RE: Tesla launches 691hp Model S P85D

[Impasse]

DonkeyApple said:

You are being silly so you are getting silly answers.

Point me to the law that says people who can't domestically charge an EV must buy one or the stats that show that the majority of people in the position to buy such an expensive car don't have the means to charge domestically and I might take you remotely seriously. Until then you are harping on about a total non issue.

Only a few posts above you kbf1981 has pointed out that a Prius EV starts at around £24k and not to mention the Zoe at around £14k, so I don't think you are really looking at a whole picture of those who might be buying these types of cars. But if you think a lack of convenient refuelling solutions for a car is a non issue then do carry on with the blinkers.

If, however, you can show me where there are real solutions which will cause minimal disruption and slot in to present day car driver's usage, I may take electric vehicles seriously. But right now, I've seen nothing which convinces me to change my mind that they are the wrong answer to the future of motoring/personalised transport.

[McWigglebum4th]

Impasse said:

Yes. I have asked how is this technology going to be conveniently integrated around the lives of those who don't have access to a plug socket close to where they park their car - be that fast saloon, a seven seater kid mobile or a small shopping car. All I have got back is the possibility of a battery pack swap for £100k saloon cars in one or two locations, or a half an hour wait for a partially filled "fuel tank".
None of which smacks of convenience and it's convenience which will make or break this technology, not the performance stats.

But feel free to blithely throw in a remark which you perceive to be humorous in an attempt to deflect this very basic query. And it is a query, not a criticism or a way of pouring scorn on the idea. I just don't see how this technology will work in everyday life for the majority of end users. There are too many unresolved problems which seem to be being dismissed as a non-issue or solutions which will only work if there is minimal take-up of the idea.

I think the £100K price might be a bit of a bigger issue

back in the real world over 30% of houses in the UK have a drveway

Also the average annual mileage is roughly 8500

With the vast majority of car journeys being under 30 miles


Only here does everyone live in a top floor flat with no parking and has a 300 mile daily commute

[McWigglebum4th]

Impasse said:

If, however, you can show me where there are real solutions which will cause minimal disruption and slot in to present day car driver's usage, I may take electric vehicles seriously. But right now, I've seen nothing which convinces me to change my mind that they are the wrong answer to the future of motoring/personalised transport.

A real solution

I do 43 miles a day

i have a driveway

i pass exactly zero petrol stations on my daily commute

The nearest is a 1 mile diversion

We as a family own 4 cars


For me the idea of plugging a car in of an evening is more convenient then a petrol car.


However i realize i am not identical to everyone


So what works for me won't work for everyone


EVs are not THE future of motoring they are part of the future. Also they are not worse then an dino burner nor are they better. they are different. I can think of a good few areas where an EV is ahead of the dino burner



If you want a universal solution then do please bear in mind i need 4wd and a 3500kg towing capacity which oddly enough the most popular top ten cars in the UK don't offer.

[Impasse]

McWigglebum4th said:

I think the £100K price might be a bit of a bigger issue

back in the real world over 30% of houses in the UK have a drveway

Also the average annual mileage is roughly 8500

With the vast majority of car journeys being under 30 miles


Only here does everyone live in a top floor flat with no parking and has a 300 mile daily commute

A Renault Zoe is £14k which might be a lot to you, but a lot of households seem to think that sort of figure is affordable for a new car. According to your figures around 70% of the UK households don't have a driveway - which is a lot of stranded Zoes. So unless the recharge/refuel infrastructure is vastly improved and as convenient as the local Esso then this is a flawed technology.

[London424]

Impasse said:

McWigglebum4th said:

I think the £100K price might be a bit of a bigger issue

back in the real world over 30% of houses in the UK have a drveway

Also the average annual mileage is roughly 8500

With the vast majority of car journeys being under 30 miles


Only here does everyone live in a top floor flat with no parking and has a 300 mile daily commute

A Renault Zoe is £14k which might be a lot to you, but a lot of households seem to think that sort of figure is affordable for a new car. According to your figures around 70% of the UK households don't have a driveway - which is a lot of stranded Zoes. So unless the recharge/refuel infrastructure is vastly improved and as convenient as the local Esso then this is a flawed technology.

So around 10 million homes have access to a driveway...seems like a lot of potential there.

[DonkeyApple]

Impasse said:

DonkeyApple said:

You are being silly so you are getting silly answers.

Point me to the law that says people who can't domestically charge an EV must buy one or the stats that show that the majority of people in the position to buy such an expensive car don't have the means to charge domestically and I might take you remotely seriously. Until then you are harping on about a total non issue.

