RE: Toyota GT86 facelift details
Discussion
I agree with the comment about supermini hot hatches being cheaper for the same performance. Also the new MX-5 is coming soon so we will see whether we do get the 2.0. It sounds like we won't but if we do that's a good competitor for less cash. It's good that they offer a cheaper model though as some people don't want or like push button start or OTT alloys or the rear spoiler. I'm not keen on the spoiler or the rear lights or push button start.
I don't think that Toyota/Subaru will release a turbo GT86/BRZ they've flatly denied it every time. If Subaru release a turbo flat six though then I think a RWD SVX/Supra final 'concept' is much more likely to be released. If that happens, it's happening.
I don't think that Toyota/Subaru will release a turbo GT86/BRZ they've flatly denied it every time. If Subaru release a turbo flat six though then I think a RWD SVX/Supra final 'concept' is much more likely to be released. If that happens, it's happening.
theJT said:
Olivera said:
I think you'll find it's selling well in the US due to the significantly lower price. See http://www.scion.com/cars/FR-S2014/. It starts at $25,470 or £15,810, even adding on 20% sales tax it is still well under £20k.
In my opinion the bad UK sales are simply due to Toyota UK's catastrophic decision to price it originally at £25k + options (many spending at least £27k). Consequently this placed it in the same market as much higher powered vehicles, which in other regions, such as the US, is simply not the case.
It's a British disease this. Look what the new Mustang costs in the states vs what they're talking about as the price here; it can't all be "shipping costs and regional taxation". It's not just cars, it seems to happen to everything. In my opinion the bad UK sales are simply due to Toyota UK's catastrophic decision to price it originally at £25k + options (many spending at least £27k). Consequently this placed it in the same market as much higher powered vehicles, which in other regions, such as the US, is simply not the case.
zerovira said:
NXXN said:
This @ under 20K
I think they need to pull out some culture with this car. Something stripped out to basics, just stripped, say sound deadening, ac, radio, rear seats, put a cage on it and sell it as a track day beast. Maybe start some racing series.
Neezer said:
The big issue for me was the price for the simple reason that for about 2-3k more I could get an M135i that is faster, more economical, lower tax, more practical and has similar or better residuals. So why would you want a gt86? Maybe its slightly more fun to drive occasionally, but is that really worth all those compromises?
The M135i is as interesting and tactile as a bag of maris pipers. It may beat the GT86 in every measurable way but it's just so dull and detached. The GT86 is involving and fun. If you care about being faster than other people, the car for you is an M135i, Focus ST, Golf GTi or any of the uninspiring MORish cars about. If you care about having more fun than other people, the car for you is the GT86.Until magazines can decide on a unit for measuring fun and a way to present it as some sort of comparitive metric against other vehicles, you'll always get an endless torrent of bellends screaming "NEEDS MORE POWER!" on every forum and in every pub in the land.
Neezer said:
The big issue for me was the price for the simple reason that for about 2-3k more I could get an M135i that is faster, more economical, lower tax, more practical and has similar or better residuals. So why would you want a gt86?
Because, and this might sound snooty, but I didn't want to drive around in a hatchback. The Focus ST/Golf GTi/M135i might all be faster cars and more practical. But, and call me shallow if you wish, but I value looks and aesthetics of my cars greatly. And whereas I thought the GT86 looked fantastic, the cars above did nothing for me, no matter how capable they are. I smile each time I see it, and I always find myself looking back at it as I walk away.Also, I value handling, input, feel and "fun" over outright capability and the GT86 excels in those areas. Even at slow speeds, the balance, noise and feel of the car is superb, making it a fun car to drive day to day. I have absolutely no interest in comparing power figures, nor with competing with anyone else on the road or on the track - I just want to enjoy the car to satisfy myself. As long as I enjoy the drive, I couldn't really care less what car I could of had which would have been faster. Indeed, I've read a few testimonials from people who have said that although the M135i is a much more capable car, they found the GT86 the more fun car to drive, and the fun easier to extract before you're risking your licence.
Also, not entirely convinced of your claim that the M135 is both cheaper for tax and also more economical. I'm pretty sure that at best, the tax is the same, and I'd be interested to hear what sort of economy any M135 drivers are achieving. I average 34-35 in my daily use, which is more than acceptable to me. I'd be happy if someone could correct me, but those claims just don't sound right to me.
Edited by Conscript on Friday 17th October 16:53
Rawwr said:
The M135i is as interesting and tactile as a bag of maris pipers. It may beat the GT86 in every measurable way but it's just so dull and detached. The GT86 is involving and fun. If you care about being faster than other people, the car for you is an M135i, Focus ST, Golf GTi or any of the uninspiring MORish cars about. If you care about having more fun than other people, the car for you is the GT86.
