RE: Toyota GT86 facelift details

RE: Toyota GT86 facelift details

Author
Discussion

chrispmartha

15,361 posts

128 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
W124 said:
I'm a bit lost. Generally it has to be said, not just on this subject. But I despair. Do posters actually spend time racing cars on public roads? Somebody argued that the Megane RS would "slaughter" the Toyota. Well up to a point, maybe and on a track probably but then it's got sodding huge tyres on it. You know I hate to be a bellend but I'm just going to have to be. I've briefly driven the 265 Cup, the Golf R, the S3 and the m135i on the same circuit and I can say, without any doubt, two things. If you drive those cars on the limit, on a public road then you are an idiot and, secondly, I'd have a GT-86 over any of them without a moments thought. If you think a GT-86 is slow, then you cannot drive.
I agree with you to a point, I just think the wider discussion of why a car like the GT-86 isn't selling very well is quite interesting, and I would suggest one of the reasons is that for the same money you can get a whole host of 'faster' cars and that will appeal to a lot of people whether or not the need or indeed use the power.

The Gt-86 is not slow, its just slower than a lot of cars occupying that same price bracket, and with it being a 'sports' car I think people (as in people who are buying) would expect more power.

chrispmartha

15,361 posts

128 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Also just to add, its often touted on here that a Porsche Cayman is underpowered, so its not just targeted at the GT-86.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
The Calibra was pretty much the opposite of the GT86, in the sense that most of the USP of the Toyota comes from it having been engineered differently to the cars which are spun off saloon / hatch platforms. The Calibra route gives you lots of flash for not much cash, the GT86 route gives you a less compromised drive but not at a bargain price.

danp

1,603 posts

261 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Will the new mx5 get similar comments do you think?

Sounds like it will start at circa 1050kg/130bhp/20k as opposed to 1250kg/200bhp/22k.

chrispmartha

15,361 posts

128 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
danp said:
Will the new mx5 get similar comments do you think?

Sounds like it will start at circa 1050kg/130bhp/20k as opposed to 1250kg/200bhp/22k.
Dunno, I'm not sure they are targeted at the same buyer though.

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
danp said:
Will the new mx5 get similar comments do you think?

Sounds like it will start at circa 1050kg/130bhp/20k as opposed to 1250kg/200bhp/22k.
I have a simple test for all these douche bags who call cars like this "too slow". Ask them what they drive and how often they are at WOT at 500 revs below redline. I expect that most people who "need" 300bhp almost never use even 200bhp. It is quite rare to get an opportunity to extend a car on our roads (and even then only in 2nd gear).

I think the most fun to be had in this country would be - RWD, short intermediate gears (say 50mph in 2nd and 80 in 3rd), about 1200kg and about 200bhp (at 7,000 rpm).

liner33

10,642 posts

201 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
ORD said:
I have a simple test for all these douche bags who call cars like this "too slow". Ask them what they drive and how often they are at WOT at 500 revs below redline. I expect that most people who "need" 300bhp almost never use even 200bhp. It is quite rare to get an opportunity to extend a car on our roads (and even then only in 2nd gear).

I think the most fun to be had in this country would be - RWD, short intermediate gears (say 50mph in 2nd and 80 in 3rd), about 1200kg and about 200bhp (at 7,000 rpm).
Not everyone wants to drive at 6500rpm all the time

I really like the 86, I drove one with the view to buying one but in normal driving conditions it feels a bit slow , you do feel the need to spank it a bit to get it to go , it felt not only down on power but more importantly down on torque , I know some people like that but it wasnt for me so I bought a 370z , I dont drive it to the red line but then to make rapid progress I dont need to because at 4000rpm i'm already making more power than the 86 does at 7000rpm .

If I drove on track a lot I know the 86 would be more fun but I simply dont.

bobbylondonuk

2,197 posts

189 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
http://toyotanews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/se...

25k units sold in USA in 1.5yrs



http://media.toyota.co.uk/wp-content/files_mf/1412...

4k units sold in 2.5 yrs in the uk.



not exactly running the factory at full capacity, but not bad either in a market full of Audi TT and Merc SLK buyers.

