RE: Tesla launches 691hp Model S P85D
Discussion
thelawnet said:
It's nice, though of course the real CO2/km is actually about the same as a BMW X5 4.4l v8 petrol, given the UK's 459 g CO2/kWh mix http://www.ukenergywatch.org/Electricity/Realtime And higher than pretty much any diesel vehicle on the market.
But yeah rich people can buy these to drive round a track I guess. Although I don't think the lap times will reflect the headline 0-60 figure.
But the reason Tesla have been so successful in the US is that they have supercharging stations, you never pay for the fuel and the charging stations that they have in the UK are from renewable sourced which sort of pisses on your argument.But yeah rich people can buy these to drive round a track I guess. Although I don't think the lap times will reflect the headline 0-60 figure.
So if I gave you a fuel card that gave you the option of free fuel with a BMW X5 4.4 it sounds like a good deal? Well that is what Tesla realised and why they are so popular at the moment.
AnotherClarkey said:
You are mistaken - the Tesla's battery is not the chassis and can be removed in a couple of minutes.
You undo a few bolts and the whole battary pack can be dropped out of the bottom of the car. Tesla even demonstrated an automated rig which could swap batteries in about 30 seconds. These latest Tesla supercar beaters, their quickly growing infrastructure, plus new cheaper 3 series rivals on the way, all adds up to an amazing achievement. The German makers are going to be in trouble shortly.
On a personal note I recently switched from my usual fast thirsty cars to a small turbo four cylinder. Mainly to save running costs while still having some fun. I plan to keep this car a few years. Lets hope when I come to change there is an affordable small Tesla. Cheap running costs with untouchable performance is very appealing.
On a personal note I recently switched from my usual fast thirsty cars to a small turbo four cylinder. Mainly to save running costs while still having some fun. I plan to keep this car a few years. Lets hope when I come to change there is an affordable small Tesla. Cheap running costs with untouchable performance is very appealing.
RoverP6B said:
AnotherClarkey said:
Which exotic and noxious chemicals in particular? Why will the Jaguar last longer?
EVs use huge quantities of nickel, mercury and other such exotic metals, the mining of which is an environmental disaster. EV battery packs last 5-10 years max.Do you have any evidence that EV batteries only last 5-10 years? Actual evidence is that they are very reliable (EV's and Hybrid traction batteried have been around for well over a decade now) and in the small number that need repairs, they can be refurbed (ie indivicual cells or blades can be replaced.
As has been pointed out at the end of their life they are very much recyclable anyway.
98elise said:
As has been pointed out at the end of their life they are very much recyclable anyway.
That's the key thing really, 100% of the rare or hard to refine metals needed for the batteries can be reclaimed. Yes, it's an energy intensive process but orders of magnitude less so than drilling and refining ten year's worth of petrol. JonnyVTEC said:
I love it, people moan EV's are slow, have limited range and ugly. Tesla fixes those and all of a sudden they are too heavy and fast!?
The mind boggles.
Not even 20% heavier and even has similar range? Not bad at all!
It's political. It's the same in all the EV threads. You get the left wing haters of people more successful than then bThe mind boggles.
Not even 20% heavier and even has similar range? Not bad at all!
hing because you have to have a job and savings to buy one and you get the right wingers bhing about yogurt weavers and the world moving forward. Obviously they try and his their real issues behind silly stand at finding faults that aren't really relevant like the old 'everyone drives 1000 miles every time they get in a car' etc
EVs are fantastic purely on the grounds that they bring new experiences to driving and the different tech opens the door to new ways to package the automobile. Just look at this car, it wasn't too many years ago that adding AWD meant adding huge weight and taking up a lot of space. We've seen the Haldex kit move the game on dramatically but the EV shows that there is an even better way of doing it.
EVs with fewer mechanical parts are cheaper to run and service. You can already see the comical ideas that servicers are having to resort to to monetise back end EV revenues in the same model as ICE. BMW demand that you bring your EV in to have your dust caps checked. That's how far EVs put them on the back foot.
Ignore the Eco b
ks. I couldn't car if EVs polluted less or more than ICE. It's the fact that we are experiencing in our lifetime a rapid growth of a new type of car and that is what is exciting. Once battery tech permits cheaper batteries then that is when the game will really change. Range is a red herring. Stats show that the vast majority of daily car usage is well below even the crappest EV range. Access to charging is also a red herring, vast numbers of people do have driveways. Certainly while EVs are expensive it is a near non issue. But it is when the current batteries can be made and replaced for bugger all that EVs will overnight have such a significant price advantage over ICE as to totally decimate that market. It's always about price and for EVs that is the cost of batteries. Nothing else matters.
sisu said:
But the reason Tesla have been so successful in the US is that they have supercharging stations, you never pay for the fuel and the charging stations that they have in the UK are from renewable sourced which sort of pisses on your argument.
