'Street racer' jailed because somebody else crashed.
Discussion
I’m not in anyway defending the actions of the driver – if the report is correct he appears to be a menace and the roads are safer with him behind bars.
However, the type/level of the conviction does seem odd as it looks like he is being punished for the actions of another, over whom he had no direct influence: How would he, or anyone for that matter, know how another driver would react to being overtaken?
Or another scenario: When a driver is being pursued by the police and they crash into another road user, why isn’t the police driver charged? After all, using the same “logic” as this case, it could it not be argued that if the police driver didn’t initiate the pursuit the crash would probably not have happened and therefore the police driver bears some responsibility for the crash?
(And no, I’m not suggesting that police shouldn’t pursue suspects)
However, the type/level of the conviction does seem odd as it looks like he is being punished for the actions of another, over whom he had no direct influence: How would he, or anyone for that matter, know how another driver would react to being overtaken?
Or another scenario: When a driver is being pursued by the police and they crash into another road user, why isn’t the police driver charged? After all, using the same “logic” as this case, it could it not be argued that if the police driver didn’t initiate the pursuit the crash would probably not have happened and therefore the police driver bears some responsibility for the crash?
(And no, I’m not suggesting that police shouldn’t pursue suspects)
I was driving through a 30 limit at the speed limit when a car I'd never seen before drove up behind me and started to tailgate me, ahead was a national speed limit sign followed by a left hand bend. At the sign I accelerated and drove round the corner. I think the tailgater tried to keep up with me because after the corner I looked in the mirror to see him sliding sideways across the centre line, straight towards a lorry going the other way. He missed hitting the lorry by no more than a few feet.
Did I incite him to try and keep up with me? Were we racing, even though I was unaware?
Did I incite him to try and keep up with me? Were we racing, even though I was unaware?
It seems like there was plenty more to it than merely overtaking someone. The Graun fleshes it out a bit more:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/01/dri...
What do you lot want to constitute incitement? If you merely zoom past someone it's probably not. If you communicate with them in some form it might be. What if you know them? What if it's obvious that someone is trying to keep up and you press on? Many factors like that will change things.
I think in the 100mph red light example, you should be judged on the outcome, which is foreseeable. Obviously not entirely you whilst the other party goes free, but in this case the other party is dead.
Noone in particular but I find some of the attitudes on here a bit disappointing.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/01/dri...
What do you lot want to constitute incitement? If you merely zoom past someone it's probably not. If you communicate with them in some form it might be. What if you know them? What if it's obvious that someone is trying to keep up and you press on? Many factors like that will change things.
I think in the 100mph red light example, you should be judged on the outcome, which is foreseeable. Obviously not entirely you whilst the other party goes free, but in this case the other party is dead.
Noone in particular but I find some of the attitudes on here a bit disappointing.
You have to read the piece to appreciate that one of the three fatalities was the "dopey young woman", this wasn't made clear in the OP.
Someone has to be blamed, and goading or not, he was doing 70 in a 30 zone and contributed in no small amount to people now having to go on without wives/mothers. As the feckless young lady of the other car essentially served her sentence, the street racer has to be held responsible.
I'm not condoning racing, but if you really must contest your penis size, then make sure you do it away from everyone else and against someone you know.
Better yet, do it at a karting track.
Someone has to be blamed, and goading or not, he was doing 70 in a 30 zone and contributed in no small amount to people now having to go on without wives/mothers. As the feckless young lady of the other car essentially served her sentence, the street racer has to be held responsible.
I'm not condoning racing, but if you really must contest your penis size, then make sure you do it away from everyone else and against someone you know.
Better yet, do it at a karting track.
Puddenchucker said:
Or another scenario: When a driver is being pursued by the police and they crash into another road user, why isn’t the police driver charged? After all, using the same “logic” as this case, it could it not be argued that if the police driver didn’t initiate the pursuit the crash would probably not have happened and therefore the police driver bears some responsibility for the crash?
(And no, I’m not suggesting that police shouldn’t pursue suspects)
To the extent that the police are effectively charged with anything, this does happen. Pursuits must balance the objectives against the risk to safety, and often they're abandoned because of it. Officers get investigated as to why they initiated or continued with a pursuit that ended in a fatality. (And no, I’m not suggesting that police shouldn’t pursue suspects)
trashbat said:
What do you lot want to constitute incitement? If you merely zoom past someone it's probably not. If you communicate with them in some form it might be. What if you know them? What if it's obvious that someone is trying to keep up and you press on? Many factors like that will change things.
