Buyer has paid finance off but disappeared

[gizlaroc]

red_slr said:

The finance company will be down £15k. The OP will be evens.
So the real loser here is the finance house?

No, the finance house will come after the OP. Don't care what is said, and what letter is sent to say they no longer have an interest, if that money is pulled back as the OP has paid of his account with stolen money, they will come after him.

[tobinen]

red_slr said:

O

If Mr X is not genuine (which lets face it as the OP has ever met him he may well not be) then he has now got himself the balance in "clean" money.
The finance company will be down £15k. The OP will be evens.
So the real loser here is the finance house?

I can't see it that way as the finance company is not parting with £15,000 - it's been paid. WBAC is buying the car.

[Du1point8]

tobinen said:

red_slr said:

O

If Mr X is not genuine (which lets face it as the OP has ever met him he may well not be) then he has now got himself the balance in "clean" money.
The finance company will be down £15k. The OP will be evens.
So the real loser here is the finance house?

I can't see it that way as the finance company is not parting with £15,000 - it's been paid. WBAC is buying the car.

If I give the finance dept £15k and you pay me £11.5k (minus £3.5k) into another account, then report the original £15k as fraudulent... I get that back on a bank charge.

For my initial outlay of £15k, I have almost doubled my money in a few weeks and you are out £11.5k and still owe the original debt of £15k.

A charge back can occur up to 6-12 months later.

[BL Fanboy]

Using a simpler scenario,

1) I'm selling a car for 10k. I owe 10K on finance.

2) Buyer comes along and pays finance company 10K.

3) Finance is discharged - I get a letter confirming so.

4) Buyer drives off in to the sunset.

HOWEVER Sometime later, I'm told that the buyer paid off the finance with funny money so finance asks for its 10k from me?

How was I supposed to know where the buyer got his money from? - I haven't seen the transaction details between him and the Finance company?

All those saying the money is going to be pulled back by the Finance company how so?

How can the OP be blamed (so to speak) for a financial transaction that he had no party to?

[BL Fanboy]

Sorry to add,

If I receiving money directly, its up to me to determine the validity of the funds - i.e fake notes etc.

Surely to goodness, its up to the finance company to check themselves and the buck stop with them?

We've all counted some money on the coffee table at home when a buyer comes to collect our old car. Its before the buyer departs that the check is made surely?

[Du1point8]

BL Fanboy said:

Using a simpler scenario,

1) I'm selling a car for 10k. I owe 10K on finance.

2) Buyer comes along and pays finance company 10K.

3) Finance is discharged - I get a letter confirming so.

4) Buyer drives off in to the sunset.

HOWEVER Sometime later, I'm told that the buyer paid off the finance with funny money so finance asks for its 10k from me?

How was I supposed to know where the buyer got his money from? - I haven't seen the transaction details between him and the Finance company?

All those saying the money is going to be pulled back by the Finance company how so?

How can the OP be blamed (so to speak) for a financial transaction that he had no party to?

If the OP got the 3rd party involved, then thats the first point.

If the OP pays a different account then he is liable/stupid.

OP should have got the buyer to visit him in the UK if he wants the car that bad, pay a transfer into OPs bank that can be verified by the bank, then OP pays the finance company off.

[illmonkey]

BL Fanboy said:

Using a simpler scenario,

1) I'm selling a car for 10k. I owe 10K on finance.

2) Buyer comes along and pays finance company 10K.

3) Finance is discharged - I get a letter confirming so.

4) Buyer drives off in to the sunset.

HOWEVER Sometime later, I'm told that the buyer paid off the finance with funny money so finance asks for its 10k from me?

How was I supposed to know where the buyer got his money from? - I haven't seen the transaction details between him and the Finance company?

All those saying the money is going to be pulled back by the Finance company how so?

How can the OP be blamed (so to speak) for a financial transaction that he had no party to?

As dodgy as it all seems, this does make sense. If someone used my card for a dodgy transaction (it's happened), I call up and ask for my money back. The bank probably writes it off as fraud. Won't this just be the same?

[BL Fanboy]

Du1point8 said:

If the OP got the 3rd party involved, then thats the first point.

If the OP pays a different account then he is liable/stupid.

OP should have got the buyer to visit him in the UK if he wants the car that bad, pay a transfer into OPs bank that can be verified by the bank, then OP pays the finance company off.

Ay? Op got the 3rd party involved? Not sure how that's relevant.

Arent you allowed to advertise a car yourself? Do you vet all potential buyers - perhaps 3 months payslips, 2 hour interview, 3 months bank statements? A Car market review?

