RE: Tesla launches 691hp Model S P85D
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
AnotherClarkey said:
Which exotic and noxious chemicals in particular? Why will the Jaguar last longer?
EVs use huge quantities of nickel, mercury and other such exotic metals, the mining of which is an environmental disaster. EV battery packs last 5-10 years max.Anyway the battery packs are pretty recyclable. As in you put the pack into Nissan's new factory, change less than 5% of the material and out pops a brand new battery, fresh as a daisy.
Plus you haven't needed spark plugs, platinum catalyst, any exhaust at all actually, oil filters, air filters or engine oil. At all. Ever. I'd love to see what's actually left on the service sheet. Check the brakes, lube the doors and give it a wash?
RoverP6B said:
AnotherClarkey said:
Which exotic and noxious chemicals in particular? Why will the Jaguar last longer?
EVs use huge quantities of nickel, mercury and other such exotic metals, the mining of which is an environmental disaster. EV battery packs last 5-10 years max.The statement you just made has been repeatedly trashed since for example the daily mail ran a story about nickel smelting being an eco disaster. It was... in the 1970s, like most industry back then. But the plant they referred to had to install scrubbers as part of legislation and the forest in the area has regrown.
Why is it people have to talk utter b
ks about environment impact and CO2 becuase its electric powered? Even if its as dirty and noisy as as ICE (which it isnt) its just gone to the top of the performance charts, for anything upto about £250k. IIRC.Really I should just start a blog and refer people to some basic facts to save myself typing itmall again.
PS the battery inthe Telsa has an unlimited milage 8 year warranty. They have said in future you will be able to upgrade to higher range batteries and get $12,000 trade in as they will reuse your battery in their superchargers as buffer storage. Its not an empty promise.. buyers of the original telsa roadster can now upgrade their old 250 mile battery to a 400 mile battery using the latest cells. Where as an ICE would be scrap after 10 years, I think Telsas will still be being traded in 20-30 years time, but with 200kWh packs in what was a 2012 original model S.
A Scotsman said:
It would take me three days to drive to Plymouth from the N of Scotland to see my son & family whereas I can now do it in one day at a push. I'll wait for fuel cell technology thanks.
If you can wait 6 months there will be enough Superchargers to make the trip in a day (not to mention all the other non-Tesla charging points). You will be waiting much longer for fuel cells and hydrogen infrastructure.kambites said:
It is by no means "normal" to cruise at 90mph in the UK. I'm fairly sure the average speed of vehicles on UK motorways is less than 70mph and I'm equally sure that it's falling due to a combination of high fuel prices and congestion.
Anyway, plenty of people have tested the current draw as speed varies. At a steady 90mph you'll have a range of between 150 and 175 miles depending on what you've got turned on. There are probably a few people who regularly do over 150 miles at 90mph in the UK, but it's hardly the norm.
Unfortunately when it comes to range the average speed is irrelevant. At motorway speeds aerodynamic drag dominates and that increase roughly as the square of the speed, so those portions of the journey carried out at higher speeds must be weighted more heavily. In the extreme, if I spend an hour stationary on the M1 and an hour at 90 mph I average only 45 mph, but the energy consumed is identical to a one hour trip at 90 mph.Anyway, plenty of people have tested the current draw as speed varies. At a steady 90mph you'll have a range of between 150 and 175 miles depending on what you've got turned on. There are probably a few people who regularly do over 150 miles at 90mph in the UK, but it's hardly the norm.
Edited by kambites on Friday 10th October 21:42
Not exactly rocket science, but impressive numbers... Especially the Range Rover rivalling weight.
I do think Tesla are missing a trick with these irreverent machines though. Or perhaps I mean, why isn't there another company (a European equivalent I suppose) who are designing and developing something useful for UK/European city roads? 300 mile range, Polo gti performance, half hour charge, and most importantly, desirable? Who the hell wants a saloon? It's the most carpet salesmen of all car formats.
Oh, and I have to keep taking exception with "...that weight is perfectly distributed 50/50 front/rear."
Can we not just say "distributed 50/50"? I'm sure you could describe the ratio as perfect (if you must), but that's not what's implied. 50:50 as a balance is not "perfect".
I do think Tesla are missing a trick with these irreverent machines though. Or perhaps I mean, why isn't there another company (a European equivalent I suppose) who are designing and developing something useful for UK/European city roads? 300 mile range, Polo gti performance, half hour charge, and most importantly, desirable? Who the hell wants a saloon? It's the most carpet salesmen of all car formats.