So if I gave you a fuel card that gave you the option of free fuel with a BMW X5 4.4 it sounds like a good deal? Well that is what Tesla realised and why they are so popular at the moment.
Do you think the same model is relevant in the UK?So if I gave you a fuel card that gave you the option of free fuel with a BMW X5 4.4 it sounds like a good deal? Well that is what Tesla realised and why they are so popular at the moment.
It was essential in the US for two reasons, firstly the culture of the US and the obsession with being able to drive distances. And most importantly the simple fact that the geography requires a car to be able to drive distances.
In the UK by the time you have left one town you are entering the outskirts of the next. There just aren't the huge geographical voids between our conurbations.
It's a very small percentage of UK car owners who do daily mileage in excess of the Telsa range. And at nearly £100k the price makes it pretty obvious that any owner will own a property with off street parking.
For the few journeys the average UK driver does a year which are aeriously long haul then simply use the other car or have a hire car delivered just like large numbers of non car owning Londoners do.
But if ignore lawnmatt/techno of whatever as there are deep seated envy issues that the EV is merely serving as a release for.
sisu said:
But the reason Tesla have been so successful in the US is that they have supercharging stations, you never pay for the fuel and the charging stations that they have in the UK are from renewable sourced which sort of pisses on your argument.
This isn't strictly true. The reason the Model S has been successful in the US is because it is an attractive product. If you look at the data which Tesla publish, over 275mn miles have been covered by their cars but only around 15mn miles of range has been provided by superchargers. Hence, a relatively small % of people are taking advantage of the free energy offer / using superchargers.I guess this makes sense. Would you really want to have to go and waste time on a forecourt if you could simply plug your vehicle in at home every evening?
dvs_dave said:
kambites said:
Or not, if their usage is anything like the UK's where every car going electric would require no more power generation capability at all.
Quite. How much electricity is currently consumed by oil refining and distribution? Its a figure that gets overlooked by the luddites when trying to prove how inefficient EV's are
RoverP6B said:
20% is a huge margin. I've never been thrilled by outright raw speed. My interest in cars appreciates more finely nuanced qualities. As for more traction - this thing has torque levels halfway between an RS6 and a Veyron - and have you seen how easily the latter will smoke all four tyres? I would also appreciate not having my neck snapped every time I tried to accelerate.
Perhaps your right foot isn't as 'finely nuanced' as your interest in cars then?Are you really complaining that it is too fast?
It is 4-wheel drive with torque vectoring - the traction will be incredible. Better than just about any car that has ever existed.
Please explain why 'incredibly fast' is too much, but 'incredible traction' is not enough?
DonkeyApple said:
It's political. It's the same in all the EV threads. You get the left wing haters of people more successful than then bhing because you have to have a job and savings to buy one and you get the right wingers bhing about yogurt weavers and the world moving forward.
Obviously they try and his their real issues behind silly stand at finding faults that aren't really relevant like the old 'everyone drives 1000 miles every time they get in a car' etc
EVs are fantastic purely on the grounds that they bring new experiences to driving and the different tech opens the door to new ways to package the automobile. Just look at this car, it wasn't too many years ago that adding AWD meant adding huge weight and taking up a lot of space. We've seen the Haldex kit move the game on dramatically but the EV shows that there is an even better way of doing it.
EVs with fewer mechanical parts are cheaper to run and service. You can already see the comical ideas that servicers are having to resort to to monetise back end EV revenues in the same model as ICE. BMW demand that you bring your EV in to have your dust caps checked. That's how far EVs put them on the back foot.
Ignore the Eco bks. I couldn't car if EVs polluted less or more than ICE. It's the fact that we are experiencing in our lifetime a rapid growth of a new type of car and that is what is exciting.
Once battery tech permits cheaper batteries then that is when the game will really change. Range is a red herring. Stats show that the vast majority of daily car usage is well below even the crappest EV range. Access to charging is also a red herring, vast numbers of people do have driveways. Certainly while EVs are expensive it is a near non issue. But it is when the current batteries can be made and replaced for bugger all that EVs will overnight have such a significant price advantage over ICE as to totally decimate that market. It's always about price and for EVs that is the cost of batteries. Nothing else matters.
WORD!hing because you have to have a job and savings to buy one and you get the right wingers bhing about yogurt weavers and the world moving forward. Obviously they try and his their real issues behind silly stand at finding faults that aren't really relevant like the old 'everyone drives 1000 miles every time they get in a car' etc
EVs are fantastic purely on the grounds that they bring new experiences to driving and the different tech opens the door to new ways to package the automobile. Just look at this car, it wasn't too many years ago that adding AWD meant adding huge weight and taking up a lot of space. We've seen the Haldex kit move the game on dramatically but the EV shows that there is an even better way of doing it.