Thought we'd covered the risks of paying money in to a sellers personal account before grasping the keys. A buyer might think it safer to pay a finance house directly as more secure?

[red_slr]

gizlaroc said:

red_slr said:

The finance company will be down £15k. The OP will be evens.
So the real loser here is the finance house?

No, the finance house will come after the OP. Don't care what is said, and what letter is sent to say they no longer have an interest, if that money is pulled back as the OP has paid of his account with stolen money, they will come after him.

How though?

Assuming its true re the letters from the finance company and the OP has no intent to defraud them - how can they come after him?
They are a regulated institution who have to be very specific on what they say or don't say.

They told the OP that he was clear, in writing. He even went out of his way to ask several times, including the fraud team.
A court will see he did everything he could to ensure it was legit (if his story is true).

The finance house should have made as many checks as possible before clearing his account. They accepted the money, they cleared the account, now its their problem.

Of course, it may be the case that the finance company have not said its ok - which is perhaps why the OP has been wobbling a bit?

I am going to guess its all going to come back and end up in court - but I just don't see how the OP can be considered responsible given both parties involved in handling the money were outside of his control.

I think the finance company will have to write this one off - I really do. I presume they are making so much money that perhaps they are willing to take the risk? Amazon are a classic example with their CVV code issue.. i.e they don't even ask for it - they self insure on the basis that 99.9% of all transactions are legit.

Its all very odd though.

[rallycross]

illmonkey said:

As dodgy as it all seems, this does make sense. If someone used my card for a dodgy transaction (it's happened), I call up and ask for my money back. The bank probably writes it off as fraud. Won't this just be the same?

No, its a case of fraud against the finance co, they come after the person who had the agreement with them (which is why he should have kept hold of the asset). Anyone who thinks the Finance Co will just write the £15k off without chasing OP is as daft as the OP appears to be.

Cant seem to find any examples of this scam being reported before, just a link to a US version (not the same though)

http://www.thefraudxperts.com/the-fraud-xperts-new...

Edited by rallycross on Tuesday 21st October 12:19

Edited by rallycross on Tuesday 21st October 12:27

[gizlaroc]

BL Fanboy said:

HOWEVER Sometime later, I'm told that the buyer paid off the finance with funny money so finance asks for its 10k from me?

How was I supposed to know where the buyer got his money from? - I haven't seen the transaction details between him and the Finance company?

Because it is YOUR account.

It doesn't matter who cleared YOUR account, YOU are responsible for it.

[gizlaroc]

BL Fanboy said:

Arent you allowed to advertise a car yourself? Do you vet all potential buyers - perhaps 3 months payslips, 2 hour interview, 3 months bank statements? A Car market review?

No, but you must take certain precautions.

I always ask for a copy of their driving license when clearing finance, and I want to meet the person as well.
If it is a forum member I will do it on trust, but a complete stranger I always ask for ID.
And everyone has understood, and it actually gives the buyer some confidence too that you are not some scammer yourself.

Not meeting someone, taking payment without seeing the car, and then sending money back to said person would not be classed as taking due care.

[gizlaroc]

red_slr said:

gizlaroc said:

red_slr said:

The finance company will be down £15k. The OP will be evens.
So the real loser here is the finance house?

No, the finance house will come after the OP. Don't care what is said, and what letter is sent to say they no longer have an interest, if that money is pulled back as the OP has paid of his account with stolen money, they will come after him.

How though?

Assuming its true re the letters from the finance company and the OP has no intent to defraud them - how can they come after him?
They are a regulated institution who have to be very specific on what they say or don't say.

They told the OP that he was clear, in writing. He even went out of his way to ask several times, including the fraud team.
A court will see he did everything he could to ensure it was legit (if his story is true).

The finance house should have made as many checks as possible before clearing his account. They accepted the money, they cleared the account, now its their problem.

Of course, it may be the case that the finance company have not said its ok - which is perhaps why the OP has been wobbling a bit?

I am going to guess its all going to come back and end up in court - but I just don't see how the OP can be considered responsible given both parties involved in handling the money were outside of his control.

I think the finance company will have to write this one off - I really do. I presume they are making so much money that perhaps they are willing to take the risk? Amazon are a classic example with their CVV code issue.. i.e they don't even ask for it - they self insure on the basis that 99.9% of all transactions are legit.

Its all very odd though.

You're missing the point.
It is YOUR account.
They presume that the funds YOU have paid to clear YOUR account are not stolen.
They will of course send a letter saying they have no interest in the vehicle, it has been paid, but if it gets pulled back they will start legal proceedings.