W124

1,497 posts

137 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
chrispmartha said:
I agree with you to a point, I just think the wider discussion of why a car like the GT-86 isn't selling very well is quite interesting, and I would suggest one of the reasons is that for the same money you can get a whole host of 'faster' cars and that will appeal to a lot of people whether or not the need or indeed use the power.

The Gt-86 is not slow, its just slower than a lot of cars occupying that same price bracket, and with it being a 'sports' car I think people (as in people who are buying) would expect more power.
It wasn't aimed at you, that one. Apologies if it seemed so. I daresay the main reason why it's not selling is it's monthly cost. I sort of see it as occupying the top of the bracket below. Where the Fiesta RS and Clio are - it sort of sits in between them and the golf GTI and Megane. The 135i, S3 and Golf R cost loads more. They are not competitors unless you look at the monthly drip - that's the problem for Toyota. Especially as they are trying to claw back money on a bespoke car.

The wider UK market is odd as you say. It's mostly trying to get the most speed, power and prestige you can for the lowest monthly outlay. Fair enough I suppose but it's odd that even Clarkson's primetime eulogy to this car could not give it the market credibility it deserves. I just cannot praise the drive enough myself. I cannot comprehend choosing any kind of mainstream hatch over one. It does make me laugh though - I know how fast the Megane RS265 can really go. I mean, really, if you properly belt it. I wouldn't dare drive like that on a public road, even in Northern Scotland I'd be wary.

Fire99

9,844 posts

228 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Personally there is another issue which interestingly moves away from the 'flat out' performance issue. Flexibility.
So it's taken that the GT86 isn't meant for record breaking headline figures so you would hope it makes up for it with a good spread of power lower down.
When you consider it has around the same Torque as an old Clio 172 (not the last word in spread of power) but is 25% heavier, it's not a surprise that it feels flat to some, in day to day driving.

But on the flip side, its comparable (book figures being accurate) with the more powerful but heavier Mazda RX8..
Then I have read that some say the GT86 isn't making its quoted power, so it's a tough call..

Fastdruid

8,623 posts

151 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Fire99 said:
But on the flip side, its comparable (book figures being accurate) with the more powerful but heavier Mazda RX8..
Which is much quicker and a lot more practical with 4 doors and can seat 4 adults.

It's near as dammit the same 0-60 time as my Mondeo Estate ffs (7.4 against 7.5) and no sports car should be able to be beaten in the TL GP by an Estate the size of a small country. smile

I really like the idea of the GT86 but it needs to be more practical and faster to be a realistic prospect for us or ridiculously cheap to run. I'd put up with it being a bit slow if for example it could do 55mpg avg (even if it was pants when caning it) and cost £30 VED

rob.e

2,861 posts

277 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Robert Elise said:
I have a question for people:
is an Elan a true sports car?

I propose splitting PH in two. you join one side depending on answer given.
The elan is probably one of the finest sports cars ever made but IIRC it weights about 600kg? The toyota is almost double that figure unfortunately which is why it feels slow.

TBH all the "needs more power" types probably really mean "nees more torque". 151 lb/f is a very low output and about half what you get in the average diesel company car these days. Yes you can have fun in the twisties but it sort of defeats the point if you get smoked by a diesel golf on the straights.


Fensport, Abbey Motorsport - they'll all give you a powerful 86 BUT that adds ££ to an already expensive package.

At 250bhp and/or sub-20k i think they'd be selling lots. See usa sales figures..



Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Stokemon said:
I blame Clarkson. Years of shouting POWEERRRR at prime-time on a Sunday has made everyone think that it needs more power.
Yet despite that he called it his car of the year, on release.

Alex

9,975 posts

283 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
rob.e said:
TBH all the "needs more power" types probably really mean "nees more torque". 151 lb/f is a very low output and about half what you get in the average diesel company car these days. Yes you can have fun in the twisties but it sort of defeats the point if you get smoked by a diesel golf on the straights.
Why? Just let the boring diesel company car driver go.

Conscript

1,378 posts

120 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Alex said:
rob.e said:
TBH all the "needs more power" types probably really mean "nees more torque". 151 lb/f is a very low output and about half what you get in the average diesel company car these days. Yes you can have fun in the twisties but it sort of defeats the point if you get smoked by a diesel golf on the straights.
Why? Just let the boring diesel company car driver go.
Indeed. It only defeats the point if the point was to out perform other cars. Not something I'm interested in, so I don't care if I get smoked, quite literally, by a diesel hatchback.

