RE: Tesla launches 691hp Model S P85D
Discussion
98elise said:
boxerTen said:
dvs_dave said:
But what the naysayers forget is that you can charge your car at home. You can't fill your IC car up at home every night. So each morning you leave home with a "full tank". Given most people's usage, a visit to a supercharger station would be only very occasional. I'd also wager that most folk waste more time overall having to go on a 15 min detour to the petrol station to fill their car up in "only 5 mins", a few times a week.
Lots of houses in London have no private, nor off-street parking. We park somewhere on the street wherever a space is available, i.e. not outside the house, indeed plenty of houses have no parking immediately outside. They always park 25, 50, or 100 yards away, so until we have a street full of shiny charging points its a no go ... and even then ... how long do you think it will be before the local yobs realise its amusing to unplug a street full of cars in the middle of the night, or being more enterprising, nick the cables? Where I live about as long as it takes for Saturday night to come round 
.It doesn't make the concept of an EV flawed. Nobody is saying that EV's are a one size fits all.
My street is full of houses with off street parking.
It is a blessing in disguise in reality. For those of is who love our petrol engines we will need the support of the drivewayless masses to protect our right to drive evil, baby killing cars.
Obviously, diesel owners must convert or die.
I don't think the government will have any interest in banning ICE powered cars or pricing them completely off the road. Once they are no longer used for mainstream transport, the gains from taxing them become negligible so the government will lose interest. They'll have no more reason to ban cars than they do to ban horses.
kambites said:
I don't think the government will have any interest in banning ICE powered cars or pricing them completely off the road. Once they are no longer used for mainstream transport, the gains from taxing them become negligible so the government will lose interest. They'll have no more reason to ban cars than they do to ban horses.
Maybe but past performance shows that modern politics requires bogie men to be used to focus the proletariate attention and redirect anger and hatred. We already know that car owners are on that list but that among car owners the owners of EVs are lovely, kind people whereas owners of even diesel cars now are the sort of punter who make Jimmy Savile look like a top chap. Never underestimate the use of hatred of groups to secure votes. I blame Thatcher, Jews and bankers. Scum.
DonkeyApple said:
boxerTen said:
Lots of houses in London have no private, nor off-street parking. We park somewhere on the street wherever a space is available, i.e. not outside the house, indeed plenty of houses have no parking immediately outside. They always park 25, 50, or 100 yards away, so until we have a street full of shiny charging points its a no go ... and even then ... how long do you think it will be before the local yobs realise its amusing to unplug a street full of cars in the middle of the night, or being more enterprising, nick the cables? Where I live about as long as it takes for Saturday night to come round .
And yet, at the same time, lots do..DonkeyApple said:
Of those who live in London and have no means to park their car near their property, what percentage have near £100k cars? The lack of driveways is somewhat a non issue for this Tesla.
What percentage of any street has £100k cars? The issue arises when Tesla tries to sell £30k cars, which they absolutely must do, and in volume, to make their infrastructure investment worthwhile.boxerTen said:
DonkeyApple said:
boxerTen said:
Lots of houses in London have no private, nor off-street parking. We park somewhere on the street wherever a space is available, i.e. not outside the house, indeed plenty of houses have no parking immediately outside. They always park 25, 50, or 100 yards away, so until we have a street full of shiny charging points its a no go ... and even then ... how long do you think it will be before the local yobs realise its amusing to unplug a street full of cars in the middle of the night, or being more enterprising, nick the cables? Where I live about as long as it takes for Saturday night to come round .
And yet, at the same time, lots do..DonkeyApple said:
Of those who live in London and have no means to park their car near their property, what percentage have near £100k cars? The lack of driveways is somewhat a non issue for this Tesla.
What percentage of any street has £100k cars? The issue arises when Tesla tries to sell £30k cars, which they absolutely must do, and in volume, to make their infrastructure investment worthwhile.Re the latter point, absolutely. They lose money on every car they sell and need the high volume, lower value market to deliver the kind of volume they need if they are to stand a chance of being profitable.