Only a few posts above you kbf1981 has pointed out that a Prius EV starts at around £24k and not to mention the Zoe at around £14k, so I don't think you are really looking at a whole picture of those who might be buying these types of cars. But if you think a lack of convenient refuelling solutions for a car is a non issue then do carry on with the blinkers.

If, however, you can show me where there are real solutions which will cause minimal disruption and slot in to present day car driver's usage, I may take electric vehicles seriously. But right now, I've seen nothing which convinces me to change my mind that they are the wrong answer to the future of motoring/personalised transport.

Not correct.

Your post:

Not that I'm in the market for an odd looking Jaguar saloon, but where do I charge up this car? I know where to buy fuel for my more conventional powered vehicles, but how do I replenish the "fuel tanks" of this car?

You were very clearly referencing this specific car.

If you wish to now change and reference 'budget' EVs aimed at the more conventional market then that is a different matter.

However, this can equally be addressed by the simple fact that huge numbers of households do have off street parking.

Then, if we look at the households that do not have off street parking let's ask the question as to just how many of those households have occupants who can afford a car let alone a new/expensive one?

Once you rule out non car owning households you are probably looking at a figure of over 50% of car owning households having off street parking.

So please explain why you think you point is really that relevant even after you have changed your goalposts to encompass the lower end of the EV market?

[TransverseTight]

dvs_dave said:

But what the naysayers forget is that you can charge your car at home. You can't fill your IC car up at home every night. So each morning you leave home with a "full tank". Given most people's usage, a visit to a supercharger station would be only very occasional. I'd also wager that most folk waste more time overall having to go on a 15 min detour to the petrol station to fill their car up in "only 5 mins", a few times a week.

Of course there's the "I need to drive 500 miles in one go at least weekly, don't have parking with power and there are no superchargers on my remote highlands route" crowd...well guess what, a Tesla isn't for you, but equally a large petrol saloon with similar performance would be a poor choice also for obvious reasons.

You hit the nail on the head there.

I can't remember the exact figure but Telsa know from data logging how many miles have been travelled on cars charged at home VS cars charged at their supercharger network. The figures were something like 100:1 in favour of home charging. I.e. The aggregates are a couple of tens of million miles driven from supercharger top ups to hundreds of millions driven over all. And that's despite the superchargers being the fastest way to top up and free.

There's one other key metric the naysayers forget... cost of ownership. When you compare say an i3 to a 120d - same brand, similar sized just different packaging the actual purchase costs of an i3 isn't that different to a 120d. I stuck on all the tech gadgetry (drive assist, pro nav, led lights etc) and the i3 came in at £38k an 120d £33k. You can then knock off £5k grant for the i3 and about £2-3k for dealer discount on the 120d. Given a real cost to buy of £30k 120d vs £33k i3. But running the i3 is 1/10 the cost. Lower still if you are a company car driver. Even Lower if you own the company.

When people who have them explain the maths to friends and family and explain how it's a better fit with lifestyle then they will sell by the transporter full. Just needs a few more desirable models in the sub £20k price bracket to get real market transformation started. Probably something like a Golf EV with REX would do it. Start them off with a 25kWh pack and then upgrade it when battery costs are lower, maybe ditching the REX eventually (around 2030).

[TransverseTight]

TransverseTight said:

dvs_dave said:

But what the naysayers forget is that you can charge your car at home. You can't fill your IC car up at home every night. So each morning you leave home with a "full tank". Given most people's usage, a visit to a supercharger station would be only very occasional. I'd also wager that most folk waste more time overall having to go on a 15 min detour to the petrol station to fill their car up in "only 5 mins", a few times a week.

Of course there's the "I need to drive 500 miles in one go at least weekly, don't have parking with power and there are no superchargers on my remote highlands route" crowd...well guess what, a Tesla isn't for you, but equally a large petrol saloon with similar performance would be a poor choice also for obvious reasons.

You hit the nail on the head there.

I can't remember the exact figure but Telsa know from data logging how many miles have been travelled on cars charged at home VS cars charged at their supercharger network. The figures were something like 100:1 in favour of home charging. I.e. The aggregates are a couple of tens of million miles driven from supercharger top ups to hundreds of millions driven over all. And that's despite the superchargers being the fastest way to top up and free.[edit I know that's 10:1 but the figure was actually 3.2M mi have been supercharged from a total of 200M mi driven. about 1:50]

There's one other key metric the naysayers forget... cost of ownership. When you compare say an i3 to a 120d - same brand, similar sized just different packaging the actual purchase costs of an i3 isn't that different to a 120d. I stuck on all the tech gadgetry (drive assist, pro nav, led lights etc) and the i3 came in at £38k an 120d £33k. You can then knock off £5k grant for the i3 and about £2-3k for dealer discount on the 120d. Given a real cost to buy of £30k 120d vs £33k i3. But running the i3 is 1/10 the cost. Lower still if you are a company car driver. Even Lower if you own the company.