I have spoken to someone at Lombard and he has assured me that they would chase, the letter will state they no longer have an interest, and they would be happy to say they have done all the checks to make sure it was legit, but they can't guarantee this, and if it does get pulled he will get chased.

He did say that you have to be careful as Lombard have accounts settled constantly, every day there are hundreds closed, and they are very laid back about it. It is just another piece of paperwork to them. But if it gets returned they don't simply shrug their shoulders and walk away.



As far as the finance house is concerned YOU have settled the account.
They will hold YOU responsible for EVERYTHING.

To think they won't come after you if it is recalled is naive and bit stupid to be blunt.

[red_slr]

But their loan is secured on their vehicle.
They told him he is free to dispose of their vehicle as they no longer have interest in it.

I am not saying they wont try - but trying is one thing...

[BL Fanboy]

Interesting, thanks.

Basically, you're saying that effectively only "you" can clear your account, so effectively its "you" that is guaranteeing the validity of the buyers funds as they are presented to the finance house.

Scary and something that people should know. Thanks.

Now I get it, I'm absolutely astounded at the OP's actions and because they are so dumb (sorry)

I understand why folk have been calling troll because it looks like a fully engineered scenario to get folk wound up.

Seems like the OP is a person, the car is real, all the rest is wind up material.

I bet OP is laughing his socks off.

I don't care, I've learnt an awful lot about finance houses, money laundering, scams and trolls.

Edited by BL Fanboy on Tuesday 21st October 13:06

[gizlaroc]

red_slr said:

But their loan is secured on their vehicle.
They told him he is free to dispose of their vehicle as they no longer have interest in it.

I am not saying they wont try - but trying is one thing...

Yeah their loan is secured on the vehicle, and he has cleared the finance off, so he is free to dispose of it.

But if it turns out he has cleared the finance with stolen money and it is pulled back of course they will want it back again.


Jesus wept.

[gowmonster]

So if it does turn out to be fraud and the loan was secured against the car, is it a case of the finance company tracking down the the car and getting it back? what happens to the poor sod that buys it from that auction? I have read that if you buy a car privately and it's stolen/hpi on it, your gubbed but if you buy a car from a dealer and it's been stolen/hpi on it then it's yours and i can't remember what happens to the dealer (their insurance deals with it maybe?)

does the finance companies security against the car go away when they state that they have no interest on it? there must be rules for this HPI database thingy, are they defined anywhere or is that another minefield?

[red_slr]

But HE has not done anything.
The criminal offence has been committed by a 3rd party.

In the civil court he was acting on the advice of the claimant in good faith, and it was not unreasonable for him to dispose of the asset given the fact the claimant had told him to do so.

They cant have it both ways, giving advice which then puts their customer in a position where said customer will then be liable for his actions which he has made on their advice. In fact I am pretty sure the court and the various financial bodies will look on that quite dimly.

[gizlaroc]

red_slr said:

But HE has not done anything.
The criminal offence has been committed by a 3rd party.

They don't care about that.
And has he not done anything?

How do you know he has not paid it with a hacked account and this whole thread was started to try and make it look like someone else paid it?


But you're right, he has been conned, not the finance company.
And therefore he is responsible.

red_slr said:

In the civil court he was acting on the advice of the claimant in good faith, and it was not unreasonable for him to dispose of the asset given the fact the claimant had told him to do so.

They cant have it both ways, giving advice which then puts their customer in a position where said customer will then be liable for his actions which he has made on their advice. In fact I am pretty sure the court and the various financial bodies will look on that quite dimly.

We have not seen the letter, I can guarantee you it does not say anything other than their checks make it look genuine, and they no longer have an interest in the vehicle.

What do you you think they can check anyway?
Apart from call the bank and verify the name and account number match?

When I have paid off finance I don't even give my name, I get the sort code and account number and put the agreement number as reference.
The finance company won't even know where that money has come from, no clue what so ever, all they know is what agreement to match it against.

They don't know it has come from a third party, they just know it is paid.

It is a very clever way of cleaning money, the only difficult part is how to get rid of the vehicle, that is the only point that may be tricky.
But that has been worked out a treat.

[TwistingMyMelon]

The thing is , even if the OP is not accountable for the money if it is a scam: THIS IS A BIG IF Why put yourself in a situation where there there are so many red flags!

Even if the Finance company can't (again a big if) get the money off the OP, then they will still scare the sh11t out of him trying to!

Plus if it was a scam that (again a big if) happened how the OP laid out, then the Police (like some of us) would be very dubious of the whole tail, even if (again if) it was true.