dexter from the US crime show of the same name...where should being held responsible for people copying your behaviour end?
I'm not defending the guy really, he's obviously a t
t but the implications of this worry me slightly. I also found it a bit ridiculous how the newspaper reports seem to paint the girl as a poor innocent victim of this guy. I mean FFS...she was doing 70+ in a 30 and killed 2 people as result...we can argue about how much blame the guy should share but she definitely is the biggest villain in this. monthefish said:
Seriously?
If XXXXXXX* hadn't YYYYYYYYY* they would still be getting on with their lives.
(* insert your own words here. There are thousands of possible combinations)
e.g. If the girl hadn't forgotten to lock her front door before setting off, the cars would never have come across one another each other and would never have raced and they would still be getting on with their lives.
Yes seriously, it's not about fate or a unlocked door, it's about an idiot doing something which whether you agree or not ended up killing 2 completely innocent people (and one other person who was responsible). Which as others have said he admitted too, and as pointed out he has previous for.If XXXXXXX* hadn't YYYYYYYYY* they would still be getting on with their lives.
(* insert your own words here. There are thousands of possible combinations)
e.g. If the girl hadn't forgotten to lock her front door before setting off, the cars would never have come across one another each other and would never have raced and they would still be getting on with their lives.
T0MMY said:
That's the bit that worries me though...the idea that the girl had no choice but to drive quickly because he was driving quickly. She made the decision to emulate his driving, he didn't force her in any way whatsoever.
Like I say, what if I'm driving in a spirited fashion and some yoof decides to copy me then crashes?
This is NOT the point to take away from this story.Like I say, what if I'm driving in a spirited fashion and some yoof decides to copy me then crashes?
He pleaded guilty.
Hence there was NO consideration of any compulsion or anything else. That's just a media line. He fessed up.
[quote]
Fundamentally, whilst he was himself driving dangerously (and should be charged with that in isolation) he didn't cause death by dangerous driving, she did. She was not coerced in any way at all to do this, I mean christ, some kid just stabbed his GF to death emulating Dexter from the US crime show of the same name...where should being held responsible for people copying your behaviour end?
Read first, post later: http://www.e-lawresources.co.uk/Causation-in-crimi...
"The defendant's action need not be the sole cause of the resulting harm, but it must be more than minimal"
Overtaking someone is minimal.
Overtaking while gesturing to speed up, pulling in and out, is not minimal.
[quote]
I'm not defending the guy really, he's obviously a t
t but the implications of this worry me slightly. BBC said:
Parker admitted a separate charge of causing serious injury by dangerous driving on 8 June last year.
He was driving the same car and racing a van which struck a pedestrian on a zebra crossing in Wheatley Hill.
Van driver Roy Morrison, 20, from Chester-le-Street, was jailed for three-and-a-half years after he was convicted of causing serious injury by dangerous driving.
He had previous, didnt learn his lesson and did it again and yet people here are defending him?! madness. The Govt could save millions if they hired racetracks for the day and let these morons throw their cars at tyre barriers all day rather than race on public roads.He was driving the same car and racing a van which struck a pedestrian on a zebra crossing in Wheatley Hill.
Van driver Roy Morrison, 20, from Chester-le-Street, was jailed for three-and-a-half years after he was convicted of causing serious injury by dangerous driving.
The moron deserves his spell in prison. How was he even still allowed to drive after a charge of causing serious injury by dangerous driving though?!
thelawnet said:
If YOUR driving is not dangerous (in law), you don't have a thing to worry about. You can't get done for 'causing death by driving safely'
But in what sense did his dangerous driving lead to her dangerous driving, other than that he goaded her into copying him? What if a passenger in a car goads the driver into driving like a tit?How about this: You're going down a narrow twisty NSL road at the speed limit in a sportscar with some idiot in an HGV deciding to try to keep up. You may not be driving dangerously but he is due to the size and weight of his vehicle. If he understeers his way into someone and kills them, from what you've said you can't be considered at fault. Is that correct?
pablo said:
He had previous, didnt learn his lesson and did it again and yet people here are defending him?! madness. The Govt could save millions if they hired racetracks for the day and let these morons throw their cars at tyre barriers all day rather than race on public roads.
The moron deserves his spell in prison. How was he even still allowed to drive after a charge of causing serious injury by dangerous driving though?!
I'm really not defending him as such...not agreeing with the way the law dealt with this case is not the same as agreeing with how he drove.The moron deserves his spell in prison. How was he even still allowed to drive after a charge of causing serious injury by dangerous driving though?!
T0MMY said:
But in what sense did his dangerous driving lead to her dangerous driving, other than that he goaded her into copying him? What if a passenger in a car goads the driver into driving like a tit?
It wasn't considered, because he pled guilty.If he had pled NOT guilty, then we would doubtless be hearing about what he did, which most likely amounts to much more than merely 'goading' (e.g., pre-arranged race meet-up, preventing the girl moving back onto the left side of the road as reported in the forum I linked to, etc.).
T0MMY said:
How about this: You're going down a narrow twisty NSL road at the speed limit in a sportscar with some idiot in an HGV deciding to try to keep up. You may not be driving dangerously but he is due to the size and weight of his vehicle. If he understeers his way into someone and kills them, from what you've said you can't be considered at fault. Is that correct?
Of course not. The offence is causing death by dangerous driving. Or on a lesser note death by careless driving.The exception here is death by driving while uninsured/disqualified/etc., and this CAN be proven without any bad driving.
Olivera said:
How is it possible to incite someone to race simply by overtaking them at speed? It's not quite like inciting someone to fight by spewing abuse in their face, or inciting rioting by others.
The incitement is very much secondary after the sheer stupidity of the young female driver who died.
The incitement is primary, the stupidity follows by reacting to the incitement.The incitement is very much secondary after the sheer stupidity of the young female driver who died.
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