So, who in America doesn't have a driveway yet has a car and the money to buy what will still be an expensive car? Same question for the UK? What manufacturer has a model that appeals to 100% of the potential car buying public?
The numbers mooted in this thread suggest that around 50% of car owners have access to some form of off street parking so is 50% of the car buying UK public enough? Strikes me that at a tenth of that it's a pretty big niche still.
But let's not beat about the bush here, there seems to be an argument that people who live in typically smaller properties in cheaper, higher density areas are going to determine the future of EVs? Do we honestly think that is the case? Of course not. EVs will either become commercially superior alternatives to ICE and thrive or they won't. If they don't then all the subsidies, grants and investment capital is going to drain away and it will have been a short lived, artificial flurry. But it won't be determined by the poorer demographic which contains the highest percentage of non car owning households, single car households and lowest new car purchases.
No one really expects EVs to have any penetration into say the bowls of a depressed Northern city or ex mining town. But look at the South East of England where firstly the largest number of Britons live but also have the greatest wealth, enormous access to off street parking and businesses that have to compete hard for footfall and are already using metres to help that competition.
An interesting aside is that where I live there are large numbers of EVs and quite a few living on the street with no access to domestic power. Those owners I have assumed are slightly fanatical as it doesn't seem logical to have an EV without the huge benefit of home charging. But we have a lot of driveways around here and there are very many EVs about. Electric Micras, Smarts, iMievs, Twizzys, GWiz, i3s, weird Italian beach buggy things, electric delivery vans, Tesla sports cars, at least a dozen Tesla Ss, Leafs, Zoes. And in the whole area there is only one remote charge point that I am aware of. They are common here because of a combination of high wealth and old school yogurt weavers but they are becoming more common out in suburbia which is to be honest the real home of the EV, not city centres where there is no real need for a car at all or in the countryside where ICE will be more practical for really some time.
Tesla dont lose money in selling cars. They built the roadster with lotus to get the money to tool up the model s. Plus funding from a US governent loan about $400million iirc. They paid it off 4 years early. The model s sales are being used to fund the r & d to get costs down and get the giga factory built... just got final approval in Nevada. The one factory will make as many batteries each year as were made worldwide by all manufacturer last year. Enough to make circa 500,000 cars a year. There are 3 more potential factory sites in the pipe line. And rumour they might stick 1 in europe thigh that may be a car assembly plant not a battery facility.
The super charger network isn't really free. They add £2000 in to a base model 60kwh if you want supercharging facility so you can assume they just add that into the 85kwh upgrade cost too. Someone worked out thats £900 on electricty.. @ wholesale prices that's bout 65,000miles worth. And £1100 towards capital costs of solar kit charging and the sc station itself. Each sc cost a couple of hundred thousand and 1kw of pv is about a grand now. So you basically get free lifetime fuel thrown in from the 1kw if of pv you paid for which generates even when you don't need it. Part of their business is stationary grid storage which means they can make a killing selling electric between 4pm and 8pm.
Free isn't much cheaper than 1.2 p mile which is what you pay on economy 7. Hence why people don't go there to fill up all the time. Why sit aid in Costa for 40 minutes (especially as a cup of coffee there nwarly costs note than 85kwh of electric at home) But handy if on a longer trip away from home. They are also putting super chargers in City locations to cater for the urbanites with only off street parking. As well as locations near to motorway junctions - not necessarily @ services. Indeed the first 3 UK sites were 2 in Central London and 1 in Birmingham city centre.
Regardless to off street parking. Impasse you win. Electric cars are only suitable for 30% of car owners (today). So about 6 million potential buyers. Once that lot are done by the mid 2020s 100 kwh batteries will cost £5000 so all the middleclass londeners with of street parking (& no realneed for a car) will be able to pop to waitrose and get a charge once a week whilst they pick up their fois gras and champagne. That's starts around 2025. Finally by 2030 to 2035 they'll be so cheap that a base spec Ford Fiesta can have EV same cost as petrol engine.
