Really fast cars v bikes?

[T0MMY]

av185 said:

Am not a biker.......but its interesting this perception of cars being less demanding and skillful to pilot in attack mode which imo is questionable.

Coming 'down' to perhaps supercars or rapid sports cars, the 'progression' from 'analogue' drive by the seat of your pants stuff like older Porsche Turbos and GT2s infamously known as the widowmaker to, say the 'digital' Ferrari Speciale with such flattering driving aids as Side Slip contol has to a degree meant car driving skills have been lost in the name of progress. So to truly attack in say a 997 GT2 at warp speeds you would need to be on it big time with a very fine margin between you and the hedge I.e. similar perhaps in many ways to the unquestionable skills required on a bike at the limit.........

At the level of professional racing there is probably an even level of skill required in each discipine as they're wringing out the last couple of percent but as I mentioned before, you only have to go a trackday to see the difference in how well the average enthusiast does.

Basically the difficulties of pushing a car appear a lot later, as in, driving at 90% is quite easy...it just gets harder to get to 95%+. Bikes on the other hand are quite tricky to even go quite fast on. Your average rider is not that happy to lean the bike right over in the first place and if they are, they're not too keen on giving it full throttle whilst it's down there. I know you can't be entirely ham fisted in a car but you have a LOT more leeway and need a lot less confidence. Equally for braking...it's not hard to brake very hard in a car, even without ABS. With bikes, you can feasibly just crash by locking the front wheel or flipping the bike, and most average riders won't even think about braking hard with the bike leant over.

Fundamentally, it's hard to deny the truth of this if you watch average riders on a trackday. As I said before, a lot of guys on superbikes will struggle to get below 2 minutes at Cadwell. That is the sort of time a fairly poorly driven bog standard MX5 will do, let alone an averagely driven supercar.

[sticks090460]

thelawnet said:

I can beat super cars through Chelsea on my pushbike.

Obviously a motorbike is much faster than a car from a to b.

London - Nice? I doubt it.

[H100S]

Mastodon2 said:

As usual, missing the point entirely -it isn't the performance, the cost for that level of performance etc that makes bikes so good, it's bloody fun they are. Car drivers get obsessed about this sort of thing, but I can appreciate it's an easy trap to fall into if you've not had a go on a bike. A car just cannot replicate the feelings you get from a motorcycle - it's amazing how remote high performance cars can feel when you're sitting in a glass and metal bubble. I often hear people talking about Caterhams as being "the closest thing to a bike with 4 wheels", which is perhaps not far wrong, but then again, it's a million miles from a bike.

I'd strongly recommend anyone who has even a glimmer of curiosity about riding a bike to do their CBT. Even when you're on a 125, which are epically slow, you'll string a couple of bends together, leaning and balancing the bike nicely as you go and you'll feel amazing. Most bikers will tell you that the corners are better than the straights and it's true - you can get that cornering buzz on any bike, some are just better than others at it. The ballistic straight-line performance is a bonus, the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. I will admit that the capability to overtake just about anything, using smaller gaps and being able to filter do make things much more pleasant.

Of course, there is the danger element, not everyone is comfortable with the risk and that's fair enough. It's not for everyone. It's worth keeping in mind you're only one mistake away from a life-changing injury, or worse. Loads of people I've talked to have said they're "too mad for a bike, I'd kill myself" or "My wife wouldn't let me", "I don't have any friends who do it" etc, are not fooling anyone, least of all themselves. The one thing almost every biker I've talked to says is "I wish I'd done it sooner".

well said that man. I could not agree more, I really enjoyed the clip. I love the ducati but it was very difficult to get off the line.

[Rincewind209]

Bikes are fun but oh so much less forgiving when the st hits the fan.

[Hasbeen]

Motorrad said:

Baryonyx said:

Ultimately though in the Catherham, you're still sitting in a seat and twiddling a little wheel in front of you, considerably further removed from road than you are on a bike.

Exactly. Anyone comparing 4 wheels to 2 just hasn't got a clue.

Bikes are more visceral, connect you more with the environment and key in all your senses to the experience. Driving a car is like fking wearing a rubber- except you're just watching a porno and using your non-dominant hand . Riding a bike is like going bareback with a porn star.

edit to add: up the wrong 'un

Obviously Motorrad you have never driven a decent car, or perhaps simply lack the ability to do so. The fact that a powerful bike has huge acceleration does not infer any great ability to harness that power.