EVs with fewer mechanical parts are cheaper to run and service. You can already see the comical ideas that servicers are having to resort to to monetise back end EV revenues in the same model as ICE. BMW demand that you bring your EV in to have your dust caps checked. That's how far EVs put them on the back foot.
Ignore the Eco b
ks. I couldn't car if EVs polluted less or more than ICE. It's the fact that we are experiencing in our lifetime a rapid growth of a new type of car and that is what is exciting. Once battery tech permits cheaper batteries then that is when the game will really change. Range is a red herring. Stats show that the vast majority of daily car usage is well below even the crappest EV range. Access to charging is also a red herring, vast numbers of people do have driveways. Certainly while EVs are expensive it is a near non issue. But it is when the current batteries can be made and replaced for bugger all that EVs will overnight have such a significant price advantage over ICE as to totally decimate that market. It's always about price and for EVs that is the cost of batteries. Nothing else matters.
I have started to see a lot of Testla Model S around southern Germany and northern Switzerland. I honestly think that the german auto industry has been caught on the wrong foot with few tricks up their sleeves, most manufacturers having plug-in hybrids planned for release only in the next 3-4 years.
BMW is maybe onto something with their hydrogen fuel-cell partnership with Toyota (Daimler was also heavily involved in such research in the late 90's but has suspiciously dissapeared from the headlines with this tech). The hydrogen story is really a infrastructure problem.
Siemens is far ahead with their pantograph equipped trucks basically electrifying the street freight sector:
http://www.siemens.com/innovation/apps/pof_microsi...
Does anybody have any information about possible side effects of so much electrosmog?
BMW is maybe onto something with their hydrogen fuel-cell partnership with Toyota (Daimler was also heavily involved in such research in the late 90's but has suspiciously dissapeared from the headlines with this tech). The hydrogen story is really a infrastructure problem.
Siemens is far ahead with their pantograph equipped trucks basically electrifying the street freight sector:
http://www.siemens.com/innovation/apps/pof_microsi...
Does anybody have any information about possible side effects of so much electrosmog?
I had a deposit down on a P85+ until recently, I think in a dispassionate analysis they are hugely impressive, and add in the tax breaks for company purchase and they make a lot of sense. I really really wanted to like the Model S. Two things troubled me:
1. The interior is a real let down, not a patch on a German luxobarge or sports car equivalent, the touchscreen is impressive but flawed. Quite a few functions rely upon a dependable 3G mobile signal, which is fine in urban areas but not elsewhere.
2. The lack of engine noise when you put your right foot down is a real issue (for me). The neck snap is very impressive but it all feels a bit cold and clinical. Try watching an HD in-car video of a hot lap at Nurburgring or wherever, then watch it again with the sound off.
The head said yes but the heart said no. Just my personal opinion.
1. The interior is a real let down, not a patch on a German luxobarge or sports car equivalent, the touchscreen is impressive but flawed. Quite a few functions rely upon a dependable 3G mobile signal, which is fine in urban areas but not elsewhere.
2. The lack of engine noise when you put your right foot down is a real issue (for me). The neck snap is very impressive but it all feels a bit cold and clinical. Try watching an HD in-car video of a hot lap at Nurburgring or wherever, then watch it again with the sound off.
The head said yes but the heart said no. Just my personal opinion.
griffchris said:
I had a deposit down on a P85+ until recently, I think in a dispassionate analysis they are hugely impressive, and add in the tax breaks for company purchase and they make a lot of sense. I really really wanted to like the Model S. Two things troubled me:
1. The interior is a real let down, not a patch on a German luxobarge or sports car equivalent, the touchscreen is impressive but flawed. Quite a few functions rely upon a dependable 3G mobile signal, which is fine in urban areas but not elsewhere.
2. The lack of engine noise when you put your right foot down is a real issue (for me). The neck snap is very impressive but it all feels a bit cold and clinical. Try watching an HD in-car video of a hot lap at Nurburgring or wherever, then watch it again with the sound off.
The head said yes but the heart said no. Just my personal opinion.
Yup. I dislike the touchscreen because I believe controls in cars should be tactile. I think having to take your eyes off the road and also hold your hand steady to make in transit changes is actually dangerous. The 3G issue would be a problem for me also as while most cars will be bought and used in the suburban environment and few will be bought by people who live in the middle of nowhere there are 3G black spots in plenty of places and our house outside of London is in one of them. 1. The interior is a real let down, not a patch on a German luxobarge or sports car equivalent, the touchscreen is impressive but flawed. Quite a few functions rely upon a dependable 3G mobile signal, which is fine in urban areas but not elsewhere.