Don't worry about lost tax revenue. Just google Road usage pricing. Think toll roads done via gps or something like london congestion charge. Except they'll be charging you just for causing congestion, not for emitting small particulates & nox (which are more dangerous to humans in the UK than CO2).
Last point Tesla released their patents for FREE not for a fee. Elon says he wants to see more makers building EVs. Thats like saying "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough". The whole reason he started Tesla was to sell EV parts. But no one bought from him. So he had to build the car to prove it was possible. I just wish someone else could have a go so we get a choice.
The super charger network isn't really free. They add £2000 in to a base model 60kwh if you want supercharging facility so you can assume they just add that into the 85kwh upgrade cost too. Someone worked out thats £900 on electricty.. @ wholesale prices that's bout 65,000miles worth. And £1100 towards capital costs of solar kit charging and the sc station itself. Each sc cost a couple of hundred thousand and 1kw of pv is about a grand now. So you basically get free lifetime fuel thrown in from the 1kw if of pv you paid for which generates even when you don't need it. Part of their business is stationary grid storage which means they can make a killing selling electric between 4pm and 8pm.
Free isn't much cheaper than 1.2 p mile which is what you pay on economy 7. Hence why people don't go there to fill up all the time. Why sit aid in Costa for 40 minutes (especially as a cup of coffee there nwarly costs note than 85kwh of electric at home) But handy if on a longer trip away from home. They are also putting super chargers in City locations to cater for the urbanites with only off street parking. As well as locations near to motorway junctions - not necessarily @ services. Indeed the first 3 UK sites were 2 in Central London and 1 in Birmingham city centre.
Regardless to off street parking. Impasse you win. Electric cars are only suitable for 30% of car owners (today). So about 6 million potential buyers. Once that lot are done by the mid 2020s 100 kwh batteries will cost £5000 so all the middleclass londeners with of street parking (& no realneed for a car) will be able to pop to waitrose and get a charge once a week whilst they pick up their fois gras and champagne. That's starts around 2025. Finally by 2030 to 2035 they'll be so cheap that a base spec Ford Fiesta can have EV same cost as petrol engine.
Don't worry about lost tax revenue. Just google Road usage pricing. Think toll roads done via gps or something like london congestion charge. Except they'll be charging you just for causing congestion, not for emitting small particulates & nox (which are more dangerous to humans in the UK than CO2).
Last point Tesla released their patents for FREE not for a fee. Elon says he wants to see more makers building EVs. Thats like saying "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough". The whole reason he started Tesla was to sell EV parts. But no one bought from him. So he had to build the car to prove it was possible. I just wish someone else could have a go so we get a choice.
They do lose money selling cars.
They make a money selling the ZEV credits.
I think this time last year was the first time that they had what accountants can call a profitable quarter but each car is a loss maker. The key is that the loss per unit is shrinking quicker than investors originally bought in on.
The non US growth could double volumes and that's likely to be the point where they could break even. So long as the massive investment in the smaller cars doesn't incur any hiccups in predicted revenues.
It's all looking good but each car is a loss still and it's only because of the ZEV credits they get on each unit that they then sell on that they can make enough revenue to match the burn.
In reality they are a carbon credit trading firm with a car building arm.
They make a money selling the ZEV credits.
I think this time last year was the first time that they had what accountants can call a profitable quarter but each car is a loss maker. The key is that the loss per unit is shrinking quicker than investors originally bought in on.
The non US growth could double volumes and that's likely to be the point where they could break even. So long as the massive investment in the smaller cars doesn't incur any hiccups in predicted revenues.
It's all looking good but each car is a loss still and it's only because of the ZEV credits they get on each unit that they then sell on that they can make enough revenue to match the burn.
