Really fast cars v bikes?
Discussion
delboy735 said:
That was posted at the beginning of the thread, non?A couple of other good comparisons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_ttKSUYhps
...and my favourite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPmHhswbk_g
...and my favourite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPmHhswbk_g
MC Bodge said:
delboy735 said:
That was posted at the beginning of the thread, non?
Raize said:
Cars corner and brake better. Makes all the difference on real roads.
Only when there's little or no traffic. Bikes have so many more overtaking opportunities than even very fast cars. When the road is clear, cars lost on the straights, but can brake much later and hold more speed through the bends. It can make it interesting when you are driving a really good road at the same time as a few bikes. Coming into this rather late but I have to say I have read this thread with a lot of interest…
I am foremost a car guy but the last few years it’s been all about bikes. I am fairly handy at peddling a car (in my most humble keyboard strokes), however the level of skill it takes to pilot a motorcycle at speed is a skill and talent that would boggle the mind of a mere ‘driver’!
I am sure the Chris Harris is consider a reasonable driver, however ask him about stepping it up on two wheels and I am sure he’d confirm the talent levels are on the other end of the scale.
Body weight, body position, bike pitch, trail braking, lean angle, counter steering input and positive throttle control are skills that require experience and a degree of talent.
If you don’t believe or cannot understand then you need to try it. I am not talking about riding at an Harley pace or plodding 125 commuter, I am talking about when you’re on it!
Be warned bikes are like cocaine… its an addictive habit.
I must admit riding my Fireblade on the road is not a lot less rewarding the riding on the track and is fraught with more danger. Riding fast on the road doesn’t do it for me anymore…
I am foremost a car guy but the last few years it’s been all about bikes. I am fairly handy at peddling a car (in my most humble keyboard strokes), however the level of skill it takes to pilot a motorcycle at speed is a skill and talent that would boggle the mind of a mere ‘driver’!
I am sure the Chris Harris is consider a reasonable driver, however ask him about stepping it up on two wheels and I am sure he’d confirm the talent levels are on the other end of the scale.
Body weight, body position, bike pitch, trail braking, lean angle, counter steering input and positive throttle control are skills that require experience and a degree of talent.
If you don’t believe or cannot understand then you need to try it. I am not talking about riding at an Harley pace or plodding 125 commuter, I am talking about when you’re on it!
Be warned bikes are like cocaine… its an addictive habit.
I must admit riding my Fireblade on the road is not a lot less rewarding the riding on the track and is fraught with more danger. Riding fast on the road doesn’t do it for me anymore…
Both require a huge amount of skill to do well and I think it's rather naive to claim that one is harder than the other. Some racers have successfully crossed over between the two, but not many. I don't think you could take a top competitor from either discipline and expect them to do well in the other straight away - they're both different sports and both require commitment to learn. Chris Harris found learning to ride a motorbike hard, but if you took his opposite number in bike testing and asked them to race a 911 at the ring, as Chris has, then they'd be equally as lost. I think the differences between good and bad are more obvious on a bike, especially at a low to medium skill level, but that doesn't mean to say there aren't similar aspects to driving a car quickly. It's a bit like someone who sails and windsurfs recreationally claiming that windsurfing is harder because they find it harder with the balance etc - to do either at the top level is so far beyond that level of a casual partaker in the sport that those basic differences are all but irrelevant. I would suggest that that analogy applies directly to bikes and cars, so getting to grips with the basics is no doubt harder on a bike, and that may extend all the way up to a medium skill level, but at the level of international competition I'd propose that those differences in the basics are irrelevant.
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 15th October 12:04
mikal83 said:
Most bike riders can and do drive cars.
Most car drivers cannot and do not ride bikes.
Yes, and I would suggest that a competent, aware biker is, in many cases, a far more competent, aware driver than the vast majority.Most car drivers cannot and do not ride bikes.
At the top level, the best are the best, but I suspect that I could get closer to 'the best' in a (non-aero-winged) car than I could on a WSB.
A different angle - and it's not worth its own thread so I'll ask it here.
Does anyone have an enthusiasm for a car or a bike because of the mechanics of the machine being part of the attraction?
Personally I find cars fascinating due to their relative complexity. Even if I'm a long way from the top tier of drivers, I get a lot of pleasure from driving and thinking about all the myriad of mechanical parts working together in all of the various circumstances one encounters driving along.
By contrast, a bike to me looks like a fork, a frame and a swing arm. As a mechanical machine it doesn't interest me in the slightest, and as such I have no interest in riding one - especially because I lack the invincibility cortex of the brain that I'd need to push a bike as hard as many in this thread claim is required to get the thrill out of them. I'd just be riding along, slowly, wearing hi-viz clothing on a machine that I found about as intriguing as a washing machine's belt driven drum mechanism.
Does anyone have an enthusiasm for a car or a bike because of the mechanics of the machine being part of the attraction?
Personally I find cars fascinating due to their relative complexity. Even if I'm a long way from the top tier of drivers, I get a lot of pleasure from driving and thinking about all the myriad of mechanical parts working together in all of the various circumstances one encounters driving along.