I don't deny there was an element of incitement, but the stupidity of the young woman to get involved supersedes this when apportioning blame for the fatal crash.There was simply no compulsion to involve oneself.
If you have a nice car or a car that looks fast there will always be people who want to take you on and race you. If the result is an accident and you were seen driving along in a BMW M3 or suchlike with someone in a chavved up hatchback trying to overtake you there will no doubt be plenty of witnesses coming forward saying they saw two high performance cars racing. Especially if you've just overtaken them with the other guy in pursuit.
I think aggravating factors in this case were the previous accident and the silly speeds he was doing in a 30mph limit. Plus news articles rarely manage to get the full facts of an incident right, we don't know if he did just randomly overtake these girls or if there was more to it.
I've always been vary wary of who I've got into a car with just so I don't end up a passenger with someone who is liable to show off in stupid ways or race other people. It's something parents of teenagers need to instill in their sons and daughters. Don't just teach them to be safe drivers themselves, teach them not to get into cars with idiots.
I think aggravating factors in this case were the previous accident and the silly speeds he was doing in a 30mph limit. Plus news articles rarely manage to get the full facts of an incident right, we don't know if he did just randomly overtake these girls or if there was more to it.
I've always been vary wary of who I've got into a car with just so I don't end up a passenger with someone who is liable to show off in stupid ways or race other people. It's something parents of teenagers need to instill in their sons and daughters. Don't just teach them to be safe drivers themselves, teach them not to get into cars with idiots.
Blakewater said:
If you have a nice car or a car that looks fast there will always be people who want to take you on and race you. If the result is an accident and you were seen driving along in a BMW M3 or suchlike with someone in a chavved up hatchback trying to overtake you there will no doubt be plenty of witnesses coming forward saying they saw two high performance cars racing. Especially if you've just overtaken them with the other guy in pursuit.
Funnily enough a friend of mine was on the Ring Road in his orange S3, an M3 come flying past him, into the roundabout and wiped an old lady out. The M3 took off and my friend stopped to help. He was absolutely petrified that people were going to think that he was racing! Fortunately nothing came of it.Olivera said:
I don't deny there was an element of incitement, but the stupidity of the young woman to get involved supersedes this when apportioning blame for the fatal crash. There was simply no compulsion to involve oneself.
Maybe, but something of a moot point, since the sentence for her in this case was death, and so he gets off lightly in comparison, don't you think?In an ideal and/or peculiarly libertarian world, you might be judged on your actions alone in a vacuum, but in the present one we inhabit, we are social animals that have a degree of influence over each other. It shouldn't be that surprising that you can be severely punished for misusing that influence, which is itself a failure of personal responsibility.
StottyEvo said:
I respectfully disagree.
As an example, you could be having a "race" with another car on a clear striaght dual carriageway with no other cars around in reasonible safety. If lights ahead turn red and you slow and stop, and the other car decided to do the red at 100+ for no reason whatsoever, and whipes out a family... I don't feel as though the person who was racing and stopped should be punished for anything other than racing.
That's not what the case is about though, it's not about a race on a straight clear dual carriageway, it was a race through a town, therefore I agree with the judge. As an example, you could be having a "race" with another car on a clear striaght dual carriageway with no other cars around in reasonible safety. If lights ahead turn red and you slow and stop, and the other car decided to do the red at 100+ for no reason whatsoever, and whipes out a family... I don't feel as though the person who was racing and stopped should be punished for anything other than racing.
Your example may or may not be the same, a judge and jury would decide if it was based on the facts at the time, I'm still of the same opinion if you get involved in this stuff on a public road you should be man enough to be responsible for any outcome of the stupidity.
R_U_LOCAL said:
For 1, the description of his driving sounds like it would easily pass the "well below the standard of a careful and competent driver" test.
For 2, the only thing the prosecution need to prove is that his driving was a cause - not the cause - of death. It only needs to be a negligible cause of death for the offence to be complete.
[/footnote]
I was a bit concerned about the 'negligible' part of the second clause, after all if someone decides to drive like an idiot just because you are in an Impreza (yes, this did happen to me) then you are liable for them killing someone. I read it again and I do hope that my conclusion that the first clause has to be proved before the second can apply is correct?For 2, the only thing the prosecution need to prove is that his driving was a cause - not the cause - of death. It only needs to be a negligible cause of death for the offence to be complete.
[/footnote]
northandy said:
StottyEvo said:
I respectfully disagree.