2. The lack of engine noise when you put your right foot down is a real issue (for me). The neck snap is very impressive but it all feels a bit cold and clinical. Try watching an HD in-car video of a hot lap at Nurburgring or wherever, then watch it again with the sound off.
The head said yes but the heart said no. Just my personal opinion.
The lack of noise is definitely a double edged sword. As a utility product it is wonderful to travel in silence and I relish the day when most utility cars are EVs as the impact on suburban noise will be truly startling. You only have to try and make a phone call by a suburban road to appreciate the collective noise of car engines is a real social issue. Plus, wangling down a country lane in silence is quite an exhilarating experience but the one thing an EV can never do is replace that immense pleasure of the noise of a nice petrol engine. But from a bystander perspective, if every dull sounding engine is replaced by a silent EV then we all benefit hugely from being able to hear the nice petrol engines far more clearly.
I'm interested to see the Tesla SUV when it appears as the removal of all the mechanical running gear could give a really flexible and different interior layout than you can achieve with an ICE.
The Model S is quite a handsome looking thing, but the performance stats are not really accurate.
German magazine AMS tested a bunch of electric cars, including the P85+ Model S.
Range at a constant 120km/h decreased from 342km to 184km.
More importantly that headline figure of 310kW is peak power, whilst constant power is rated at only 69kW. The whole powertrain seems to be incredibly warmth-sensitive as after only one 0-100 km/h run the Model S got so warm that it's next 0-100 run was 2 seconds slower.
German magazine AMS tested a bunch of electric cars, including the P85+ Model S.
Range at a constant 120km/h decreased from 342km to 184km.
More importantly that headline figure of 310kW is peak power, whilst constant power is rated at only 69kW. The whole powertrain seems to be incredibly warmth-sensitive as after only one 0-100 km/h run the Model S got so warm that it's next 0-100 run was 2 seconds slower.
FreiWild said:
The Model S is quite a handsome looking thing, but the performance stats are not really accurate.
German magazine AMS tested a bunch of electric cars, including the P85+ Model S.
Range at a constant 120km/h decreased from 342km to 184km.
More importantly that headline figure of 310kW is peak power, whilst constant power is rated at only 69kW. The whole powertrain seems to be incredibly warmth-sensitive as after only one 0-100 km/h run the Model S got so warm that it's next 0-100 run was 2 seconds slower.
Battery pack and inverter temperature issues. I've worked on hybrid system cooling and they are very temperature sensitive to get peak life out of a battery. They will derate the output if it exceeds a pre-defined max so that they don't damage the battery pack (or reduce it's life) and the same goes for the inverter. German magazine AMS tested a bunch of electric cars, including the P85+ Model S.
Range at a constant 120km/h decreased from 342km to 184km.
More importantly that headline figure of 310kW is peak power, whilst constant power is rated at only 69kW. The whole powertrain seems to be incredibly warmth-sensitive as after only one 0-100 km/h run the Model S got so warm that it's next 0-100 run was 2 seconds slower.
IIRC the battery pack needs to be about 35C +/-10C to be optimum. Obviously if you have a 20C ambient, that isn't easy...
FreiWild said:
The Model S is quite a handsome looking thing, but the performance stats are not really accurate.
German magazine AMS tested a bunch of electric cars, including the P85+ Model S.
Range at a constant 120km/h decreased from 342km to 184km.
More importantly that headline figure of 310kW is peak power, whilst constant power is rated at only 69kW. The whole powertrain seems to be incredibly warmth-sensitive as after only one 0-100 km/h run the Model S got so warm that it's next 0-100 run was 2 seconds slower.
All cars headline power is peak. Why would you want peak power when driving say on a motorway. In a steady cruise you want to be using as little power as possible. You only need enough power to overcome air and rolling resistance, so thats all you want to be consuming. You only need to draw/deliver peak power constantly if you're driving a dragster.German magazine AMS tested a bunch of electric cars, including the P85+ Model S.
Range at a constant 120km/h decreased from 342km to 184km.
More importantly that headline figure of 310kW is peak power, whilst constant power is rated at only 69kW. The whole powertrain seems to be incredibly warmth-sensitive as after only one 0-100 km/h run the Model S got so warm that it's next 0-100 run was 2 seconds slower.
Autocar (IIRC) found that the real world range during their testing was about 260miles.
lamboman100 said:
Ugly, unexciting, a pain to recharge, cr*p badge, overpriced.
Ahm oot.
Ugly, surely that is subjective, I think it looks pretty good, certainly no worse than its conventional competition.Ahm oot.
Unexciting, what apart from it being a new dawn in transport and really quick ?
Paint to recharrge, plug it in, er, thats it ?
Crap Badge ? why, because its not german, it isnt like they have had much of a chance to establish a brand over 100 years is it, plus I think a lot of people that the Tesla name now does have some serious kudos.
Overpriced, maybe, but the running costs offset that
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