Neezer

391 posts

227 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
danp said:
Neezer said:
Well I can certainly understand the 'x-factor' in cars, and I do love the concept of the BRZ/Gt86, however do you really think that on the daily commute stuck in a line of cars travelling at 50mph down the same old overcrowded A road on a drizzly November morning the gt86 is going to be a demonstrably more exciting experience than any other that hatch/sports car of its ilk?
Odd argument, what comparable car would you have for that? TT for it's lovely tft dash?
Well comparing it with other cars of a similar ilk, and I'm going to have to include hot hatches here, I'd probably be in something like either a Golf GTi or perhaps even a BMW 125d -which I guess while clearly not as playful is certainly a great deal more practical from a fuel consumption point of view on longer journeys. The simple reason is that you get 80% of the fun but with better practicalities and perceived value. The emphasis on perceived as the gt86 clearly doesn't stack up in any technical way way compared with the closest thing to it's direct rivals. Not that there really is a 'direct' rival to the BRZ/86 to be fair.

Like others have pointed out already, I was hoping that the gt86 was going to be basically an Mx5 coupe that was 2+2 for the added practicality but with a similar price point. Unfortunately I was disappointed in the last regard, which is why there isn't one on my driveway right now..

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Not sure about 80% of the fun - I have no desire to own any hot hatch of any sort. Been there, done that, got bored.

rob.e

2,861 posts

277 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Conscript said:
Alex said:
rob.e said:
TBH all the "needs more power" types probably really mean "nees more torque". 151 lb/f is a very low output and about half what you get in the average diesel company car these days. Yes you can have fun in the twisties but it sort of defeats the point if you get smoked by a diesel golf on the straights.
Why? Just let the boring diesel company car driver go.
Indeed. It only defeats the point if the point was to out perform other cars. Not something I'm interested in, so I don't care if I get smoked, quite literally, by a diesel hatchback.
Used to frustrate the hell out of me when i have my 120bhp elise. Awesome in the twisties but not much straight line performance, so a similar proposition to the 86. You'd get stuck behind some diesel dirt wagen with not enough grunt to overtake when the road was straight. Get to the twisties and you'd have to do them at a snails pace following the car in front.

A car that is great to drive but has minimal straight line is only fun when you have the road to yourself, which is very rare in the uk..

rob.e

2,861 posts

277 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
otolith said:
A new sushi restaurant opens on PH street. Some people like sushi, and since there hasn't been a similar restaurant on PH street for some time are very happy to have the option. Others don't like it, shrug, go and eat somewhere else. A vocal minority get very annoyed. "Why doesn't it have curry sauce on it?", they demand. "It would be much better with curry sauce", they opine. "I would still go and eat at one of the many Indian restaurants instead, but I would sleep better if the sushi restaurant was serving curry". "Also", they add, "Why is it so much more expensive than a filet-o-fish from McDonalds? Most people can't tell the difference. I personally once ate some deep fried cardboard and found it perfectly acceptable. Unless you are some hoity-toity expert restaurant critic you won't be able to tell reformed white fish in batter from raw tuna."
Nice, but tbh i think is more like:

Fish and Chip restaurant opens but does not allow customers to have ketchup.

PH: "you do know that you'd probably sell more if you had ketchup"

F&C chaps say "its all about the purity of the taste, ketchup would ruin it dontcha know"

PH: "fair enough". shrugs shoulders. buys something else (see uk sales figures).

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
rob.e said:
Nice, but tbh i think is more like:

Fish and Chip restaurant opens but does not allow customers to have ketchup.

PH: "you do know that you'd probably sell more if you had ketchup"

F&C chaps say "its all about the purity of the taste, ketchup would ruin it dontcha know"

PH: "fair enough". shrugs shoulders. buys something else (see uk sales figures).
Nah. Ketchup is pretty much free. Extra power is very expensive - (1) bigger engines are heavier, (2) faster cars need bigger brakes and tyres, again adding weight, (3) heavier cars need more power.

I imagine that the GT86 hits a carefully designed sweet spot. More power and it would get heavier and so need more power, making it become more and more like the cars that it does not want to be.