As an example, you could be having a "race" with another car on a clear striaght dual carriageway with no other cars around in reasonible safety. If lights ahead turn red and you slow and stop, and the other car decided to do the red at 100+ for no reason whatsoever, and whipes out a family... I don't feel as though the person who was racing and stopped should be punished for anything other than racing.
That's not what the case is about though, it's not about a race on a straight clear dual carriageway, it was a race through a town, therefore I agree with the judge. As an example, you could be having a "race" with another car on a clear striaght dual carriageway with no other cars around in reasonible safety. If lights ahead turn red and you slow and stop, and the other car decided to do the red at 100+ for no reason whatsoever, and whipes out a family... I don't feel as though the person who was racing and stopped should be punished for anything other than racing.
Your example may or may not be the same, a judge and jury would decide if it was based on the facts at the time, I'm still of the same opinion if you get involved in this stuff on a public road you should be man enough to be responsible for any outcome of the stupidity.
All issues of the defendant's culpability left behind, what really leaves a bitter taste for me is all this s
t from the judge about how he - and the overwhelming implication is that it was he alone - "shattered families".
Him. He who, no matter what risks he was taking, was not the one who overstepped the line in a sub-standard car and stacked it, killing three people. He who may well have done nothing at all to "incite a race" other than driving past someone quickly.
Doing 70mph in any 30mph zone is ridiculous and it's quite clear the guy liked to dick about on the roads, which is never on, but pinning these three deaths on him as if they're entirely his fault is completely unreasonable.
t from the judge about how he - and the overwhelming implication is that it was he alone - "shattered families".Him. He who, no matter what risks he was taking, was not the one who overstepped the line in a sub-standard car and stacked it, killing three people. He who may well have done nothing at all to "incite a race" other than driving past someone quickly.
Doing 70mph in any 30mph zone is ridiculous and it's quite clear the guy liked to dick about on the roads, which is never on, but pinning these three deaths on him as if they're entirely his fault is completely unreasonable.
trashbat said:
I'll make it myself: three people died, wholly avoidably. I don't know what you think would be a sensible punishment for that.
For the person who caused two deaths - had the (dead) driver survived - I think 12 years might be justified.For dangerous driving - which is all the lad was doing - I'd expect a year ban and a fine.
I understand the reasoning for charging a gang with a murder if they knew they were going to a fight and knew one was carrying a gun etc but now am I now liable for encouraging others ?
What if I "like" a stunt video on Youtube and a neighbour who idolises me, copies it and dies - am I now liable ? Is the video maker ?
The only person who killed anyone, is the dead driver - if she wasn't driving, no deaths would have occurred.
He sounds like a knobhead who belongs behind bars, so I'm not feeling any sympathy for him - however, the only person responsible for those deaths is the (dead) driver of the Fiat. His driving was likely to kill someone, but actually didn't.This is not the first time this has happened. There was a case a few years back with a Porsche. The assessment of dangerous driving is essentially subjective. I think someone driving reasonably safely (albeit speeding) in a very capable car could be in trouble if a kid in a hot hatch on ditchfinders binned it while trying to keep up, especially given a few witnesses who feel that being overtaken is de facto proof of dangerous driving.
The newspaper article is st.
I found one about the previous incident, and it makes it fairly plain that Mr. Parker didn't merely get up someone's arse to which they responded by driving like a.
Quote:
"A PEDESTRIAN suffered serious injuries when she was hit by a van as two young drivers had a race through village streets, a court was told yesterday.
Roy Morrison, 20, of Drum Lane Caravan Site in Chester-le-Street, County Durham, is alleged to have been driving the van on June 8 last year.
Another man, Jak Parker, of Crimdon Terrace, Blackhall Colliery, County Durham, has pleaded guilty to causing serious injury by dangerous driving.
The jury was told that the 23-year-old was behind the wheel of a high-powered MG XR which was seen to be racing the silver van shortly after midnight.
Prosecutor Robin Turton said neither of the vehicles stopped after the collision, but the van was noticed nearby by the victim's husband.
After Mr Morrison's arrest in nearby Horden half-an-hour later, he admitted being in Wheatley Hill to see a friend, but had not been in the crash.
He told police he had seen another silver van "fly down" and heard "screeching and screaming", said Mr Turton, before he drove out of the village.
Mr Turton told the jury that Parker, Mr Morrison and other friends were caught on CCTV earlier in the evening at a pub, and said it was "no coincidence".
He said there were very few vehicles on the road at the time, while an expert said the van was travelling at 71mph and the MG at 53mph in the 30mph zone.
In a statement read to the jury, the victim said she was crossing the road when she saw the two vehicles side-by-side with the van in the wrong carriageway."