Until magazines can decide on a unit for measuring fun and a way to present it as some sort of comparitive metric against other vehicles, you'll always get an endless torrent of bellends screaming "NEEDS MORE POWER!" on every forum and in every pub in the land.
But this is exactly why it isn't selling well, a lot of people want a 'complete' package so to speak, especially when its your only car. The M135i, Golf R, Audi S3 etc etc give that package of fast but practical and well made.Until magazines can decide on a unit for measuring fun and a way to present it as some sort of comparitive metric against other vehicles, you'll always get an endless torrent of bellends screaming "NEEDS MORE POWER!" on every forum and in every pub in the land.
The GT86 just isn't special enough to be a second car and isn't well made (it feels very cheap and plasticky inside!) and practical enough for an everyday car.
If I want a fun weekend car and had £25K to spend, it wouldn't be on one of these. And if I wanted to spend £25k on a practical fast well sorted everyday car it wouldn't be one of these.
all IMO of course
chrispmartha said:
The GT86 just isn't special enough to be a second car and isn't well made (it feels very cheap and plasticky inside!) and practical enough for an everyday car.
I bought mine precisely because it was practical enough to be an everyday car, whilst being special enough to be a really fun to drive car too!There are varying levels of practicality. About the only way it's not practical is that the rear seats are pretty useless. It's comfortable, comparatively economical, has a fair amount of boot space and enough gadgets to make every day use less tiresome (cruise control, dual climate, sat nav, auto lights, etc). It might not be as practical as a hatchback, but it's not a huge amount less practical than many modern family saloons. Indeed, the rear seats fold flat as standard, giving it one up on some saloons
Some people are citing practicality like the GT86 is little more than a Caterham with a roof and can't be used every day. This is not true. I agree with the sentiment of your point, that people want an all round package which might account for poor sales, but for some of us, the car is the right balance of practicality, cost and fun.
I blame Clarkson. Years of shouting POWEERRRR at prime-time on a Sunday has made everyone think that it needs more power.
My dad owned the car for 2 years. Sold it due to a need for practicality. And we both agree it could do with 2 changes, a little bit more torque (not loads just a little, we live in a hilly area) and to get rid of feeding the exhaust noise into the cabin. It isn't the greatest sound ever, which hearing all the time grinds a bit.
Overall the car is proper fun. Not a German saloon that boasts great on paper performance, but a car that rewards driving and will always put a smile on your face.
If you want a game of top trumps buy a beemer if you'd rather enjoy your local B road you want one of these.
My dad owned the car for 2 years. Sold it due to a need for practicality. And we both agree it could do with 2 changes, a little bit more torque (not loads just a little, we live in a hilly area) and to get rid of feeding the exhaust noise into the cabin. It isn't the greatest sound ever, which hearing all the time grinds a bit.
Overall the car is proper fun. Not a German saloon that boasts great on paper performance, but a car that rewards driving and will always put a smile on your face.
If you want a game of top trumps buy a beemer if you'd rather enjoy your local B road you want one of these.
Denorth said:
peculiar...
Japanese guys built a car by british recipe - RWD, light and with reasonable power and great steering feel.
What Americans (who allegedly go for power, big engine size, big car size and SUV) do? they buy this car in big numbers and having fun driving it.
What Brits (who allegedly know more about steering, use of light weight and cornering) do? They whine a lot, talk about power and continue driving FWD hatches that understeer like barge.
Sometimes I wonder, who actually knows more about having fun and (possibly) about driving. So far those journos that drove it praised it for what it was from the beginning. But seems like general public in UK and so-called pistonheads don't.
What utter tripe people bought the hot hatches that don't have lots of under steer out handle the gt86 and funnily enough have 21st century power levels the gt 86 has failed to be a big seller simply because it's to slow ! maybe if they actually listened to the customer and made it 250 bhp min it would sell like hot cakes, getting blown away by a 1.5 dci is not what you want from a sports car lol maybe ok for the 50 plus brigade but it isn't cutting it for most unfortunately Japanese guys built a car by british recipe - RWD, light and with reasonable power and great steering feel.
What Americans (who allegedly go for power, big engine size, big car size and SUV) do? they buy this car in big numbers and having fun driving it.
What Brits (who allegedly know more about steering, use of light weight and cornering) do? They whine a lot, talk about power and continue driving FWD hatches that understeer like barge.
Sometimes I wonder, who actually knows more about having fun and (possibly) about driving. So far those journos that drove it praised it for what it was from the beginning. But seems like general public in UK and so-called pistonheads don't.
Shame as its not a bad looker bar the lexarse rear lights
Conscript said:
I bought mine precisely because it was practical enough to be an everyday car, whilst being special enough to be a really fun to drive car too!
There are varying levels of practicality. About the only way it's not practical is that the rear seats are pretty useless. It's comfortable, comparatively economical, has a fair amount of boot space and enough gadgets to make every day use less tiresome (cruise control, dual climate, sat nav, auto lights, etc). It might not be as practical as a hatchback, but it's not a huge amount less practical than many modern family saloons. Indeed, the rear seats fold flat as standard, giving it one up on some saloons
Some people are citing practicality like the GT86 is little more than a Caterham with a roof and can't be used every day. This is not true. I agree with the sentiment of your point, that people want an all round package which might account for poor sales, but for some of us, the car is the right balance of practicality, cost and fun.
Well quite, everyone is different and it's great that there is a car like the Toyota out there. I did drive a friends s couple of times prior to getting the M135i for me the Bmw was the better choice, I don't quite get the talk of the M135i being joyless and dull, it's a 320 bhp, rear wheel drive little car with an absolute glorious 6 cylinder engine, it can be a real hoot to drive, having said that neither the Beemer or the Toyota can touch the Cayman S I sold, I miss that car everyday!There are varying levels of practicality. About the only way it's not practical is that the rear seats are pretty useless. It's comfortable, comparatively economical, has a fair amount of boot space and enough gadgets to make every day use less tiresome (cruise control, dual climate, sat nav, auto lights, etc). It might not be as practical as a hatchback, but it's not a huge amount less practical than many modern family saloons. Indeed, the rear seats fold flat as standard, giving it one up on some saloons
Some people are citing practicality like the GT86 is little more than a Caterham with a roof and can't be used every day. This is not true. I agree with the sentiment of your point, that people want an all round package which might account for poor sales, but for some of us, the car is the right balance of practicality, cost and fun.
loose cannon said:
What utter tripe people bought the hot hatches that don't have lots of under steer out handle the gt86 and funnily enough have 21st century power levels the gt 86 has failed to be a big seller simply because it's to slow ! maybe if they actually listened to the customer and made it 250 bhp min it would sell like hot cakes, getting blown away by a 1.5 dci is not what you want from a sports car lol maybe ok for the 50 plus brigade but it isn't cutting it for most unfortunately
Shame as its not a bad looker bar the lexarse rear lights
It's not really that slow. Have you driven one? Or any of the hatches it's rival to? Yes the 135i is way faster, but it's bit woolly in comparison. It really is. It also costs a lot more in reality and isn't really a rival. Ditto the S3 (great car though that - underrated) and the Golf R. The GTI is more expensive than the GT-86 and when you add the GTI pack (or whatever it's called) it get's too expensive to really compete. At 24 Grand - what is close? Of course there is the Megane, and that really does go and stop in a different league but then it's equally as impractical as the GT-86 getting long in the tooth now. The GT-86 should really be seen as a step up from the Clio Cup and Fiesta RS, rather than a step down from the GTI et al. The 135i, S3 and even the GTI are in another price bracket.Shame as its not a bad looker bar the lexarse rear lights
It's not slow though. Really. It's as fast as a Civic type R, say, because it's light. It's fast.
wtf?loose cannon said:
What utter tripe people bought the hot hatches that don't have lots of under steer out handle the gt86 and funnily enough have 21st century power levels the gt 86 has failed to be a big seller simply because it's to slow ! maybe if they actually listened to the customer and made it 250 bhp min it would sell like hot cakes, getting blown away by a 1.5 dci is not what you want from a sports car lol maybe ok for the 50 plus brigade but it isn't cutting it for most unfortunately
Shame as its not a bad looker bar the lexarse rear lights
Your post is full of exactly the sort of crap I'm talking about.Shame as its not a bad looker bar the lexarse rear lights
Even if a 1.5dci did "blow it away" (hyperbole in the extreme), what does it matter? I'm well aware there's plenty of mundane diesels on the market which could out do me if I forgot I had a gearbox. But I don't car, and I know which care I'd still rather be driving.
Why 250bhp minimum? Are you saying if it was 249bhp then ABSOLUTELY NOT? Surely reliance on stats like this are irrelevant for the customer the GT86 is aimed at?
And simplistic criticisms like "it's too slow!". It's by no means slow; more accurately, it's not powerful. The two are not necessarily the same.
This is the point you seem to be missing. The car was never designed to be the sort of car where you can just stamp your foot and ride a wave of torque. If that's what you want, fine, buy something else. But to mock the GT86 because it doesn't achieve that is ridiculous. The MX5 is almost exactly the same principal - small, lightweight, RWD, modest power, emphasis on fun over performance, yet receives universal praise. Why, when Toyota/Subaru attempt a similar formula do they receive such vehement criticism?
Edited by Conscript on Friday 17th October 18:18
Edited by Conscript on Friday 17th October 18:22
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