Perhaps bikes have not got as far into reducing the ability required to use the power with electronics as cars have, fortunately for bike riders, however we have seen that the ability to ride a bike does not translate to ability to drive a car.

We have seen both Wayne Gardiner, & Tracey Stoner, both you will admit I presume fairly good bike riders, fail completely at driving cars, even at the fairly low level of touring cars in our V8 supercars. Surtees was the only bike rider ever to make it in cars, so it is a bit hard to justify any claim to superior ability to ride a bike.

Perhaps car driving is something bike riders in general are not very good at.

[av185]

Sorry but like others I don't accept all this Billy big balls biker bullst....

In the 'real world' of admittedly increasingly rare true driving roads, I will accept that in either of these hypercars, especially with their numerous electronic driver aids, the biker would probably be more connected with the road. But in some ways, you could say that makes it easier to pilot at the limit on the bike......

Also consider if you jump in even a basic elderly Carrera or Ferrari 360, never mind say an older GT2 or Carrera GT all without driver aids, and pilot these kind of cars at the limit on that perfect driving road steering the car on the throttle with full knowledge of the road through perfectly weighted hydraulic pre electric steering in bare feet, shorts, t shirt and windows down, this shirley in many ways brings you closer to the visceral piloting experience than any leather clad crash helmetted visored biker......

[Jasandjules]

Regardless of which is faster etc the bottom line is a car is that much safer on the road or track.

[deltashad]

Dont know why people have to compare two totally different ethos

[sc0tt]

My old R1 would laugh at all your cars

[LooneyTunes]

Baryonyx said:

LooneyTunes said:

Try one of the more powerful R series Caterhams with an aeroscreen and you are arguably less then a million miles from a bike.

Ultimately though in the Catherham, you're still sitting in a seat and twiddling a little wheel in front of you, considerably further removed from road than you are on a bike.

You should try it (with a properly extreme one instead of a Sunday cruiser): you'd be surprised at the connection and, compared to the 125 or any car you've got listed in your garage, I suspect it'd be an eyeopener.

There is something special about shifting your weight around to work with the bike, but a more extreme car involves rather more than rather placidly "twiddling a little wheel". People forget (or are unaware) that there are Caterfields out there with 400bhp+ under the bonnet...

[Motorrad]

Hasbeen said:

Obviously Motorrad you have never driven a decent car, or perhaps simply lack the ability to do so. The fact that a powerful bike has huge acceleration does not infer any great ability to harness that power.

Perhaps bikes have not got as far into reducing the ability required to use the power with electronics as cars have, fortunately for bike riders, however we have seen that the ability to ride a bike does not translate to ability to drive a car.

We have seen both Wayne Gardiner, & Tracey Stoner, both you will admit I presume fairly good bike riders, fail completely at driving cars, even at the fairly low level of touring cars in our V8 supercars. Surtees was the only bike rider ever to make it in cars, so it is a bit hard to justify any claim to superior ability to ride a bike.

Perhaps car driving is something bike riders in general are not very good at.

You don't have to be 'good' at something to get enjoyment out of it.

My point was that I enjoy riding motorcycles much more than driving cars as I find it to be a more visceral and involving experience.

As for your snide comments, stick em up your arse.

[Mastodon2]

LooneyTunes said:

You should try it (with a properly extreme one instead of a Sunday cruiser): you'd be surprised at the connection and, compared to the 125 or any car you've got listed in your garage, I suspect it'd be an eyeopener.

There is something special about shifting your weight around to work with the bike, but a more extreme car involves rather more than rather placidly "twiddling a little wheel". People forget (or are unaware) that there are Caterfields out there with 400bhp+ under the bonnet...

When someone makes a Caterham where the body position of the driver affects the cornering, please let me me know.

[selym]

sc0tt said:

My old R1 would laugh at all your cars

A bike that laughs? Cool.

[dave_s13]

Mastodon2 said:

....
Of course, there is the danger element, not everyone is comfortable with the risk and that's fair enough. It's not for everyone. It's worth keeping in mind you're only one mistake away from a life-changing injury, or worse. Loads of people I've talked to have said they're "too mad for a bike, I'd kill myself" or "My wife wouldn't let me", "I don't have any friends who do it" etc, are not fooling anyone, least of all themselves. The one thing almost every biker I've talked to says is "I wish I'd done it sooner".