By contrast, a bike to me looks like a fork, a frame and a swing arm. As a mechanical machine it doesn't interest me in the slightest, and as such I have no interest in riding one - especially because I lack the invincibility cortex of the brain that I'd need to push a bike as hard as many in this thread claim is required to get the thrill out of them. I'd just be riding along, slowly, wearing hi-viz clothing on a machine that I found about as intriguing as a washing machine's belt driven drum mechanism.
jamieduff1981 said:
A different angle - and it's not worth its own thread so I'll ask it here.
Does anyone have an enthusiasm for a car or a bike because of the mechanics of the machine being part of the attraction?
Personally I find cars fascinating due to their relative complexity. Even if I'm a long way from the top tier of drivers, I get a lot of pleasure from driving and thinking about all the myriad of mechanical parts working together in all of the various circumstances one encounters driving along.
By contrast, a bike to me looks like a fork, a frame and a swing arm. As a mechanical machine it doesn't interest me in the slightest, and as such I have no interest in riding one - especially because I lack the invincibility cortex of the brain that I'd need to push a bike as hard as many in this thread claim is required to get the thrill out of them. I'd just be riding along, slowly, wearing hi-viz clothing on a machine that I found about as intriguing as a washing machine's belt driven drum mechanism.
So you don't find it fascinating that a bike engine might rev to 15k rpm yet only need servicing every 8k miles, do 45+ mpg, and launch its passenger to 100 mph in less than 6 seconds, while costing about the same to buy as a Hyundai i10?Does anyone have an enthusiasm for a car or a bike because of the mechanics of the machine being part of the attraction?
Personally I find cars fascinating due to their relative complexity. Even if I'm a long way from the top tier of drivers, I get a lot of pleasure from driving and thinking about all the myriad of mechanical parts working together in all of the various circumstances one encounters driving along.
By contrast, a bike to me looks like a fork, a frame and a swing arm. As a mechanical machine it doesn't interest me in the slightest, and as such I have no interest in riding one - especially because I lack the invincibility cortex of the brain that I'd need to push a bike as hard as many in this thread claim is required to get the thrill out of them. I'd just be riding along, slowly, wearing hi-viz clothing on a machine that I found about as intriguing as a washing machine's belt driven drum mechanism.
The amazing engineering is one of the main things that attracts me to bikes vs cars!
Oh and when it comes to pushing a bike to get a thrill, the feeling of riding a bike slowly is still absolutely great. It's different. In the same way that driving a car on a sunny day slowly with the window down is nice, but different to thrashing about.
Edited by dapearson on Wednesday 15th October 12:53
dapearson said:
jamieduff1981 said:
A different angle - and it's not worth its own thread so I'll ask it here.
Does anyone have an enthusiasm for a car or a bike because of the mechanics of the machine being part of the attraction?
Personally I find cars fascinating due to their relative complexity. Even if I'm a long way from the top tier of drivers, I get a lot of pleasure from driving and thinking about all the myriad of mechanical parts working together in all of the various circumstances one encounters driving along.
By contrast, a bike to me looks like a fork, a frame and a swing arm. As a mechanical machine it doesn't interest me in the slightest, and as such I have no interest in riding one - especially because I lack the invincibility cortex of the brain that I'd need to push a bike as hard as many in this thread claim is required to get the thrill out of them. I'd just be riding along, slowly, wearing hi-viz clothing on a machine that I found about as intriguing as a washing machine's belt driven drum mechanism.
So you don't find it fascinating that a bike engine might rev to 15k rpm yet only need servicing every 8k miles, do 45+ mpg, and launch its passenger to 100 mph in less than 6 seconds, while costing about the same to buy as a Hyundai i10?Does anyone have an enthusiasm for a car or a bike because of the mechanics of the machine being part of the attraction?
Personally I find cars fascinating due to their relative complexity. Even if I'm a long way from the top tier of drivers, I get a lot of pleasure from driving and thinking about all the myriad of mechanical parts working together in all of the various circumstances one encounters driving along.
By contrast, a bike to me looks like a fork, a frame and a swing arm. As a mechanical machine it doesn't interest me in the slightest, and as such I have no interest in riding one - especially because I lack the invincibility cortex of the brain that I'd need to push a bike as hard as many in this thread claim is required to get the thrill out of them. I'd just be riding along, slowly, wearing hi-viz clothing on a machine that I found about as intriguing as a washing machine's belt driven drum mechanism.
All I'm saying is that there is much more depth to the machine in a car.
RobM77 said:
Both require a huge amount of skill to do well and I think it's rather naive to claim that one is harder than the other. Some racers have successfully crossed over between the two, but not many. I don't think you could take a top competitor from either discipline and expect them to do well in the other straight away - they're both different sports and both require commitment to learn. Chris Harris found learning to ride a motorbike hard, but if you took his opposite number in bike testing and asked them to race a 911 at the ring, as Chris has, then they'd be equally as lost. I think the differences between good and bad are more obvious on a bike, especially at a low to medium skill level, but that doesn't mean to say there aren't similar aspects to driving a car quickly. It's a bit like someone who sails and windsurfs recreationally claiming that windsurfing is harder because they find it harder with the balance etc - to do either at the top level is so far beyond that level of a casual partaker in the sport that those basic differences are all but irrelevant. I would suggest that that analogy applies directly to bikes and cars, so getting to grips with the basics is no doubt harder on a bike, and that may extend all the way up to a medium skill level, but at the level of international competition I'd propose that those differences in the basics are irrelevant.
I half agree but will say that it takes more commitment and dare I say it larger balls to race motorcycles. The 'basics' on a bike can all go out of the window when you race them and have to deal with front and rear grip, managing it all with a much smaller contact patch and your body is so much more intense than behind the wheel of a car. Not even a Caterham comes close to the feel you get and how instant a bike reacts to small inputs. The feedback is sometimes really physical, to the point it can knock the wind out of you i.e the violence of a saved highside or full on tank slapper, I have never had this in any car, the gyroscopic forces involved just don't conspire against you wanting to turn something as they do on a bike. My favorite feeling is a bike digging in out of an apex and feeling it squat and just gently (or not) oscillate, trusting the front not to fold is another, it's never going to be an issue with a car. I think a good level bike racer will adapt far quicker than say a BTCC driver will to a BSB level bike, he'd be off on his backside IMO. Look at some of the testing that Rossi has done, he is not the only one by any measure, Stonor had a bit of a go and was 'ok' and let's not forget Mike Hailwood, Schumacher?Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 15th October 12:04
It is a different discipline. You know in a car, in the wet you are going to slide but you always (i have) find this level of comfort knowing you are inside a cage or whatever and having these 4 bits of rubber mostly underneath you. You can explore grip in relative safety. Nothing can mess with your mind more than a wet race on good wets on a highly strung motorcycle, as I said commitment. Unfortunately the biggest buzz carries the biggest risk.
yonex said:
I half agree but will say that it takes more commitment and dare I say it larger balls to race motorcycles. The 'basics' on a bike can all go out of the window when you race them and have to deal with front and rear grip, managing it all with a much smaller contact patch and your body is so much more intense than behind the wheel of a car. Not even a Caterham comes close to the feel you get and how instant a bike reacts to small inputs. The feedback is sometimes really physical, to the point it can knock the wind out of you i.e the violence of a saved highside or full on tank slapper, I have never had this in any car, the gyroscopic forces involved just don't conspire against you wanting to turn something as they do on a bike. My favorite feeling is a bike digging in out of an apex and feeling it squat and just gently (or not) oscillate, trusting the front not to fold is another, it's never going to be an issue with a car. I think a good level bike racer will adapt far quicker than say a BTCC driver will to a BSB level bike, he'd be off on his backside IMO. Look at some of the testing that Rossi has done, he is not the only one by any measure, Stonor had a bit of a go and was 'ok' and let's not forget Mike Hailwood, Schumacher?
It is a different discipline. You know in a car, in the wet you are going to slide but you always (i have) find this level of comfort knowing you are inside a cage or whatever and having these 4 bits of rubber mostly underneath you. You can explore grip in relative safety. Nothing can mess with your mind more than a wet race on good wets on a highly strung motorcycle, as I said commitment. Unfortunately the biggest buzz carries the biggest risk.
I have raced caterhams on/off for about 10 yrs with a fair bit of success. I have had probably 3 or 4 spins/offs in that time and no serious car damage. Never hit a barrier. Only been in the gravel twice.It is a different discipline. You know in a car, in the wet you are going to slide but you always (i have) find this level of comfort knowing you are inside a cage or whatever and having these 4 bits of rubber mostly underneath you. You can explore grip in relative safety. Nothing can mess with your mind more than a wet race on good wets on a highly strung motorcycle, as I said commitment. Unfortunately the biggest buzz carries the biggest risk.
I have ridden bikes on the road for a little longer. Normally 10k-20k miles per year and up until this year ridden in all weathers.
My first track outing on a bike last month and i binned it after about 25 mins...
jamieduff1981 said:
To be honest, not really because that's school-level physics of power to weight ratios. I used to waste a lot of time playing with r/c models. The little single cylinder 2-strokes and 4 strokes rev higher than motorbikes and also are not as attractive as a V12. I suppose it's something you might get more in to if you can get in to it in the first place. I see a motorbike as being a push bike with an r/c model engine attached. The fact it costs the same as a Hyundai i10 is because you have bought a simpler collection of moving parts than you'd get on a car.
All I'm saying is that there is much more depth to the machine in a car.
And that is the attraction of a bike (to me). As a piece of engineering this....All I'm saying is that there is much more depth to the machine in a car.
...is the purest form of an engine housed in 'enough' frame, wheels and electronics. Totally fit for purpose, nothing else needed. Cars are ugly over complex things with ugly great lumps of casting and little finesse. I see less 'fun' in road things but feel that more of the DNA survives in a bike than car.
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