When people who have them explain the maths to friends and family and explain how it's a better fit with lifestyle then they will sell by the transporter full. Just needs a few more desirable models in the sub £20k price bracket to get real market transformation started. Probably something like a Golf EV with REX would do it. Start them off with a 25kWh pack and then upgrade it when battery costs are lower, maybe ditching the REX eventually (around 2030).

[Fruitcake]

[flatso]

DeltaEvo2 said:

Forget electric cars...the future is water. Apparently there is a man in Italy who's been converting cars to drive on water for a while...

Throughout motoring history there have always been all sorts of interesting tech, from electromagnetic to compressed air to water alternatives. Do you have any links or sources to this italian version?

[Terminator X]

TransverseTight said:

The end of the ICE is coming. I explained to my son that when I was his age there were no computers or mobile phones and ipads, and we only had 2 TV channels, and he just didn't get it. He will be explaining to his kids in 20-30 years time that we used to drive really noisy cars, that you had to drive out of your way to a petrol station every other week and queue and pay 1/2 a days salary to fill up just to drive 300-400 miles. Rather than parking up and plugging in.

Tell us more about this "free" fuel. Amazing stuff.

TX.

[Terminator X]

dvs_dave said:

Terminator X said:

"Tesla has been fitting every new car coming out of the factory with 'Autopilot' hardware - including a long-range camera, ultrasonic sensors and GPS - which opens up the prospect of self-driving features

Lots of don't want there

TX.

Commuting and city traffic is such an enjoyable driving experience I wouldn't want to give that up either...

Let us rejoice in our differences.

TX.

[The Vambo]

Terminator X said:

Tell us more about this "free" fuel. Amazing stuff.

TX.

Here you go, smart arse.

Tesla said:

Tesla Superchargers allow Model S owners to travel for free between cities along well-traveled highways in North America, Europe and Asia. Superchargers provide half a charge in as little as 20 minutes and are strategically placed to allow owners to drive from station to station with minimal stops.

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

[Impasse]

So let's have a quick summary of the previous handful of posts:

Q: "How do those without a home charging solution refuel their cars?" - and that's 70% of households apparently.
A: "You don't know what you're talking about, stop asking silly questions."

It's like conversing with Alex Salmond.

[underphil]

Impasse said:

So let's have a quick summary of the previous handful of posts:

Q: "How do those without a home charging solution refuel their cars?" - and that's 70% of households apparently.
A: "You don't know what you're talking about, stop asking silly questions."

It's like conversing with Alex Salmond.

A: the rapidly expanding supercharger network?

[McWigglebum4th]

Impasse said:

So let's have a quick summary of the previous handful of posts:

Q: "How do those without a home charging solution refuel their cars?" - and that's 70% of households apparently.
A: "You don't know what you're talking about, stop asking silly questions."

It's like conversing with Alex Salmond.

THEY BUY A PETROL CAR


Wasn't hard now was it



99.9% of people can't afford a ferrari

Ergo Ferraris are crap



Stupid argument isn't it

[ctallchris]

Impasse said:

So let's have a quick summary of the previous handful of posts:

Q: "How do those without a home charging solution refuel their cars?" - and that's 70% of households apparently.
A: "You don't know what you're talking about, stop asking silly questions."

It's like conversing with Alex Salmond.

It's irrelevant, possibly not to you but you may as well ask why it is not amphibious.

If electric cars get good enough to beat petrol the infrastructure will appear because people will demand it. In the 1920s there were almost no petrol stations.

[Impasse]

McWigglebum4th said:

THEY BUY A PETROL CAR


Wasn't hard now was it



99.9% of people can't afford a ferrari

Ergo Ferraris are crap



Stupid argument isn't it

Nope, because we've already established a Zoe can be purchased for a similar price to a Fiesta and I wonder how buying a petrol car moves the alternative fuel argument forward.

[McWigglebum4th]

Impasse said:

Nope, because we've already established a Zoe can be purchased for a similar price to a Fiesta and I wonder how buying a petrol car moves the alternative fuel argument forward.

So because a few people can't charge a Zoe you think that the Zoe is useless


3 people in my office have no driving license

They can't drive a car

Ergo all cars are useless

[The Vambo]

Impasse said:

I wonder how buying a petrol car moves the alternative fuel argument forward.

What do these words even mean?