So basically this piece of st Jak Parker met up with his mates at the pub and then arranged a street race, committed a hit and run, runining some woman's life, and then not satisfied with that, two weeks later did it again, causing the deaths of three people.
Chances are very high that he also knew the passenger/driver of the Fiat 500 as well, so it wasn't just a case of goading, but a second organised street race.
t.I found one about the previous incident, and it makes it fairly plain that Mr. Parker didn't merely get up someone's arse to which they responded by driving like a
. Quote:
"A PEDESTRIAN suffered serious injuries when she was hit by a van as two young drivers had a race through village streets, a court was told yesterday.
Roy Morrison, 20, of Drum Lane Caravan Site in Chester-le-Street, County Durham, is alleged to have been driving the van on June 8 last year.
Another man, Jak Parker, of Crimdon Terrace, Blackhall Colliery, County Durham, has pleaded guilty to causing serious injury by dangerous driving.
The jury was told that the 23-year-old was behind the wheel of a high-powered MG XR which was seen to be racing the silver van shortly after midnight.
Prosecutor Robin Turton said neither of the vehicles stopped after the collision, but the van was noticed nearby by the victim's husband.
After Mr Morrison's arrest in nearby Horden half-an-hour later, he admitted being in Wheatley Hill to see a friend, but had not been in the crash.
He told police he had seen another silver van "fly down" and heard "screeching and screaming", said Mr Turton, before he drove out of the village.
Mr Turton told the jury that Parker, Mr Morrison and other friends were caught on CCTV earlier in the evening at a pub, and said it was "no coincidence".
He said there were very few vehicles on the road at the time, while an expert said the van was travelling at 71mph and the MG at 53mph in the 30mph zone.
In a statement read to the jury, the victim said she was crossing the road when she saw the two vehicles side-by-side with the van in the wrong carriageway."
So basically this piece of s
t Jak Parker met up with his mates at the pub and then arranged a street race, committed a hit and run, runining some woman's life, and then not satisfied with that, two weeks later did it again, causing the deaths of three people.Chances are very high that he also knew the passenger/driver of the Fiat 500 as well, so it wasn't just a case of goading, but a second organised street race.
Reading the articles, the guy seems a complete hazard. And the fact his poor driving had cause injury to a pedestrian in the past is awful, but still... 12 years?
Incidentally thats the same as this guy got.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/violent-sex-a...
Justice is served!... isn't it?
Incidentally thats the same as this guy got.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/violent-sex-a...
Justice is served!... isn't it?
He got 10 years. Not 13. 10.
He also got 2.5 for a separate incident of driving like a fkwit.
Sentencing guidelines are here:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manu...
Level 2 means 'Greatly excessive speed, racing or competitive driving against another driver OR'
Level 1, which is worse, requires 'A prolonged, persistent and deliberate course of very bad driving '
"- The most serious offence encompassing driving that involved a deliberate decision to ignore (or a flagrant disregard for) the rules of the road and an apparent disregard for the great danger being caused to others. "
Sentencing range for Level 2 is 4-7 years, starting point is 5. And for level 1, 7-14, starting point is 8.
He has aggravating factors, specifically the three deaths (worse than 1), and the previous incident.
Assuming you accept that his driving was deliberate and prolonged, which it does seem to be, then 10 years seems about right. Also 'causing' in law doesn't require you to be the ONLY cause. The proximate cause of the deaths was the Fiat 500 colliding with the Citroen Xsara, but his driving is still a cause of the accident.
He will be out of prison before he turns 30, probably.
He also got 2.5 for a separate incident of driving like a f
kwit.Sentencing guidelines are here:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manu...
Level 2 means 'Greatly excessive speed, racing or competitive driving against another driver OR'
Level 1, which is worse, requires 'A prolonged, persistent and deliberate course of very bad driving '
"- The most serious offence encompassing driving that involved a deliberate decision to ignore (or a flagrant disregard for) the rules of the road and an apparent disregard for the great danger being caused to others. "
Sentencing range for Level 2 is 4-7 years, starting point is 5. And for level 1, 7-14, starting point is 8.
He has aggravating factors, specifically the three deaths (worse than 1), and the previous incident.
Assuming you accept that his driving was deliberate and prolonged, which it does seem to be, then 10 years seems about right. Also 'causing' in law doesn't require you to be the ONLY cause. The proximate cause of the deaths was the Fiat 500 colliding with the Citroen Xsara, but his driving is still a cause of the accident.
He will be out of prison before he turns 30, probably.
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