Oh, and I have to keep taking exception with "...that weight is perfectly distributed 50/50 front/rear."
Can we not just say "distributed 50/50"? I'm sure you could describe the ratio as perfect (if you must), but that's not what's implied. 50:50 as a balance is not "perfect".
PunterCam said:
Not exactly rocket science, but impressive numbers... Especially the Range Rover rivalling weight.
I do think Tesla are missing a trick with these irreverent machines though. Or perhaps I mean, why isn't there another company (a European equivalent I suppose) who are designing and developing something useful for UK/European city roads? 300 mile range, Polo gti performance, half hour charge, and most importantly, desirable? Who the hell wants a saloon? It's the most carpet salesmen of all car formats.
Oh, and I have to keep taking exception with "...that weight is perfectly distributed 50/50 front/rear."
Can we not just say "distributed 50/50"? I'm sure you could describe the ratio as perfect (if you must), but that's not what's implied. 50:50 as a balance is not "perfect".
You realise it is a hatch, not a saloon?I do think Tesla are missing a trick with these irreverent machines though. Or perhaps I mean, why isn't there another company (a European equivalent I suppose) who are designing and developing something useful for UK/European city roads? 300 mile range, Polo gti performance, half hour charge, and most importantly, desirable? Who the hell wants a saloon? It's the most carpet salesmen of all car formats.
Oh, and I have to keep taking exception with "...that weight is perfectly distributed 50/50 front/rear."
Can we not just say "distributed 50/50"? I'm sure you could describe the ratio as perfect (if you must), but that's not what's implied. 50:50 as a balance is not "perfect".
TransverseTight said:
Bang.
That was the sounds of the first nail being hammerd into the coffin of performance GT cars, Aston, Maserati, Labourghini, Ferrari. You better come up with a response to this or your days are numbered.
A 691bhp AWD car that can do 0-60 in 3.2, take you, wife and 3 grown up kids and a lot of luggage (or 2 more under 11s) for under £100k.
Generally nowadays 0-125 mph times are used for performance cars/supercars since 0-60 times just tell one how sticky the tyres and the proportion of weight over the driving wheels. I suspect the Tesla's 0-125mph is not great (is it even quoted?) since its electric motors, like all electric motors, produce their maximum torque at stall and so have a power curve that tails off dramatically. How much power is available at 125 mph in the new Tesla?That was the sounds of the first nail being hammerd into the coffin of performance GT cars, Aston, Maserati, Labourghini, Ferrari. You better come up with a response to this or your days are numbered.
A 691bhp AWD car that can do 0-60 in 3.2, take you, wife and 3 grown up kids and a lot of luggage (or 2 more under 11s) for under £100k.
Edited by TransverseTight on Friday 10th October 22:46
underphil said:
Worth bearing in mind that with a car like the Tesla a lot of the battery weight is below the level of the driveshafts so the centre of gravity will be lower than the equivalent ICE car, so it'll hide it's weight better
Granted, but that's still no substitute for not having that 369kg to start with.AnotherClarkey said:
The mining of of most metals/metal ores is an environmental disaster - the trick is to recycle.
True, but a lot of this stuff simply isn't recyclable to such an extent - and we're witnessing a huge growth from almost nowhere of this industry, so reusing existing material simply isn't an option much of the time.TransverseTight said:
Look, I don't mean to sound rude, but it looks as if you just joined the EV debate, about 8 years too late. this has all been done to death since the original prius came out.
The statement you just made has been repeatedly trashed since for example the daily mail ran a story about nickel smelting being an eco disaster. It was... in the 1970s, like most industry back then. But the plant they referred to had to install scrubbers as part of legislation and the forest in the area has regrown.
Why is it people have to talk utter bks about environment impact and CO2 becuase its electric powered? Even if its as dirty and noisy as as ICE (which it isnt) its just gone to the top of the performance charts, for anything upto about £250k. IIRC.
Really I should just start a blog and refer people to some basic facts to save myself typing itmall again.
PS the battery inthe Telsa has an unlimited milage 8 year warranty. They have said in future you will be able to upgrade to higher range batteries and get $12,000 trade in as they will reuse your battery in their superchargers as buffer storage. Its not an empty promise.. buyers of the original telsa roadster can now upgrade their old 250 mile battery to a 400 mile battery using the latest cells. Where as an ICE would be scrap after 10 years, I think Telsas will still be being traded in 20-30 years time, but with 200kWh packs in what was a 2012 original model S.