In reality they are a carbon credit trading firm with a car building arm.
mrclav said:
've read what RoverP6B has to say and I realise that he represents an old world/luddite view, one that is becoming increasingly irrelevant in this new age of (motoring) technology. If you have problems with smartphones/iDrive/touchscreens/any form of new tech etc then this car is definitely not for you. Humans evolve, society evolves and technology evolves - you can either choose to live (and die) in the past or embrace the future with open arms. I personally, and evidently many others given Tesla's success, choose to do the latter.
So you once owned a Rover P6B; that car is a dinosaur which has no significance to anyone under the age of 50 and has as much relevance to modern motoring in 2014 as a Model T Ford; my only connection to them is seeing them in an old TV cop show or archive footage (and I always thought they were hideously ugly to boot). Face it, your opinion may be valid but in the face of undeniable progress it mean less than ever.
I'm not really so old-world or Luddite. After all, Porsche built a torque-vectoring 4WD pure EV in 1898, with a range-extended version following shortly thereafter. The vast majority of the general public find the onward march of technology bewildering and also find quality classic cars attractive. Speak to my 23-year-old son, for example, and he'll agree - he does get on with smartphones, but also hates iDrive and its ilk, pure EVs and loves 1960s/70s/80s classic barges. Last I knew, he was searching for Citroen CXs in the hope of buying one to use as a daily driver. Incidentally, the P6 was a pretty revolutionary thing in its day, one of the first cars designed from the ground up with crash safety in mind, pretty sophisticated suspension - the prototype even had a 200shp jet engine (unfortunately, it was decided that lag, 20mpg kerosene thirst, very high operating temperatures and speeds plus legal issues made putting it in production impractical). The production car became, in its sixth year, the first European volume model to feature an all-aluminium engine (the famous ex-Buick 215ci/3.5 litre V8). It remained a fine and competitive piece of kit to the end of its production life in 1977 - although by then British Leyland build quality issues were becoming apparent.So you once owned a Rover P6B; that car is a dinosaur which has no significance to anyone under the age of 50 and has as much relevance to modern motoring in 2014 as a Model T Ford; my only connection to them is seeing them in an old TV cop show or archive footage (and I always thought they were hideously ugly to boot). Face it, your opinion may be valid but in the face of undeniable progress it mean less than ever.
flatso said:
Great thread! The issue of sound is very interesting and is taken seriously (as it should be) here on PH. I guess it really depends on the cars application. For city driving and long journeys quiteness is a quality I greatly admire in a car. Sound does however become critical with cars used for fun (weekend toys, sports weapons).
Much like the transmission, the manual has no place in city and long distance cars, but it should remain as an option on absolutely every model that has sporty pretentions. I don't care much for a sports car with no manual and no erectile sound.
I disagree, I enjoy a nice-sounding engine wherever I am. I also prefer a manual gearbox in all circumstances, although the state of my knees may rather erode any such enjoyment. That said, I've just arranged to buy a V8 barge with a slushmatic (more on that anon elsewhere). However, if EVs start to replace the majority of mundane inline-four-cylinder shopping trollies making short to medium range journeys, there is perhaps some hope that ambient noise levels will reduce - although tyres are a bigger issue IMO.Much like the transmission, the manual has no place in city and long distance cars, but it should remain as an option on absolutely every model that has sporty pretentions. I don't care much for a sports car with no manual and no erectile sound.
sisu said:
TVR sagaris LS V8 conversion by Topcats
DON'T DO IT! As fine a motor as the LS is, the straight six is so much more characterful - and the much-publicised reliability problems have all been ironed out now. Al Melling, the bloke who designed them, has made a good living out of improving, fixing and replacing AJP-6 engines.Impasse said:
So let's have a quick summary of the previous handful of posts:
Q: "How do those without a home charging solution refuel their cars?" - and that's 70% of households apparently.
A: "You don't know what you're talking about, stop asking silly questions."
It's like conversing with Alex Salmond.
Exactly. No actual answers or explanations, just a load of condescending bluff. Just like Wee Eck.Q: "How do those without a home charging solution refuel their cars?" - and that's 70% of households apparently.
A: "You don't know what you're talking about, stop asking silly questions."
It's like conversing with Alex Salmond.
I get what people are saying about the charging not working and their fears, I think the next TopGear episode will play to their fears when they try to charge a BMW i8 at a rapid charging station (the i8 battery isn't a rapid charging type as it has an engine) and the old codger parking on the wrong side to where the filler, reading glasses on the end of his nose to add some theatre to the programme.
But then as an owner I haven't had this. As I have mentioned there is an app you can get
https://www.zap-map.com/ that show you your nearest charge point which I thought going by the TopGear fumbling I would be panicking and running extension leads out of pub windows. BUT I would like to reiterate that using the car day to day this isn't an issue.
Since I last posted we have done a 60km journey to the shops, the airport and then to get the kids from school. It was full when we left and it is full again this morning. Our supermarket has a charge point and yes I use it when we are there, but it isn't necessary. A bit like getting a covered carpark when it is raining.
We could fill up at these charge stations if we didn't have a charge point at home.
It is no worse than owning a car that needs Shell V-power or BP Ultimate to give its all.
The other question or fear is that people unplug it. The plug you get at a charge point is locked so once you are connected you need to it you need to unlock the car to disconnect like the fuel filler flap on your car. Do people syphon fuel out of your car?
As for the TVR well I had a Cerbera when they were new, so the love affair with the AJP6 is a tainted. Yes I know there are people who can rebuild them and there are some improvements. But I don't live in the UK anymore and I want to use it in Europe without the stress. I will get them to put the AJP6 and other TVR bits on a Euro Pallet and it can sit in the corner of the garage as a conversation piece.
Also the Buick/Rover V8 has a gamble with dropped steel liners even with a new block from the factory - I have been through that joy with Range Rovers when they were new and Yes there are people - just like the AJP6 TVR people who rebuild them, but it is a weak engine especially the more you get towards 400hp.
The LS7 works straight out of the box 505hp/470lb-ft and comes with a 36mth/50,000 mile warranty that I can get serviced at a Vauxhall/Opel/Chevy dealer.
But then as an owner I haven't had this. As I have mentioned there is an app you can get
https://www.zap-map.com/ that show you your nearest charge point which I thought going by the TopGear fumbling I would be panicking and running extension leads out of pub windows. BUT I would like to reiterate that using the car day to day this isn't an issue.
Since I last posted we have done a 60km journey to the shops, the airport and then to get the kids from school. It was full when we left and it is full again this morning. Our supermarket has a charge point and yes I use it when we are there, but it isn't necessary. A bit like getting a covered carpark when it is raining.
We could fill up at these charge stations if we didn't have a charge point at home.
It is no worse than owning a car that needs Shell V-power or BP Ultimate to give its all.
The other question or fear is that people unplug it. The plug you get at a charge point is locked so once you are connected you need to it you need to unlock the car to disconnect like the fuel filler flap on your car. Do people syphon fuel out of your car?
As for the TVR well I had a Cerbera when they were new, so the love affair with the AJP6 is a tainted. Yes I know there are people who can rebuild them and there are some improvements. But I don't live in the UK anymore and I want to use it in Europe without the stress. I will get them to put the AJP6 and other TVR bits on a Euro Pallet and it can sit in the corner of the garage as a conversation piece.
Also the Buick/Rover V8 has a gamble with dropped steel liners even with a new block from the factory - I have been through that joy with Range Rovers when they were new and Yes there are people - just like the AJP6 TVR people who rebuild them, but it is a weak engine especially the more you get towards 400hp.
The LS7 works straight out of the box 505hp/470lb-ft and comes with a 36mth/50,000 mile warranty that I can get serviced at a Vauxhall/Opel/Chevy dealer.