Whenever I got on my bike (last one was a Honda blackbird) I always had a niggle in the back of my mind that I could end up injured or dead. I tried to ride safely as I could and did the police bikesafe course and was told by the chap that I was a good, safe rider.

Eventually though I packed it in as I couldn't shake that niggly death feeling. Not worth the risk to me or my family.

Anyway, they are brilliant fun, but only if your state of mind let's you enjoy it.

Edited by dave_s13 on Sunday 12th October 09:08

[GM182]

dave_s13 said:

Whenever I got on my bike (last one was a Honda blackbird) I always had a niggle in the back of my mind that I could end up injured or dead. I tried to ride safely as I could and did the police bikesafe course and was told by the chap that I was a good, safe rider.

Eventually though I packed it in as I couldn't shake that niggly death feeling. Not worth the risk to me or my family.

Anyway, they are brilliant fun, but only if your state of mind let's you enjoy it.

I have that same feeling sometimes and I realised that you just have to accept that there is a small chance you will be killed or seriously injured through no fault of your own.
I was also told the same thing on a Bikesafe course and I think the risk is relatively low but still high compared to most normal daily activities.

For me it is worth it as the sense of freedom you get on a bike is hard to match with anything else. On a summer day riding briskly but not balls out, stringing some bends together, sometimes slowing to enjoy the view, not sure where you're going to end up is what I love about riding. Plus the companionship, mechanical interest and occasional surge of adrenaline...

[T0MMY]

sc0tt said:

My old R1 would laugh at all your cars

Maybe in a straight line but I doubt you'd keep up with mine through a series of corners Or rather, if you did I'd be hugely impressed.

Hasbeen said:

Perhaps car driving is something bike riders in general are not very good at.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. When you mention bike racers that have failed completely in car racing do you mean they are literally as slow as Joe Public non-enthusiast would be or just that they can't compete at the absolute top level? I suspect any top motoGP rider would be very competent in a car just as any F1 driver would be very competent if he learned to ride bikes. That's not to say you would be world class at both as there are obviously differences but in general if you've got the feel for one you'll have the feel for the other (but then also need experience!). I'd say I'm equally competent (or incompetent) at both and there are a LOT of similarities in the skills you need. That feel for how much grip you have at each wheel, how early/hard you can accelerate off a turn or how hard/far you can brake into a corner is identical as well as things like balancing the weight distribution front to back and transitioning smoothly etc. In fact I'd go so far as to say the similarities far outweigh the differences (mainly using your body position on a bike but that's quickly learned).

[wolfracesonic]

dave_s13 said:

Whenever I got on my bike (last one was a Honda blackbird) I always had a niggle in the back of my mind that I could end up injured or dead. I tried to ride safely as I could and did the police bikesafe course and was told by the chap that I was a good, safe rider.

Eventually though I packed it in as I couldn't shake that niggly death feeling. Not worth the risk to me or my family.

Anyway, they are brilliant fun, but only if your state of mind let's you enjoy it.

Edited by dave_s13 on Sunday 12th October 09:08

'That niggly death feeling'. Liked that!

[anonymous-user]

I don't know why they chose a 65k Ducati when an S1000r BMW or ZZR would have probably done a better job? For 15k you can buy a ZZR, drop it in to BIGCC for a turbo and end up with a 450hp, 250mph bike. The cars wouldn't even come close.

[AsyouWere]

^ This man speaketh the truth.

But honestly i bet a few on here haven't ridden a moderatley quick bike on the road.

I used to ride a lot of motorcross / enduro when i was younger but recently just bought an old measley r6. First time out just blew me away and i was giggling all the way home, i enjoyed it so much i was doing my commute 180 miles a day on the thing.

It did get tiresome due to typical english weather and constant numptys on the road but on a nice clear day i would pick the keys to the bike every time. ( My other commuter was an M3 )

[RobM77]

In response to the OP, that's a drag race, which a motorbike will usually win due to their normally superior power to weight ratio.

Has anyone seen the recent series of videos by Evo magazine on this topic? We've all seen superbike vs supercar far too many times, but Evo do different genres of car and bike, which is fascinating:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya3x4-NUAmg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ1pKoFNoZI