I've seen a great deal more than Faily Heil articles about nickel - and it's the actual mining, not just smelting. The eco-disaster goes on, whatever greenwash there has been. You won't find me talking about CO2, it's one thing I'm not concerned about - but pollution and deforestation are big issues. Since the Tesla's chassis IS the battery, I'd like to know how they'll get it out. I'd also like to know where you get the impression that 10-year-old AMG S-classes, Jaguar XJRs, Audi S8s and top-of-the-range 7-series are being scrapped routinely. With a modicum of basic maintenance, all should last vastly longer than that. The statement you just made has been repeatedly trashed since for example the daily mail ran a story about nickel smelting being an eco disaster. It was... in the 1970s, like most industry back then. But the plant they referred to had to install scrubbers as part of legislation and the forest in the area has regrown.
Why is it people have to talk utter b
ks about environment impact and CO2 becuase its electric powered? Even if its as dirty and noisy as as ICE (which it isnt) its just gone to the top of the performance charts, for anything upto about £250k. IIRC.Really I should just start a blog and refer people to some basic facts to save myself typing itmall again.
PS the battery inthe Telsa has an unlimited milage 8 year warranty. They have said in future you will be able to upgrade to higher range batteries and get $12,000 trade in as they will reuse your battery in their superchargers as buffer storage. Its not an empty promise.. buyers of the original telsa roadster can now upgrade their old 250 mile battery to a 400 mile battery using the latest cells. Where as an ICE would be scrap after 10 years, I think Telsas will still be being traded in 20-30 years time, but with 200kWh packs in what was a 2012 original model S.
boxerTen said:
Generally nowadays 0-125 mph times are used for performance cars/supercars since 0-60 times just tell one how sticky the tyres and the proportion of weight over the driving wheels.
"Generally" according to who or what? I never saw any cars 0-125 quoted in any article, and couldnt actually tell you that figure for any car. Maybe if you play world series top trumps at las vegas or something 
In reality who is going to be driving anywhere in the UK where they can get a 0-125mph run from the lights?
Goal posts are now over here ===========> | |.
I may be being pedantic, but if you put warmed up racing slicks on a 1300kg ford fiesta they would be really sticky, but say with only 100hp youd find 60mph takes a longer time to reach than say a 400bhp audi quattro weighing 1800kg with summer tyres which takes a fair bit longer than an P85D weighing over 2 tonnes. Hence a good measure for real world useable performance is still 0-60. The other one most people would be intereted in is the in gear 50-70. Which i think the telsa would destroy most cars on. Check out the youtube launch vids... about 4.n secs 0-70. So 1.n 50-70. No gears, no revs needed. Push pedal and go.
You have to go for a test drive... seriously, after I drove one I put in to action a business plan I had been sitting on for two years just so I can hopefully get the cash together to buy one. Most impressive was pick up from 65 to <sensored> on the M4. Press the pedal and it just goes sssssssh.. and you are doing a speed more than you intended. you really do have an excuse for speeding! if you get stopped get the PC to drive 1 mile in it and he'll probably let you off with a warning to keep an eye on the dash
A Scotsman said:
It would take me three days to drive to Plymouth from the N of Scotland to see my son & family whereas I can now do it in one day at a push. I'll wait for fuel cell technology thanks.
stuck record... you were told about this before on another thread. besides, if you need to do this trip daily, Or even weekly, Id say you probably want a 520d. or XF2.2d and lots of cubby hold for red bull.
The tesla also isnt much good if you need to carry sheep to market, want something to mix concrete in, or like ploughing fields. There are better suited vehciles to differnent usage patterns. I also think its a bit excessive for commuting, if your office is at the end of the garden, or 1/2 mile down the road in an industrial estate.
I've never seen a review of a 458 where someone says... but I can't take my wife, 3 teenage sons and 2 toddlers. if we want to make rare scenarios... say your sons car was in for a service when you visit on his birthday, You'd spend about 5 hours ferrying your son and family back and forth to a restaurant in a 458 for example. a better idea would be to call a taxi, or rent a VW transporter for the weekend. Or drive down in the telsa instad of the 458. Stop off at carlisle and Bristol Superchargers (assuming its in 2015).
Dont hold out for fuel cell technology. What are tou going to do when the tank runs out near Preston? and again around bristol? hydrogen filling stations arent exactly cheap to build. At least in an emergency an EV can be filled up at most peoples houses, if you dont mind an overnight stay. With your hydrogen car you might be stuck for a few years till they roll out a nearby filling station.
