RE: Tesla launches 691hp Model S P85D
Discussion
Impasse said:
McWigglebum4th said:
THEY BUY A PETROL CAR
Wasn't hard now was it
99.9% of people can't afford a ferrari
Ergo Ferraris are crap
Stupid argument isn't it
Nope, because we've already established a Zoe can be purchased for a similar price to a Fiesta and I wonder how buying a petrol car moves the alternative fuel argument forward. Wasn't hard now was it
99.9% of people can't afford a ferrari
Ergo Ferraris are crap
Stupid argument isn't it
Impasse said:
So let's have a quick summary of the previous handful of posts:
Q: "How do those without a home charging solution refuel their cars?" - and that's 70% of households apparently.
A: "You don't know what you're talking about, stop asking silly questions."
It's like conversing with Alex Salmond.
I think several people have offered various option for this, but you are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge them? I imagine it is just so you can sit giggling at your PC over your feeling of superior intelligence?Q: "How do those without a home charging solution refuel their cars?" - and that's 70% of households apparently.
A: "You don't know what you're talking about, stop asking silly questions."
It's like conversing with Alex Salmond.
1. You plug in at home, it is free to have charging point installed, I think it is around 50% have off road parking in the UK, that's a lot of leccy cars
2. You charge at work, it just reverses your charging use and when you go far you use quick chargers
3. On-street charging, done right now in Norway, they have 1/2/3 EV only spaces in each parking bay, with a charger. Could easily be done like car club spaces in London. With 32 amp charging, you can charge up completely in 4 hours, but in reality nobody "sees" that time, as they don't arrive empty often.
If you open your eyes you would see there are now A LOT of quick chargers installed in the UK. Pretty much every motorway service station in England has one, some have two. Soon (months, not year, all service stations will have them). They are also at IKEA stores and the dealers for the various brands. Nissan were saying recently there are almost 250 quick chargers accessible to Leaf owners in the UK and most are free to use.
By the way, with a quick charger, 30 minutes is the general MAXIMUM time, not the every time. YOu would probably spend 10-15 minutes most of the time... Why? Well you don't arrive empty.
dino ferrana said:
Nissan were saying recently there are almost 250 quick chargers accessible to Leaf owners in the UK and most are free to use.
By the way, with a quick charger, 30 minutes is the general MAXIMUM time, not the every time. YOu would probably spend 10-15 minutes most of the time... Why? Well you don't arrive empty.
I test drove a leafBy the way, with a quick charger, 30 minutes is the general MAXIMUM time, not the every time. YOu would probably spend 10-15 minutes most of the time... Why? Well you don't arrive empty.
An old couple came in with their leaf and plugged it in for a recharge and toddled inside for a free cup of coffee
80 miles of free driving with a cup of coffee thrown in for free
Not a bad deal
The main issue is folk hear 8 hours to recharge and they scream in panic as they are so used to having to be there while they refill their car. they think they will have to stand there for 8 hours pushing a button.
NOPE you p
s off and do something elseOnce i finally get my EV it will be recharged while i sleep/work/eat/shop/eat
McWigglebum4th said:
So because a few people can't charge a Zoe you think that the Zoe is useless
3 people in my office have no driving license
They can't drive a car
Ergo all cars are useless
A few people? Your own stats say that 70% of households have no provision to charge their cars at home. 70% of households is hardly a few people. What is being done to alleviate this huge stumbling block for the advancement of electric cars? Are we to see residential roads being dug up throughout the land to fit charging posts or inductive loops? If so who pays? Will they be vandal and (electricity) theft proof? Will they be allocated to a house or will they be a free-for-all like most on street parking? How will the electricity be paid for by the individual user? How is this electricity going to be taxed to make up the massive shortfall in government coffers? Will there be a way of differentiating a car being charged at home from a kettle being boiled and the appropriate amount of tax applied?3 people in my office have no driving license
They can't drive a car
Ergo all cars are useless
Are battery packs going to be industry standardised and easily accessible so they're a five minute swap-over job at the local garage/petrol/electric station? Are solar panel on car roofs going to become advanced enough to negate any of these requirements?
Basic questions really, from someone who is interested, but all I'm getting is pithy replies in an attempt to belittle. I thought electric cars were supposed to soothe their drivers and owners, but some seem to be very uptight when asked about the whole idea.
Impasse said:
A few people? Your own stats say that 70% of households have no provision to charge their cars at home. 70% of households is hardly a few people. What is being done to alleviate this huge stumbling block for the advancement of electric cars? Are we to see residential roads being dug up throughout the land to fit charging posts or inductive loops? If so who pays? Will they be vandal and (electricity) theft proof? Will they be allocated to a house or will they be a free-for-all like most on street parking? How will the electricity be paid for by the individual user? How is this electricity going to be taxed to make up the massive shortfall in government coffers? Will there be a way of differentiating a car being charged at home from a kettle being boiled and the appropriate amount of tax applied?
Are battery packs going to be industry standardised and easily accessible so they're a five minute swap-over job at the local garage/petrol/electric station? Are solar panel on car roofs going to become advanced enough to negate any of these requirements?
Basic questions really, from someone who is interested, but all I'm getting is pithy replies in an attempt to belittle. I thought electric cars were supposed to soothe their drivers and owners, but some seem to be very uptight when asked about the whole idea.
I have thought about itAre battery packs going to be industry standardised and easily accessible so they're a five minute swap-over job at the local garage/petrol/electric station? Are solar panel on car roofs going to become advanced enough to negate any of these requirements?
Basic questions really, from someone who is interested, but all I'm getting is pithy replies in an attempt to belittle. I thought electric cars were supposed to soothe their drivers and owners, but some seem to be very uptight when asked about the whole idea.
Because some people can't charge an electric car they are useless
No solution whatsoever
So what transport should we use?
Hydrogen?
Oh and your ONE solution must do everything for everyone
Impasse said:
but some seem to be very uptight when asked about the whole idea.
No offence but it not the subject, it is you and your attitude.You have had the same question answered in six different ways but completely ignore it and then come back with a post containing 40 different questions that must be answered by posters or the whole electric car thing is stupid.
Very few thing are flawless to begin with and that includes ICE cars and their ridiculously dangerous infrastructure.
Impasse said:
McWigglebum4th said:
So because a few people can't charge a Zoe you think that the Zoe is useless
3 people in my office have no driving license
They can't drive a car
Ergo all cars are useless
A few people? Your own stats say that 70% of households have no provision to charge their cars at home. 70% of households is hardly a few people. What is being done to alleviate this huge stumbling block for the advancement of electric cars? Are we to see residential roads being dug up throughout the land to fit charging posts or inductive loops? If so who pays? Will they be vandal and (electricity) theft proof? Will they be allocated to a house or will they be a free-for-all like most on street parking? How will the electricity be paid for by the individual user? How is this electricity going to be taxed to make up the massive shortfall in government coffers? Will there be a way of differentiating a car being charged at home from a kettle being boiled and the appropriate amount of tax applied?3 people in my office have no driving license
They can't drive a car
Ergo all cars are useless
Are battery packs going to be industry standardised and easily accessible so they're a five minute swap-over job at the local garage/petrol/electric station? Are solar panel on car roofs going to become advanced enough to negate any of these requirements?
Basic questions really, from someone who is interested, but all I'm getting is pithy replies in an attempt to belittle. I thought electric cars were supposed to soothe their drivers and owners, but some seem to be very uptight when asked about the whole idea.
Taking your 70% that you are now using, what percentage of those households have a car? Interesting eh?
Well, the percentage of households owning a car is 75% so you can begin to see the flaw.
Now, let's look at car ownership amongst the poorest. Well, less than 60% of the poorest households own a car.
It is fair to assume that the majority of these people do not reside in properties large enough to dedicate expensive land to parking.
So, just some basic data shows that your 70% is somewhat shaky in its pertinence.
And to add to this, the fact that the poorest in the UK do not generally own parking spaces has the enormous benefit of preventing a government from forcing EVs on the masses, keeping them a personal choice for those who have the ability to use them and benefit from them.
So, just to reiterate, even when you have changed your argument having noted the folly of your first claim, even your wider, revised claim/insinuation etc is not sufficiently relevant. Even if you try to defend it by calling people believers, deniers, fanboys or whatever the low level accusation is.
Impasse said:
McWigglebum4th said:
So because a few people can't charge a Zoe you think that the Zoe is useless
3 people in my office have no driving license
They can't drive a car
Ergo all cars are useless
A few people? Your own stats say that 70% of households have no provision to charge their cars at home. 70% of households is hardly a few people. What is being done to alleviate this huge stumbling block for the advancement of electric cars? Are we to see residential roads being dug up throughout the land to fit charging posts or inductive loops? If so who pays? Will they be vandal and (electricity) theft proof? Will they be allocated to a house or will they be a free-for-all like most on street parking? How will the electricity be paid for by the individual user? How is this electricity going to be taxed to make up the massive shortfall in government coffers? Will there be a way of differentiating a car being charged at home from a kettle being boiled and the appropriate amount of tax applied?3 people in my office have no driving license
They can't drive a car
Ergo all cars are useless
Are battery packs going to be industry standardised and easily accessible so they're a five minute swap-over job at the local garage/petrol/electric station? Are solar panel on car roofs going to become advanced enough to negate any of these requirements?
Basic questions really, from someone who is interested, but all I'm getting is pithy replies in an attempt to belittle. I thought electric cars were supposed to soothe their drivers and owners, but some seem to be very uptight when asked about the whole idea.
Impasse said:
McWigglebum4th said:
So because a few people can't charge a Zoe you think that the Zoe is useless
3 people in my office have no driving license
They can't drive a car
Ergo all cars are useless
A few people? Your own stats say that 70% of households have no provision to charge their cars at home. 70% of households is hardly a few people. What is being done to alleviate this huge stumbling block for the advancement of electric cars? Are we to see residential roads being dug up throughout the land to fit charging posts or inductive loops? If so who pays? Will they be vandal and (electricity) theft proof? Will they be allocated to a house or will they be a free-for-all like most on street parking? How will the electricity be paid for by the individual user? How is this electricity going to be taxed to make up the massive shortfall in government coffers? Will there be a way of differentiating a car being charged at home from a kettle being boiled and the appropriate amount of tax applied?3 people in my office have no driving license
They can't drive a car
Ergo all cars are useless
Are battery packs going to be industry standardised and easily accessible so they're a five minute swap-over job at the local garage/petrol/electric station? Are solar panel on car roofs going to become advanced enough to negate any of these requirements?
Basic questions really, from someone who is interested, but all I'm getting is pithy replies in an attempt to belittle. I thought electric cars were supposed to soothe their drivers and owners, but some seem to be very uptight when asked about the whole idea.
In regards to your charging question about random on street parking, at the moment you get a card that you put your credit card details on and you go up to the charge point, plug your car in, swipe your card, lock the charge point to your car and your car fills up. Then you are billed for the amount of electricity you have used! Simple. Although someone i know hasn't actually been charged at all with their i3 yet. Winner!
The battery pack thing, that might happen in the future. An example of this is that Tesla has allowed access to their patents for a fee when another company uses them. So other people could copy their battery pack design and the quick swap method and that could become the standard. As Tesla already has an infrastructure set up and is putting more money into this then that might be a smart idea for other manufacturers to get on board with. (This is entirely hypothetical by the way)
Solar panels on cars won't do anything at all to charge an EV relatively speaking.
Perra said:
Empasse the main reason you are getting funny replies is that it seems you haven't spent any time researching anything to do with electric cars, especially considering you are genuinely interested.
In regards to your charging question about random on street parking, at the moment you get a card that you put your credit card details on and you go up to the charge point, plug your car in, swipe your card, lock the charge point to your car and your car fills up. Then you are billed for the amount of electricity you have used! Simple. Although someone i know hasn't actually been charged at all with their i3 yet. Winner!
The battery pack thing, that might happen in the future. An example of this is that Tesla has allowed access to their patents for a fee when another company uses them. So other people could copy their battery pack design and the quick swap method and that could become the standard. As Tesla already has an infrastructure set up and is putting more money into this then that might be a smart idea for other manufacturers to get on board with. (This is entirely hypothetical by the way)
Solar panels on cars won't do anything at all to charge an EV relatively speaking.
Thank you. In regards to your charging question about random on street parking, at the moment you get a card that you put your credit card details on and you go up to the charge point, plug your car in, swipe your card, lock the charge point to your car and your car fills up. Then you are billed for the amount of electricity you have used! Simple. Although someone i know hasn't actually been charged at all with their i3 yet. Winner!
The battery pack thing, that might happen in the future. An example of this is that Tesla has allowed access to their patents for a fee when another company uses them. So other people could copy their battery pack design and the quick swap method and that could become the standard. As Tesla already has an infrastructure set up and is putting more money into this then that might be a smart idea for other manufacturers to get on board with. (This is entirely hypothetical by the way)
Solar panels on cars won't do anything at all to charge an EV relatively speaking.
If the electric car suddenly took off (in popularity) are there plans afoot to cope with the sudden demand of power points etc? At the moment there seems to be a small handful at a lot of motorway service stations, but how quickly do you think the extra few hundred per service station could be installed? Are the various manufacturers ready to upscale output?
Because of their low numbers and relative novelty factor, there are many subsidies/grants and freebies around for electric car ownership from financial incentives towards the initial purchase price through to special parking spaces. I can only presume this particular monetary holiday will fade out should electric cars reach similar ownership levels to petrol, do you know if there are any speculative numbers about the impact this might have on overall ownership costs?
Impasse said:
If the electric car suddenly took off (in popularity) are there plans afoot to cope with the sudden demand of power points etc? At the moment there seems to be a small handful at a lot of motorway service stations, but how quickly do you think the extra few hundred per service station could be installed? Are the various manufacturers ready to upscale output?
It won't suddenly take off in reality I don't think, it will just be a steady rise in market share and will plateau like with anything people will switch between different cars once its established. People rarely bought Diesels but then the technology advanced and it made sense to buy Diesels. Generally speaking people who buy EV's are only going to buy them if they have the ability to charge it outside their house or at work. But generally they will charge it at night, which will be no issue for the grid at all.Here is a little article on market share increase, which I'm not all that surprised as there wasn't much on offer last year:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/oct/07...
At the end of next year we'll probably get a better idea of where it's heading.
Impasse said:
Because of their low numbers and relative novelty factor, there are many subsidies/grants and freebies around for electric car ownership from financial incentives towards the initial purchase price through to special parking spaces. I can only presume this particular monetary holiday will fade out should electric cars reach similar ownership levels to petrol, do you know if there are any speculative numbers about the impact this might have on overall ownership costs?
I have absolutely 0 figures and if you wanted to I'm sure you could find projected market share and how much money the government will lose due to it and when they'll decide to reduce grants etc. But in all honesty, the technology will have advanced, prices will be cheaper anyways so it will be negligible surely? Road tax will change soon I'm sure to how much you drive as opposed to what type of car you drive. The ownership level compared to petrol isn't going to be for a long time, maybe 2030-40 realistically right? At the end of the day, if I were to run an EV to work everyday it would be ten times cheaper! 
I spend around £180 a month on fuel just for commuting to work. So I would save £162 if I got an EV. I would go and get an i3 tomorrow if I wasn't leaving the country. I genuinely think you should go for a test drive they are actually quite fun.Impasse said:
Thank you.
If the electric car suddenly took off (in popularity) are there plans afoot to cope with the sudden demand of power points etc? At the moment there seems to be a small handful at a lot of motorway service stations, but how quickly do you think the extra few hundred per service station could be installed? Are the various manufacturers ready to upscale output?
Because of their low numbers and relative novelty factor, there are many subsidies/grants and freebies around for electric car ownership from financial incentives towards the initial purchase price through to special parking spaces. I can only presume this particular monetary holiday will fade out should electric cars reach similar ownership levels to petrol, do you know if there are any speculative numbers about the impact this might have on overall ownership costs?
The current usage data shows that remote charging points are more to do with combat marketing the issue of range anxiety as the vast majority of EV users charge at home. If the electric car suddenly took off (in popularity) are there plans afoot to cope with the sudden demand of power points etc? At the moment there seems to be a small handful at a lot of motorway service stations, but how quickly do you think the extra few hundred per service station could be installed? Are the various manufacturers ready to upscale output?
Because of their low numbers and relative novelty factor, there are many subsidies/grants and freebies around for electric car ownership from financial incentives towards the initial purchase price through to special parking spaces. I can only presume this particular monetary holiday will fade out should electric cars reach similar ownership levels to petrol, do you know if there are any speculative numbers about the impact this might have on overall ownership costs?
Contrasting usage between free and pay remote units also highlights the likely fact that many EV owners only use them because they are free as opposed to being a necessity.
Average daily car commute mileage is less than 9 miles which does highlight that range anxiety is unfounded in reason.
The real expansion in EV charging will stem from the fact that every EV owner will have a charge point that is available for hire when not being used directly by the owner. What this illustrates is that the number of remote charge points is going to naturally increase as a biproduct of EV sales. Someone who commutes all day can rent their charge point to a shopper or out of towner etc. smart apps make this very simple.
Why not even set your car to vend excess power to fellow EVs?
A real benefit to electricity over other fuels is that it is totally ubiquitous and easy to also monetise. Anyone could set up shop as a vendor, anywhere they like. For example, a pensioner with a driveway but no longer a car could easily rent space and power.
It is, when you open your mind to the possibilities, actually inconceivable for their to be any kind of domestic or remote charging issues.
People talking about swapping power packs or going to charge stations are simply applying solutions from the world of ICE to try and fit electric. The reality is that electric is totally different, unrestricted and with myriad new solutions.
However, the simple fact remains that people will not buy an EV if it's range does not cater for 95% of their usage if not more. It would take enormous monetary savings to combat that basic buyer's logic.
The only single issue with EVs is the cost of the batteries and their mass. Reduce their cost and EVs will be a fraction of the price of ICE to buy and run. Reduce mass and you can run for several thousand miles between charges. It's that simple. Until then EVs are essentially a luxury item that can't cater for the masses but when demand does hugely increase there will never be any kind of issue with regards to remote charging.
dvs_dave said:
But what the naysayers forget is that you can charge your car at home. You can't fill your IC car up at home every night. So each morning you leave home with a "full tank". Given most people's usage, a visit to a supercharger station would be only very occasional. I'd also wager that most folk waste more time overall having to go on a 15 min detour to the petrol station to fill their car up in "only 5 mins", a few times a week.
Lots of houses in London have no private, nor off-street parking. We park somewhere on the street wherever a space is available, i.e. not outside the house, indeed plenty of houses have no parking immediately outside. They always park 25, 50, or 100 yards away, so until we have a street full of shiny charging points its a no go ... and even then ... how long do you think it will be before the local yobs realise its amusing to unplug a street full of cars in the middle of the night, or being more enterprising, nick the cables? Where I live about as long as it takes for Saturday night to come round 
.boxerTen said:
dvs_dave said:
But what the naysayers forget is that you can charge your car at home. You can't fill your IC car up at home every night. So each morning you leave home with a "full tank". Given most people's usage, a visit to a supercharger station would be only very occasional. I'd also wager that most folk waste more time overall having to go on a 15 min detour to the petrol station to fill their car up in "only 5 mins", a few times a week.
Lots of houses in London have no private, nor off-street parking. We park somewhere on the street wherever a space is available, i.e. not outside the house, indeed plenty of houses have no parking immediately outside. They always park 25, 50, or 100 yards away, so until we have a street full of shiny charging points its a no go ... and even then ... how long do you think it will be before the local yobs realise its amusing to unplug a street full of cars in the middle of the night, or being more enterprising, nick the cables? Where I live about as long as it takes for Saturday night to come round .However - I'd give it a few years.... I reckon induction charging (in a parking space under the tarmac ) will be viable for an overnight charge.
Wireless charging will be the future.
boxerTen said:
dvs_dave said:
But what the naysayers forget is that you can charge your car at home. You can't fill your IC car up at home every night. So each morning you leave home with a "full tank". Given most people's usage, a visit to a supercharger station would be only very occasional. I'd also wager that most folk waste more time overall having to go on a 15 min detour to the petrol station to fill their car up in "only 5 mins", a few times a week.
Lots of houses in London have no private, nor off-street parking. We park somewhere on the street wherever a space is available, i.e. not outside the house, indeed plenty of houses have no parking immediately outside. They always park 25, 50, or 100 yards away, so until we have a street full of shiny charging points its a no go ... and even then ... how long do you think it will be before the local yobs realise its amusing to unplug a street full of cars in the middle of the night, or being more enterprising, nick the cables? Where I live about as long as it takes for Saturday night to come round .It doesn't make the concept of an EV flawed. Nobody is saying that EV's are a one size fits all.
My street is full of houses with off street parking.
boxerTen said:
dvs_dave said:
But what the naysayers forget is that you can charge your car at home. You can't fill your IC car up at home every night. So each morning you leave home with a "full tank". Given most people's usage, a visit to a supercharger station would be only very occasional. I'd also wager that most folk waste more time overall having to go on a 15 min detour to the petrol station to fill their car up in "only 5 mins", a few times a week.
Lots of houses in London have no private, nor off-street parking. We park somewhere on the street wherever a space is available, i.e. not outside the house, indeed plenty of houses have no parking immediately outside. They always park 25, 50, or 100 yards away, so until we have a street full of shiny charging points its a no go ... and even then ... how long do you think it will be before the local yobs realise its amusing to unplug a street full of cars in the middle of the night, or being more enterprising, nick the cables? Where I live about as long as it takes for Saturday night to come round .Of those who live in London and have no means to park their car near their property, what percentage have near £100k cars? The lack of driveways is somewhat a non issue for this Tesla.
At the bottom end it becomes some form of measurable issue but as EVs tend to be second cars it again tends to point to usage by the wealth demographic who own off street parking.
A far more significant is whether the value of the power packs in EVs make them more desirable to nick and strip? This giving another reason for those without the means to park on site to not buy EVs.
But also, if EVs reached the point that they were cheaper than the typical used utility box outside such homes then you would find that the off site destination parking spaces for these cars would all have charge points. For example, once enough normal income households have an EV then a supermarket will instal fast charge points in vast numbers of their spaces. Then all other supermarkets will have to follow and all too soon every parking space in an out of town destination will have charging and EV owners who do not have off street will simply charge their car for the week or fortnight while at Lakeside screaming at their children and guzzling McMuck.
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