RE: Toyota GT86 facelift details

RE: Toyota GT86 facelift details

Author
Discussion

Alex

9,975 posts

283 months

Monday 20th October 2014
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rob.e said:
A car that is great to drive but has minimal straight line is only fun when you have the road to yourself, which is very rare in the uk..
That is a very valid point.

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Monday 20th October 2014
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rob.e said:
A car that is great to drive but has minimal straight line is only fun when you have the road to yourself, which is very rare in the uk..
That sounds like an argument against being able to have fun in pretty much any vehicle with the width and low driving position of a car.

Unfortunately, Overtaking opportunities are limited, even in a fairly fast one, in comparison with a mid-powered motorbike.

Just because many saloon cars are now fairly fast, it doesn't make all of those cars "slow", though.

Should every "sports car" be faster than an RS6 or 335d estate in a drag race?

Does the Top Gear Power Lap have much relevance?

Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 20th October 16:17

Robert Elise

956 posts

144 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Alex said:
rob.e said:
A car that is great to drive but has minimal straight line is only fun when you have the road to yourself, which is very rare in the uk..
That is a very valid point.
it is a valid point. but busy roads aren't fun in any car. sooooo... i suggest an '86 is appropriate either for someone who does have enough free roads to enjoy or for someone who goes out of their way to find free roads. If your daily schlep involves traffic & mway then an auto barge is ideal, with a w/end toy perhaps. The car still meets its design spec tho, just that many people don't want that spec. A hot hatch is good at providing fun on today's busy roads, but it is not a pure driving experience at all. The debate will rage on many fronts and i'm sure we'll never all agree.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Monday 20th October 2014
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I'd argue that it's much easier to have fun in a relatively slow, low-grip car on busy roads than a fast, high-grip one.

Conscript

1,378 posts

120 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
Alex said:
rob.e said:
A car that is great to drive but has minimal straight line is only fun when you have the road to yourself, which is very rare in the uk..
That is a very valid point.
Don't get me wrong, there are times when I feel like it could do with some more torque - the thing is, the amount of times I find myself frustrated by a lack of torque are far outweighed by the amount of times I find myself really enjoying the drive, even with other traffic on the road. As above, I'm one of the drivers who will head out of his way looking for free roads.

I completely take your point though, and I do understand why the car isn't for some. It just bugs me that people get so vehement about demanding more power from the car and claiming that's what it "needs", when in reality, that's just what they "want".

Edited by Conscript on Monday 20th October 16:28

rob.e

2,861 posts

277 months

Monday 20th October 2014
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kambites said:
I'd argue that it's much easier to have fun in a relatively slow, low-grip car on busy roads than a fast, high-grip one.
Ok, don't disagree..

Entry level caterham on narrow rubber vs. 300bhp wrx sti, yep the caterham would get my vote for fun.

But, if you had a choice, and you had to drive from here to say, the Alps, wouldn't you take a faster caterham?

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Monday 20th October 2014
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The point was more that whenever someone does something different there are people moaning that it isn't like everything else - well buy one of the everything else then, it's not like you're stuck for choice!

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Monday 20th October 2014
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kambites said:
I'd argue that it's much easier to have fun in a relatively slow, low-grip car on busy roads than a fast, high-grip one.
Agreed.

...but much easier to feel superior if you drive a car/bike that has impressive performance figures or turbo shove, whether you can or do use it or not.

Thankfully, very few people actively seek out good driving roads and opportunities, which keeps the A/B roads quieter.

Ps. I see a few GT86s around Manchester/Cheshire.

Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 20th October 17:08

danp

1,603 posts

261 months

Monday 20th October 2014
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Neezer said:
Like others have pointed out already, I was hoping that the gt86 was going to be basically an Mx5 coupe that was 2+2 for the added practicality but with a similar price point. Unfortunately I was disappointed in the last regard, which is why there isn't one on my driveway right now..
Well it's about as close as you'll ever get!

Just had a look, the current 1.8 (126bhp, 1150kg) mx5 starts at 18.5k and the cheapest 2.0 (160bhp, 1250kg) appears to be a roadster coupe at just over 23k - makes the brz/gt86 look excellent value.

ETA: so..what is in your driveway instead? A Land Rover?

Edited by danp on Monday 20th October 18:12

underphil

1,245 posts

209 months

Monday 20th October 2014
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this 'needs more power' to be a good car attitude is ridiculous

The GT86 is has the same kind of power to weight as plenty of sports cars from 20-30 years ago that were considered true sports cars an excellent to be behind the wheel of

Does everyone now think the E30 M3 'is rubbish because it can't keep up with a <insert FWD turbo hatch>' ?

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Monday 20th October 2014
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Kolbenkopp said:
Fire99 said:
Well that may be true but I think I've seen three on the road in total (including the Subaru version) and the facelift / tweaks give the impression of a hint of desperation in selling a few more..
We had that topic last year IIRC, and I wanted to reply by quoting the rather good sales figures for Europe. Well sadly turns out that, in contrast to last year, 2014 has been pretty grim for the twins. German market data: January to September 2014, 663 sales (BRZ and GT86 combined). 65% less than in 2013. Discounts are very average though and no special editions on sale.

Looks like (at least around here), everybody that understands the appeal now has one. Autobild (Germany's Autoexpress) tested both against a 200 hp Scirocco at launch. Review was headlined as "What is more fun to drive?". The VW won of course. Five seconds quicker round the track, safe handling, Autobahn grunt and they criticized that "ESP off" means off with the Japanese twins.

Of course that is *incredibly* stupid. But they are writing to please their audience, so a good indication of what the lemmings want. IMVHO they'd sell a lot more if it had FI levels of torque, at least 250 hp and was tested on stickier tyres. Might spoil the car, but the people aren't getting it. In hindsight they should have launched that type of BRZ first, then added some sort of NA "Clubsport" version similar to the current model (perhaps a bit more basic and lighter).
Bits of this thread remind me of what happened to the old affordable rwd coupes back in the mid/late 80s. It was re-hashes of old cars back then rather than a whole new model but it seems a similar situation



Six years later, people were still buying them in limited numbers, special editions and bodykits had been done but some people just didn't 'get' them or couldn't see the appeal. Russell Bulgin seemed almost pleased at the demise of the Opel but I remember similar stuff re the Capri 2.8 and Corolla GT - then, as now, a cheaper hot hatch could see the coupe off in a straight fight. The coupes were a different sort of drive though back then, as now.



Maybe the facelift might be a bit of a bolster to the sales





I hope they continue to make the GT/BRZ

Edited by s m on Monday 20th October 22:39

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Monday 20th October 2014
quotequote all
underphil said:
this 'needs more power' to be a good car attitude is ridiculous

The GT86 is has the same kind of power to weight as plenty of sports cars from 20-30 years ago that were considered true sports cars an excellent to be behind the wheel of

Does everyone now think the E30 M3 'is rubbish because it can't keep up with a <insert FWD turbo hatch>' ?
In my experience, it is rare that power is really a limiting factor in a UK cross-country drive, and 200bhp isn't exactly a small amount anyway, even if the car doesn't have beefy low rpm grunt and requires keeping the revs up to go fast.


I suspect that Joe Public generally wants something that feels grunty without the need to rev an engine hard. About 20 years ago, I remember one of the Rover KV6 engineers mentioning that focus groups preferred the feeling of throttle response and torque to outright power, although power sells. More power must be better, because it is MORE.

Modern turbocharged engines can provide power and low rpm torque, even if not many of them give a good throttle response.

I like to drive enthusiastically and give a car some stick, but I only really discovered what the autobahn performance of my cars was like when I went and drove on the autobahn, for sustained periods above 110mph.

Driving an MGB with well-maintained suspension and tyres is fun, with somewhat (a lot!)less than half the power of a GT86.

Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 20th October 22:15

MadDog1962

890 posts

161 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
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nottyash said:
New Mustang will be where my money would go
Not seen the new Mustang in the metal yet. However, I took a look at a Camaro and a Mustang last year when I bought my GT86 (FR-S). The luggage space in the Mustang and Camaro was about the same as the Toyota/Scion/Subaru, and the interior of both the Camaro and Mustang really was nasty compared to the GT86. They all cost about the same new. I paid the equivalent of £17,500 (that included 8.25% sales tax and a first time registration charge). There's no good reason for Toyota to be charging much more than about £21k for these in the UK.

OK you get a LOT more power with the American cars, even with the V6. However, the handling is what the GT86 is all about. Anybody who's driven a GT86 cannot truly say it's slow. For day to day use and even for hard driving in the wonderful roads in the Texas Hill Country the GT 86 is IMHO magic. It feels fast enough, and on twisty bits it will make you smile.

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
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hora said:
Touota sticking spoilers and skirts on again. Like a Celica.

If I bought one of these it'd be the Subaru version. Full stop.
Interesting when you look at the Celica sales figures in the Toyota sales chart that for any year from 2000-2005 it sold as many annually as the GT86 did in 3 years. Wonder if that was down to pricing or other factors as the engines/performance ( for the top spec Celica ) are similar.
Arrival of the super hatches? Sporty diesels?

RobGT81

5,227 posts

185 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
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rob.e said:
But, if you had a choice, and you had to drive from here to say, the Alps, wouldn't you take a faster caterham?
If they didn't make a faster Caterham, would that stop you having a great time with a 130bhp Seven?

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
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RobGT81 said:
If they didn't make a faster Caterham, would that stop you having a great time with a 130bhp Seven?
Would an uber Caterham be too much and less fun for most people?

matt1269

598 posts

173 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
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iloveboost said:
The GT86/BRZ are the RWD equivalent of a Clio 200
This!

I test drove a GT86 before I bought a clio 200, and really don't understand people saying it's slow.
Ultimately went for the Renault because of the close to £10k price difference.

bwood7878

3 posts

113 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
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I work for Toyota in Oxford. we have had the new gt86 aero in the show room for a week now and i must say its much better than the old GT86 TRD. I do think yes it could do with abit of a power upgrade but the GT86 is a very fun car to drive. they have lacked in doing anything with a performance upgrade in a long time. we do get alot of people looking about for a used toyota for around the the 17k mark but at the moment is is very hard to find stock of used GT86. but soon as we get a used one in it tends to go straight away. alot of people do complain about the power but when they drive it they do like the cars as they are fun to drive. but i do agree they could do with abit more power. whenever i go to head office i do ask them about anything in the pipe line but toyota dont like to give anything away the only thing ive heard in the pipe line is a smaller 4x4 as the rav4 has now gone up in size. but thats it for the moment. in the uk they are mainly pushing hybrid and aygo and yaris as that is what we sell the most of.

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
quotequote all
bwood7878 said:
I work for Toyota in Oxford. we have had the new gt86 aero in the show room for a week now and i must say its much better than the old GT86 TRD. I do think yes it could do with abit of a power upgrade but the GT86 is a very fun car to drive. they have lacked in doing anything with a performance upgrade in a long time. we do get alot of people looking about for a used toyota for around the the 17k mark but at the moment is is very hard to find stock of used GT86. but soon as we get a used one in it tends to go straight away. alot of people do complain about the power but when they drive it they do like the cars as they are fun to drive. but i do agree they could do with abit more power. whenever i go to head office i do ask them about anything in the pipe line but toyota dont like to give anything away the only thing ive heard in the pipe line is a smaller 4x4 as the rav4 has now gone up in size. but thats it for the moment. in the uk they are mainly pushing hybrid and aygo and yaris as that is what we sell the most of.
I suppose the proof of the pudding will be in the sales figures to Sept 2015.
It seems they took quite a tumble in the UK for 2014 compared to the previous 2 years

Steve vRS

4,836 posts

240 months

Tuesday 21st October 2014
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bwood7878 said:
we do get alot of people looking about for a used toyota for around the the 17k mark but at the moment is is very hard to find stock of used GT86. but soon as we get a used one in it tends to go straight away.
Interesting. I would like a second hand one but feel that £17k is too much to pay for a 2 1/2 year old one when you can get a new one for £22k or even less through an internet broker.

Steve