Some very interesting posts, IMO the change to EV from ICE will of course happen, and once the technology takes hold, the change might be quicker than you would expect. A Smaller industry, but witness how quickly the change from film to digital cameras occurred, once the technology filters to the mainstream with obvious benefits to the consumer, people make the switch and the industry evolves rapidly. Those companies who don't evolve become obsolete. The technology is very nearly in place now for the change from ICE to EV, it just needs the step to the mainstream affordable level by a major manufacturer. If BMW released a 3 series EV with a 250 mile range where the financials stack up for the average buyer, the landscape might change far quicker than you might think, especially if they follow that up with EV versions of their entire range rather than just the niche I3/i8 range. But, if I read tomorrow that they had done this, I wouldn't be that surprised as it's just a natural progression from today's technology. Imagine also if one if their competitors, let's say Audi, is caught flat footed by the change in the market. You could see a rapid shift in the market with some companies disappearing (try going into a camera shop and buying a new Minolta camera, but back in the day they were on a par with Canon and Nikon)
The price point of this vehicle shows us where the technology sits today, it just needs the step down to the consumer.
Personally, I think ICE will always have it's place but increasingly as the choice of the enthusiast. When I retire in 20 years time, there will be far quicker and more efficient ways to Lap Cadwell park, but I would be driving an ICE car for the enjoyment of the sensations it brings. However, I would be sure that the pits would be full of EV based tow cars.
The price point of this vehicle shows us where the technology sits today, it just needs the step down to the consumer.
Personally, I think ICE will always have it's place but increasingly as the choice of the enthusiast. When I retire in 20 years time, there will be far quicker and more efficient ways to Lap Cadwell park, but I would be driving an ICE car for the enjoyment of the sensations it brings. However, I would be sure that the pits would be full of EV based tow cars.
A Scotsman said:
It would take me three days to drive to Plymouth from the N of Scotland to see my son & family whereas I can now do it in one day at a push. I'll wait for fuel cell technology thanks.
FFS, not you again? You and your mate Rover45 or whatever he's called need to do one and get back to trolling youtube.PunterCam said:
Not exactly rocket science, but impressive numbers... Especially the Range Rover rivalling weight.
I do think Tesla are missing a trick with these irreverent machines though. Or perhaps I mean, why isn't there another company (a European equivalent I suppose) who are designing and developing something useful for UK/European city roads? 300 mile range, Polo gti performance, half hour charge, and most importantly, desirable? Who the hell wants a saloon? It's the most carpet salesmen of all car formats.
.
Haven't BMW started that with the i3? I do think Tesla are missing a trick with these irreverent machines though. Or perhaps I mean, why isn't there another company (a European equivalent I suppose) who are designing and developing something useful for UK/European city roads? 300 mile range, Polo gti performance, half hour charge, and most importantly, desirable? Who the hell wants a saloon? It's the most carpet salesmen of all car formats.
.
boxerTen said:
Wind or tidal power might be better - but the real problem is range. Here in Britain, and in lots of Europe, it is normal to cruise at 90mph+ on the motorway. Tesla conspiciously does not quote range for any speed over 70mph, which may be fine for the US market, but is a joke for Europe.
How many places in Europe have legal 90 mph speed limits besides parts of autobahn?Catatafish said:
Has anyone speculated on how the UK will prop up the tax coffers if everyone has these or other EVs?
Will these herald a vast rise in electricity costs? or a tax at these "supercharger" type facilities?
Road tolls. Much easier to implement and the government can double-dip on ICE powered cars and still claim to be "green".Will these herald a vast rise in electricity costs? or a tax at these "supercharger" type facilities?
RoverP6B said:
I've seen a great deal more than Faily Heil articles about nickel - and it's the actual mining, not just smelting. The eco-disaster goes on, whatever greenwash there has been. You won't find me talking about CO2, it's one thing I'm not concerned about - but pollution and deforestation are big issues. Since the Tesla's chassis IS the battery, I'd like to know how they'll get it out. I'd also like to know where you get the impression that 10-year-old AMG S-classes, Jaguar XJRs, Audi S8s and top-of-the-range 7-series are being scrapped routinely. With a modicum of basic maintenance, all should last vastly longer than that.
You are mistaken - the Tesla's battery is not the chassis and can be removed in a couple of minutes.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff