Ludgate Circus cyclist tipper lorry
Discussion
The traffic islands at the junction don't help because they force drivers of large vehicles to take particularly tight turns and concentrate on their front ends. It appears there's no button operated crossing at this junction and possibly no moment just for pedestrians in the traffic light sequence so they're given the island to cross half the road at a time.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5141918,-0.10435...
With regards to a lot of the accidents involving tippers, it could be because they have two steering front axles. Two sets of wheels to get caught up in and also a sharper turning angle than other large vehicles.
I've said before that some kind of driver training in schools would be beneficial not just in terms of teaching young people to drive cars but in teaching them about road sense in general. Then even if they end up cycling but not driving they've had some training in traffic laws and awareness of what's going on around them.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5141918,-0.10435...
With regards to a lot of the accidents involving tippers, it could be because they have two steering front axles. Two sets of wheels to get caught up in and also a sharper turning angle than other large vehicles.
I've said before that some kind of driver training in schools would be beneficial not just in terms of teaching young people to drive cars but in teaching them about road sense in general. Then even if they end up cycling but not driving they've had some training in traffic laws and awareness of what's going on around them.
Digby said:
Fair enough, I'm making it all up.My enviroment remains static during all my maneuvers.I never have cyclists surrounding my vehicle clinging to the rear, leaning on the offside and nearside corners of the bed or flying through gaps at breakneck speeds.I never have them ignore my proximity warnings and flashing lights and cut in front of me as I turn.I never check all my mirrors, move away, look back to any of the other mirrors and find a completely different scenario to that I witnessed seconds ago.There are not now thousands of ill-informed Boris bike borrowers who have no clue how to ride, let alone have an idea about road safety.I never see any cyclists jumping red lights or kerb hopping, forcing me to take action.I'm never sat at busy junctions with at least 30 to 40 stationary cyclists directly in front, dozens behind, dozens on either side and dozens flying past in coloured lycra as they have no wish to wait.Basically, all the mirrors, audible warnings and cameras on my truck are simply not required, because there is never a chance I will miss anything as everyone treats the vehicle with such a great deal of respect..
Excellent post :-)Mr Gear said:
Why Haymarket allow apologists for s
t driving is far more of a mystery.
Well, let's see.... Cyclists must see the truck they're passing to the left. They must see it indicating. And they must realise if it moves off and the driver hasn't seen them, they're dead. The truck driver on the other hand simply can't see every cyclist all the time due to traffic volumes, blind spots, and actually looking out of the front of the vehicle from time to time.t driving is far more of a mystery.I've ridden bikes, I've cycled, I drive a car, and I walk places. Never do I position myself to the side of anything indicating. It's pure stupidity to do so.
Mr Gear said:
Thing is, I am here to provide the counter-argument to the myopic view that you can drive like a retard and that's OK.
The problem is that rather than provide a counter argument, you just spew militant vitriol. It's not the same thing and it does not help your cause.The issue with many cyclist and especially the arrogant ones
is that they are at the same level as many of us were as a 15 year old laddie, we were sure we could drive but we what we really mean is that we can make a car go forward and back. Learning to drive is 80% about your relationship to other road users.All drivers have a wee plastic badge that shows that an expert has spent many hours explaining the rules and pitfalls of the road and how to prevent them, doubly so for LGV/PCV and motorcycle drivers.
Until cyclists have mandatory training and licencing to drive on a road they will continue to be the main problem in the situation.
But i'm sure that you do know how to ride properly.....
Edited by The Vambo on Tuesday 21st October 23:19
LucreLout said:
How hard can it be? Just join the queue. If you must jump the queue, then stop behind the massive bloody vehicle that might not have seen you, because sooner or later, they won't have seen you.
What do you do when a vehicle pulls alongside you when you are already in a queue, or stopped at the junction? And then when they turn left without making allowance for you?Mr Gear said:
Thing is, I am here to provide the counter-argument to the myopic view that you can drive like a retard and that's OK.
Sure, cyclists fk up sometimes. But it's actually really easy driving considerately and safely around cyclists. Anyone that has a problem with it is highlighting their own failings as a driver.
HGV drivers have a harder time getting it right, but even they are not always blameless.
This particular accident that started this thread? Who knows who was at fault? It's frankly insulting some of the presumptuous st that some people have been posting. This is a DEAD GIRL we are talking about.
"BLAH BLAH cycling up the inside BLAH BLAH...." you have no idea if that happened, so why post it? It's just idiotic.
I'm not suggesting either cycling or driving like a tard is fine. Simply that truck drivers have a lot of angles to cover and the consequences of being missed once, whoever was at fault, may be fatal for the cyclist. Whatever you ride it drive, if you don't allow space for the other guy to make a mistake, you're doing it wrong. It is, after all, why I leave as much space as possible when overtaking cyclists.Sure, cyclists f
k up sometimes. But it's actually really easy driving considerately and safely around cyclists. Anyone that has a problem with it is highlighting their own failings as a driver.HGV drivers have a harder time getting it right, but even they are not always blameless.
This particular accident that started this thread? Who knows who was at fault? It's frankly insulting some of the presumptuous s
t that some people have been posting. This is a DEAD GIRL we are talking about."BLAH BLAH cycling up the inside BLAH BLAH...." you have no idea if that happened, so why post it? It's just idiotic.
Surely it'd be safer for cyclists just not to pass indicating vehicles?
You have no idea what happened to the girl either so remind me why you get to post and nobody else does? FFS.
Mave said:
Are you happy to queue behind a cyclist when there's a bit of space in front of him? Or do you look for an opportunity to overtake?
Usually there isn't space to pass in London so I wait. Most cyclists aren't a problem. Most drivers aren't either. But its not like left hooks aren't a common truck vs cyclist accident, and it's not like cyclists have no improvement to make to keep themselves safe. Driving standards for all should be higher, but they're not, so plan appropriately.Though your analogy would work better were the cyclist indicating to turn right, and I were to steam round after they signalled.
Mr Gear said:
Sure, cyclists fk up sometimes. But it's actually really easy driving considerately and safely around cyclists. Anyone that has a problem with it is highlighting their own failings as a driver.
I agree, but problems arise when cyclists fail to ride considerately and safely around anyone else despite their efforts.Having said that, I come across just as many riders who deserve praise and merit.They are usually the ones shaking their heads and shouting at the aforementioned types.k up sometimes. But it's actually really easy driving considerately and safely around cyclists. Anyone that has a problem with it is highlighting their own failings as a driver.aizvara said:
When stopped or in a queue? I've already described the sort of thing that can happen at a junction, but I don't see braking as helping when stopped.
If you're stopped in an ASL them vehicles will be stopping behind you.If you're stopped in a queue of traffic then the same applies.
The only way to get stopped at a junction with something big arriving alongside you would be to find one without an ASL, in which case you should have stopped in the middle of the lane not off to the side.
Simple, though I fail to see the relevance unless you contest that trucks usually hit cyclists because they pull up next to a stopped one and don't leave room. That seems very unlikely. And if that is your position, citation definitely needed as to that being the cause of left hook cycle deaths.
LucreLout said:
If you're stopped in an ASL them vehicles will be stopping behind you.
If you're stopped in a queue of traffic then the same applies.
The only way to get stopped at a junction with something big arriving alongside you would be to find one without an ASL, in which case you should have stopped in the middle of the lane not off to the side.
Simple, though I fail to see the relevance unless you contest that trucks usually hit cyclists because they pull up next to a stopped one and don't leave room. That seems very unlikely. And if that is your position, citation definitely needed as to that being the cause of left hook cycle deaths.
I don't contest that trucks usually do anything, but my experience of cycling suggests that even if you are quite careful you may be taken out by someone, say, turning left across you, through no fault of your own. I would not feel comfortable speaking with certainty about what happened in this case. If you're stopped in a queue of traffic then the same applies.
The only way to get stopped at a junction with something big arriving alongside you would be to find one without an ASL, in which case you should have stopped in the middle of the lane not off to the side.
Simple, though I fail to see the relevance unless you contest that trucks usually hit cyclists because they pull up next to a stopped one and don't leave room. That seems very unlikely. And if that is your position, citation definitely needed as to that being the cause of left hook cycle deaths.
One of my own examples; I already posted. There was no ASL, and I was in the middle of what I consider the left turn "lane" (no official segregation). However the coach needed the whole junction to turn, where normally two cars would wait. I don't think it would be reasonable or possible to block the whole width.
aizvara said:
I don't contest that trucks usually do anything, but my experience of cycling suggests that even if you are quite careful you may be taken out by someone, say, turning left across you, through no fault of your own. I would not feel comfortable speaking with certainty about what happened in this case.
One of my own examples; I already posted. There was no ASL, and I was in the middle of what I consider the left turn "lane" (no official segregation). However the coach needed the whole junction to turn, where normally two cars would wait. I don't think it would be reasonable or possible to block the whole width.
In that situation, if I couldn't dismount and wait on the path (safest option), I'd probably jump the lights as soon as cross traffic allowed.One of my own examples; I already posted. There was no ASL, and I was in the middle of what I consider the left turn "lane" (no official segregation). However the coach needed the whole junction to turn, where normally two cars would wait. I don't think it would be reasonable or possible to block the whole width.
Otherwise all I can think of is to walk the bike backwards away from danger, and simply set off after the large vehicle. Not always possible either. Or safe.
dacouch said:
Harji said:
Less heavy vehicles on the road is always a good thing right? Protecting cyclists is a good thing right? I didn't say because of popularity. I'm sure most other road users wouldn't mind seeing HGV's off the roads in AM peak hours. Yes I agree more cars may use the roads, but where I live in London, there are not many work places that accommodate them so there may not be a great change , I can see what you suggest happening in other places though.
As for the HGV's,they are parked somewhere, it just means a more flexible approach to deliveries and duties. We don't really think outside of the norm in this country, it's why we lag behind other European countries that we should be on par with (Denmark, Germany, Holland) with regards to road quality, building and provision for cyclists.
My wife is scared to cycle the roads here, but recently did two hours on a Sedgeway in Cologne or Berlin, she felt at ease and safe. Also you have to keep both hands on the Sedgeway, so no signalling with your arms at junctions and there are no indicators, so all drivers anticipated if you were turning and adjusted to it when approaching junctions. Totally unlike here where I sometimes think we are the most selfish society in the world.
Do you realise that most HGVs are not allowed to use the majority of London's roads between 9pm and 7am Monday to Friday, that means they have to deliver between those hours as well as being able to get to and from their base and abide by their tacho hours. If they're not allowed to move their vehicles in the evening rush hour where do you propose they park in Central London without causing chaos or do you propose they drive out of London at 3pmAs for the HGV's,they are parked somewhere, it just means a more flexible approach to deliveries and duties. We don't really think outside of the norm in this country, it's why we lag behind other European countries that we should be on par with (Denmark, Germany, Holland) with regards to road quality, building and provision for cyclists.
My wife is scared to cycle the roads here, but recently did two hours on a Sedgeway in Cologne or Berlin, she felt at ease and safe. Also you have to keep both hands on the Sedgeway, so no signalling with your arms at junctions and there are no indicators, so all drivers anticipated if you were turning and adjusted to it when approaching junctions. Totally unlike here where I sometimes think we are the most selfish society in the world.
Digby said:
Fair enough, I'm making it all up.My enviroment remains static during all my maneuvers.I never have cyclists surrounding my vehicle clinging to the rear, leaning on the offside and nearside corners of the bed or flying through gaps at breakneck speeds.I never have them ignore my proximity warnings and flashing lights and cut in front of me as I turn.I never check all my mirrors, move away, look back to any of the other mirrors and find a completely different scenario to that I witnessed seconds ago.There are not now thousands of ill-informed Boris bike borrowers who have no clue how to ride, let alone have an idea about road safety.I never see any cyclists jumping red lights or kerb hopping, forcing me to take action.I'm never sat at busy junctions with at least 30 to 40 stationary cyclists directly in front, dozens behind, dozens on either side and dozens flying past in coloured lycra as they have no wish to wait.Basically, all the mirrors, audible warnings and cameras on my truck are simply not required, because there is never a chance I will miss anything as everyone treats the vehicle with such a great deal of respect..
massively over-egging the pudding thereif your vehicle is surrounded by 30 or 40 cyclists, the sensible thing would be:
a. wait a second or two at the lights for them to feck off?
b. run them over and spend the next few months or years justifying the decision in a police station and in court?
forcing you to take action, what like every other vehicle on the road? if someone comes out in front of me, on foot, on a bike, in a car or a bus, i try to avoid hitting them
you can't just say "I can't see everything so f
k it, if someone gets run over it's their fault"if you can't proceed safely, slow down or stop, in every situation
that's absolutely basic
you can't just resort to 'whataboutthem,theydiditfirstsir' as an excuse
if you want to now say "I can never proceed safely" then you're in the wrong job
Edited by Hugo a Gogo on Wednesday 22 October 10:23
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