DonkeyApple said:
98elise said:
boxerTen said:
dvs_dave said:
But what the naysayers forget is that you can charge your car at home. You can't fill your IC car up at home every night. So each morning you leave home with a "full tank". Given most people's usage, a visit to a supercharger station would be only very occasional. I'd also wager that most folk waste more time overall having to go on a 15 min detour to the petrol station to fill their car up in "only 5 mins", a few times a week.
Lots of houses in London have no private, nor off-street parking. We park somewhere on the street wherever a space is available, i.e. not outside the house, indeed plenty of houses have no parking immediately outside. They always park 25, 50, or 100 yards away, so until we have a street full of shiny charging points its a no go ... and even then ... how long do you think it will be before the local yobs realise its amusing to unplug a street full of cars in the middle of the night, or being more enterprising, nick the cables? Where I live about as long as it takes for Saturday night to come round .It doesn't make the concept of an EV flawed. Nobody is saying that EV's are a one size fits all.
My street is full of houses with off street parking.
It is a blessing in disguise in reality. For those of is who love our petrol engines we will need the support of the drivewayless masses to protect our right to drive evil, baby killing cars.
Obviously, diesel owners must convert or die.
Who would have thought 5 years ago that F1 would be hybrids and so would the latest crop of supercars?
Let's get one thing straight. Tesla dont make a loss on building cars which is topped up by tax credits to make them profitable. They could stop all future aspirations. Stick to making the cars they sell now just for USA and then they would makes heaps of money. So the manufacturing cost per car itself is fine. What they have though is the costs of rolling out new dealer networks in dozens of countries. Creating the supercharger network. Investing in new factories. They are a typical tech start up burning cash for fast growth rather than income. Yes they take a about 50-70 million dollars per quarter in tax credits (not from UK sales though) but their sales income is from selling cars is now over half a billion.
The right wing of America doesn't like it. Using effectively a transfer of cash from existing car companies (whose had years of support) to a new kid on the block. I think without the credits tesla would just have to slow down their overseas expanding to keep spending within current income levels from selling cars. Ie about 200 million a year less.
The right wing of America doesn't like it. Using effectively a transfer of cash from existing car companies (whose had years of support) to a new kid on the block. I think without the credits tesla would just have to slow down their overseas expanding to keep spending within current income levels from selling cars. Ie about 200 million a year less.
98elise said:
Just to pick you up on one point, Tesla now make a profit so they are not making a loss on every car. They made a loss for the first 10 years though.
I don't believe that they do. Q1 2013 they reported a profit of $15 for that quarter but that was only because they sold €70m of Eco tax credits to other manufacturers. 2013 as a whole was a loss. Guidance on 2014 doesn't expect a profit. They don't need to make a profit at this stage. They are ahead in their model. Revenue this year has spiked enormously on the back of stopping the Roadster back in 2012 and focussing all resources on the practical S along with opening up overseas sales.
I don't believe they can post a profit until the cheaper, volume car comes on stream in about three years but that whole car is reliant on them having their giga factory completed and operational so there is considerable danger there. But so far, with the exception of the credit crunch nearly sending them to the wall along with almost every car builder in the US, they are running their business model ahead of expectations.
But that has its own risks as we saw these last weeks as premium loads into the equity pricing, the markets' expectations move ahead of reality and then we see positive data leading to disappointment and a sell off. Add that it has occurred during a period when VIX looks like it is going to 30 so a leverage growth play like Tesla would get slammed anyway and the SPX is heading to give back all 2014 gains and it's hardly surprising. A real concern for Tesla though is the strong USD. It's climbed hard against most currencies recently and that means prices in overseas markets will be going up if levels hold and that will have obvious implications.
boxerTen said:
Lots of houses in London have no private, nor off-street parking. We park somewhere on the street wherever a space is available, i.e. not outside the house, indeed plenty of houses have no parking immediately outside. They always park 25, 50, or 100 yards away, so until we have a street full of shiny charging points its a no go ... and even then ... how long do you think it will be before the local yobs realise its amusing to unplug a street full of cars in the middle of the night, or being more enterprising, nick the cables? Where I live about as long as it takes for Saturday night to come round .
For a forward thinking council, they could allocate some of the bays to being electric vehicle only and install charging posts in those bays. The vast majority of EVs can use a 32 amp type 2 post to charge from and they are not that expensive to install. The cables are electromechanically locked to the post and and can be locked at the car end too (Nissan Leaf has an autolock facility). I have tried to take a locked cable out of a post for a demonstration and I didn't even get close (I am more towards powerfully built Director...). The car can also alert you if charging is interupted. .Car Club only parking bays already exist around London and that could easily be extended to EVs, especially when the city could DESPERATELY do with reducing emissions of NOx and PM. They would need to be sensibly rolled out with supply just ahead of demand, so that there weren't legions of empty spaces tempting non-EV cars to get fines and causing frustration. A bigger chance of a dedicated parking space could be your reward for helping reduce the air quality issue in your borough.
98elise said:
DonkeyApple said:
98elise said:
boxerTen said:
dvs_dave said:
But what the naysayers forget is that you can charge your car at home. You can't fill your IC car up at home every night. So each morning you leave home with a "full tank". Given most people's usage, a visit to a supercharger station would be only very occasional. I'd also wager that most folk waste more time overall having to go on a 15 min detour to the petrol station to fill their car up in "only 5 mins", a few times a week.
Lots of houses in London have no private, nor off-street parking. We park somewhere on the street wherever a space is available, i.e. not outside the house, indeed plenty of houses have no parking immediately outside. They always park 25, 50, or 100 yards away, so until we have a street full of shiny charging points its a no go ... and even then ... how long do you think it will be before the local yobs realise its amusing to unplug a street full of cars in the middle of the night, or being more enterprising, nick the cables? Where I live about as long as it takes for Saturday night to come round .It doesn't make the concept of an EV flawed. Nobody is saying that EV's are a one size fits all.
My street is full of houses with off street parking.
It is a blessing in disguise in reality. For those of is who love our petrol engines we will need the support of the drivewayless masses to protect our right to drive evil, baby killing cars.
Obviously, diesel owners must convert or die.
Who would have thought 5 years ago that F1 would be hybrids and so would the latest crop of supercars?
If EVs reach the point that they are substantially cheaper to buy and run than ICE you will then have the weird position that ICEs will not just be seen as evil baby killers but also as playthings for the rich (Rich in Britain meaning anyone with less debt and a better work ethic than yourself). At that point the political effect will ramp up considerably as the future version of people like Milliband will be on their hustings informing the stupid how it is all the fault of the rich and that they will be punished for their crimes.
As you allude to, tech moves forward fast. Deliver smaller and more powerful batteries and that will be the sea change in what is currently best to say an experiment or project in the world of motoring.
I want all utility vehicles to be EVs. It'll make everyone's lives better but I fear that the perfect balance of having every bland s
tbox replaced by a silent EV while every ICE on the road is an interesting car making a lovely noise is just too much to expect. DonkeyApple said:
I think the evidence is abundant that given the opportunity ICEs would be taxed and legislated off the roads. Once you reach a certain point of decline you then lose your fueling points and that is that.
There will certainly be less petrol stations than there are now, but I'm absolutely certain they will continue to exist well past the end of our life-times. 
RoverP6B said:
The vast majority of the general public find the onward march of technology bewildering and also find quality classic cars attractive.
I think the vast majority of the general public couldn't care less what their car was powered by, they want something practical for their needs, affordable and reliable. I am not sure that the majority would buy a classic car rather than the latest Fiesta/Corsa/Focus/Astra etc.greygoose said:
I think the vast majority of the general public couldn't care less what their car was powered by, they want something practical for their needs, affordable and reliable. I am not sure that the majority would buy a classic car rather than the latest Fiesta/Corsa/Focus/Astra etc.
I agree that most people don't really care how their cars are powered, but I know several people with no interest in cars who insist on owning a manual transmission (with three pedals), so they won't be getting an EV any time soon. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff