Ludgate Circus cyclist tipper lorry

[Greeny]

I have the answer.
All lories should have a look out or spotter in the left hand seat, maybe called something like, a passenger or some other more descriptive title.
The job of this individual, male or female, you know, whichever fills the job requirements best, would be to hang out of the nearside window and relay observations back to the driver.
Observations could be worded in the following fashion;
Your all right, your all right, your all right. (ok to turn left)
Woah woah woah. (Cyclists incoming, don't think they have spotted the indicators)
Steady, steady, steady. (Cyclist in vicinity, not sure of its intentions)
Also, as a secondary role, he/she could relay instruction to other road users, for example
Oih you friggin moron, cant you see we are turning left? (excuse me my good man, this lorry is about to execute a manoeuvre to the left, I should keep your toes in chap)
ooooh lucky saddle! (fine posterior you have there good sir/lady)

What do you think. Too simplistic?

[NWTony]

Mr Will said:

Okay, you're driving in the right hand lane, there is a bus in a bus-lane to your left. You overtake it, then slow down and turn left into a junction across it's bows and it flattens you - your fault or the buses fault?

Same scenario, still with a bus lane but this time it's a bike in it - who's fault?

Finally, replace the bus lane with a cycle lane - does it change anything?

Scenario one: No the bus is at fault still, he still plowed into a vehicle he could easily see.

Scenario two: Same thing.

Scenario three: No it doesnt change anything.

I'm not convinced (as you can probably tell) that at a side junction the cycle lane has any sort of priority, they are still part of the general flow off traffic, the only disntiguishing feature is that they can pass on the inside, whereas almost all other road users can't. The fact they can doesn't mean they should or are permitted to.

There is guidance that for the cycle lane going straight on over a side junction to have priortity it must have certain features and to behonest, you don't see many like that.

In the decription given and please remember only that dsescription, no other embellishments, I believe the cyclist are and would be found to have been at fault if an accident had occurred.

[NWTony]

Further research has revealed;

182

Use your mirrors and give a left-turn signal well before you turn left. Do not overtake just before you turn left and watch out for traffic coming up on your left before you make the turn, especially if driving a large vehicle. Cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users in particular may be hidden from your view.

Highway Code - Rule 182 Do Not Cut In On Cyclists

183

When turning

keep as close to the left as is safe and practicable
give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane or tramway from either direction.

It is not a must so it isn't law but it does suggest that cycle lanes, bus lanes and tramways have priority and you should give way for them.

I stil think that given the description, that he didn't cut in on the cyclist however.

taken from https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-...

Edited by NWTony on Wednesday 22 October 19:14

[Digby]

Hugo a Gogo said:

Digby said:

Fair enough, I'm making it all up.My enviroment remains static during all my maneuvers.I never have cyclists surrounding my vehicle clinging to the rear, leaning on the offside and nearside corners of the bed or flying through gaps at breakneck speeds.I never have them ignore my proximity warnings and flashing lights and cut in front of me as I turn.I never check all my mirrors, move away, look back to any of the other mirrors and find a completely different scenario to that I witnessed seconds ago.There are not now thousands of ill-informed Boris bike borrowers who have no clue how to ride, let alone have an idea about road safety.I never see any cyclists jumping red lights or kerb hopping, forcing me to take action.I'm never sat at busy junctions with at least 30 to 40 stationary cyclists directly in front, dozens behind, dozens on either side and dozens flying past in coloured lycra as they have no wish to wait.Basically, all the mirrors, audible warnings and cameras on my truck are simply not required, because there is never a chance I will miss anything as everyone treats the vehicle with such a great deal of respect..

massively over-egging the pudding there

if your vehicle is surrounded by 30 or 40 cyclists, the sensible thing would be:
a. wait a second or two at the lights for them to feck off?
b. run them over and spend the next few months or years justifying the decision in a police station and in court?

forcing you to take action, what like every other vehicle on the road? if someone comes out in front of me, on foot, on a bike, in a car or a bus, i try to avoid hitting them

you can't just say "I can't see everything so fk it, if someone gets run over it's their fault"

if you can't proceed safely, slow down or stop, in every situation

that's absolutely basic
you can't just resort to 'whataboutthem,theydiditfirstsir' as an excuse

if you want to now say "I can never proceed safely" then you're in the wrong job

Edited by Hugo a Gogo on Wednesday 22 October 10:23

So far (and I know a few) you seem to be the only HGV driver I know who seems not to have had any problems at one time or another with cyclists.Why are they bothering with numerous training courses for HGV drivers, dozens of mirrors and audible warnings on vehicles, courses for cyclists, different road layouts, various safety campaigns, cycle lanes, mirrors on traffic lights and entire sections dedicated to these issues on CBT courses if avoiding any issues can simply be summed up by "It isn't rocket science"?

How has any cyclist ever been hit? Because none of the drivers should be behind the wheel? I have yet to hit one, but when in London these days, I understand the chance of this happening is now very real indeed.I have come close numerous times through no fault of my own.I would imagine this is why I often see the police hidden up behind trees etc and watch as they leap into the road to catch red light jumpers and also why there is talk of making bikes have number plates.

I'm not sure when you used to negotiate around the streets of the capital, but I know several drivers who now deliver there after several years of being 'London free' who were shocked at how much it has changed in the last few years.I sadly have to venture up there almost every week covering all of London and have done so for the last 6 or 7 years.There are good days and bad days, granted, but please don't try to convince me that I am not experiencing these incidents or am simply exaggerating.The entire industry knows these issues are very real and they are trying to cut down on them happening.If you have some miracle formula to avoid all this investment, I suggest you put it out there.

[Hugo a Gogo]

sadly, I never was an HGV driver, only a piss poor 7.5 tonne multidrop driver (boo! much mockery ensues!)
and yes, it was around 96 when I last did that in London
probably a lot less cyclists, a few more motorbike DRs

main answers would revolve around mirrors, training, responsibility

all three things lacking from your average tipper driver and his truck

you know as well as I do that these guys are 90% absolute cowboys, generally your proper professional drivers aren't squashing cyclists

[Digby]

Hugo a Gogo said:

heebeegeetee said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

massively over-egging the pudding there

if your vehicle is surrounded by 30 or 40 cyclists, the sensible thing would be:
a. wait a second or two at the lights for them to feck off?

What, and you think there'll be no more cyclists coming?

what would you do then?
run them over?

This is the problem, in many areas, they never stop coming.What do you do? Let all the other road users know that you are sorry the lights have now changed half a dozen times, but you can't move for fear of killing people?

[Digby]

Hugo a Gogo said:

sadly, I never was an HGV driver, only a piss poor 7.5 tonne multidrop driver (boo! much mockery ensues!)
and yes, it was around 96 when I last did that in London

With the greatest of respect, I wish you had suggested this at the start.On the odd occasion I have used our 7.5 tonner in the city, it feels almost like using a transit van in comparison and an entire world of opportunity in terms of where I can go, maneuvers I can make, corners I can now use, streets I can negotiate, bridges I can go under, weight limits and timed zones I can ignore etc are all opened up.We used to jokingly call it a "day off" if ever any of us had to use it.And that's before we go down the route of how much easier it is to spot rogue cyclists when you are only a few feet off the floor or they are stopped a few feet behind you rather than 40.

Edited by Digby on Wednesday 22 October 20:33

[sparkyhx]

victim died today, nobody deserves to die on their way to work.

Cyclists in London seam to be a different breed, there are far too many nutters and dangerous ones who are their own worst enemy .

Only this morning while crossing Hammersmith road on a green light pedestrian crossing - 4 cyclists went past the front of me on the second half of the crossing on a red light. One did stop. They were so blatent that I had to check myself that the crossing wasnt a two stage one with separate lights for the left and right carriage way.

they weren't

so from that example they have a 80% fail rate at stopping at red lights.

Edited by sparkyhx on Wednesday 22 October 20:38

[Pit Pony]

My next work contract is in Derby. Cycle city. Can't wait. (Actually, I have to wait. security clearance)

[Digby]

Hugo a Gogo said:

..you know as well as I do that these guys are 90% absolute cowboys, generally your proper professional drivers aren't squashing cyclists

And cyclists with a modicum of intelligence appear to be the ones not being squashed? It's tragic, but cowboy drivers or not, the only reasons I could ever imagine being crushed by a truck would almost all revolve around adopting the same bad habbits I see from cyclists so regularly.There are drivers of all types of vehicles I see whose actions leave me cold, so I am not so naive to think that all cyclists are at fault, but my cycling proficiency test - taken at the tender age of eight or nine years old, taught me how to avoid those situations and bad habbits (most of it was hardly rocket science to be fair).

Any deviation from those learned lessons is just risk-taking in my eyes and the risks are very real and carry serious consequences.Sure, I shouldn't have to adapt my riding to allow for such drivers (get them all of the roads I say), but I also shouldn't have to adapt my driving to avoid such riders.I do, however, because of the consequences.We all do.

I think part of the problem is that what I may see as a risky manoeuvre, others may feel is nothing out of the ordinary and is simply classed as making progress.I see the potential for a 'cowboy' to overtake a cyclist and hook a left in front of them and in my mind, on my imaginary bike, I am already braking based on nothing more than the fact there is a road to the drivers left a few yards ahead.He may or may not turn, but he may..

But then as you suggest, this won't allow for those cowboys on a mission who leave the cutting across so late that the cyclist doesn't have time to blink, but I rarely see it left quite so late should it happen (I see it happen a lot with taxi drivers - especially the Addison Lee types, though!).There almost always seems to be time to either avoid such HGV drivers, or, keep yourself far enough out of the way that should they become one, it will be someone else's problem and not your own.

RIP to the rider.

Hugo a Gogo said:

main answers would revolve around mirrors, training, responsibility

all three things lacking from your average tipper driver and his truck

Forgot to add that they have no choice regarding mirrors and training.Even drivers who have been behind the wheel for decades can now only keep their licence if they carry out all the CPC course modules.Some drivers I know even had to give up their trucks for a day and ride a bike in London as part of this training! It also shows once again that no amount of mirrors will prevent such incidents.The more you have, the more you need to check.The more you need to check, the more likely the situation will have changed in the others.You can't check them all, all of the time.The responsibility part, despite being rammed home, will be up to the individual.

Edited by Digby on Thursday 23 October 00:08

[Mr Gear]

But... stating it once again, and in consideration of the poor victim here, we do not know she did ANYTHING wrong. You do not need to do anything wrong to be a victim.

Her family and friends could easily come across this thread, especially given the title of it, and the least we can do is respect the fact we know nothing of what happened, and anyone who claims otherwise is doing the whole of pistonheads a disservice.

[The Vambo]

Mr Gear said:

But... stating it once again, and in consideration of the poor victim here, we do not know she did ANYTHING wrong. You do not need to do anything wrong to be a victim.

Her family and friends could easily come across this thread, especially given the title of it, and the least we can do is respect the fact we know nothing of what happened, and anyone who claims otherwise is doing the whole of pistonheads a disservice.

Look, this is a discussion forum not a court. We can speculate, we can digress and we can go off on a tangent.

This thread and all the posters in it have kept well inside what could be considered good taste, if it's not for you go away and start a forum where you get to set the agenda.

[heebeegeetee]

NWTony said:

I'm talking about this very specific example from earlier in the thread, Tony hasn't overtaken anyone. Please don't assume you can put words into my mouth, it betrays an arrogance that is barely hidden inyour normal posts.

Calm down dear, it's only a bit of banter. I do apologise though 'cos I'd mixed you up with Bob, so sorry for that.

NWTony said:

Further research has revealed;

182

Use your mirrors and give a left-turn signal well before you turn left. Do not overtake just before you turn left and watch out for traffic coming up on your left before you make the turn, especially if driving a large vehicle. Cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users in particular may be hidden from your view.

Highway Code - Rule 182 Do Not Cut In On Cyclists

183

When turning

keep as close to the left as is safe and practicable
give way to any vehicles using a bus lane, cycle lane or tramway from either direction.

It is not a must so it isn't law but it does suggest that cycle lanes, bus lanes and tramways have priority and you should give way for them.

I stil think that given the description, that he didn't cut in on the cyclist however.

taken from https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-...

I mean that's it, isn't? Aside from impeding someone he's just overtaken, and carrying out a manoeuvre that is going to affect other road users, unless there's an aspect of the cycle lane that we're not aware of I can't see how Bob could have been in the right.

[aizvara]

loose cannon said:

Quickly bump up the kerb so you don't get flattened by a few tons of metal ?

As mentioned before, yes, that's what I did. In my case there were no barriers as there often are at major junctions.

My point was that it is not always as simple as "join the back of the queue".

[Hugo a Gogo]

Digby said:

With the greatest of respect, I wish you had suggested this at the start.On the odd occasion I have used our 7.5 tonner in the city, it feels almost like using a transit van in comparison and an entire world of opportunity in terms of where I can go, maneuvers I can make, corners I can now use, streets I can negotiate, bridges I can go under, weight limits and timed zones I can ignore etc are all opened up.We used to jokingly call it a "day off" if ever any of us had to use it.And that's before we go down the route of how much easier it is to spot rogue cyclists when you are only a few feet off the floor or they are stopped a few feet behind you rather than 40.

Edited by Digby on Wednesday 22 October 20:33

I used one of the crappy old AWD ltd Bedford TK continuation things for a good while, that was no day off

but mostly a Leyland Daf roadranger, it was actually easier than a LWB tranny or similar for turning circle etc

but yes, I'm not claiming to be super-driver or saying I know it all, but the main thing that causes these incidents is people not paying enough attention, or trying to be in a hurry, cyclists and drivers - they can be avoided

[Hackney]

Hugo a Gogo said:

heebeegeetee said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

massively over-egging the pudding there

if your vehicle is surrounded by 30 or 40 cyclists, the sensible thing would be:
a. wait a second or two at the lights for them to feck off?

What, and you think there'll be no more cyclists coming?

what would you do then?
run them over?

I used to get this situation regularly. waiting at the traffic lights on Essex Road, by Essex Road station.
There's no cycle lane, but there is an ASL. I would be going straight on at the lights, but taking a left turn about 100m after them.

Whenever I was first in line I'd go in the left lane. Then wait while a multitude of cyclists did their best to get as close to my car as they could while variously stopping at the ASL / going past the ASL and continuing despite a red light / riding along the pavement and joining the road past the ASL to cross through the red light.

When the ASL was full bikes would fill the channels to my left and right. There was no chance of fast getaway to create distance between me and the cyclists before the left turn. So it would be a slow pull away.... slower than the slowest bike rider who was usually at the front. Then as they each found their pace I'd steadily increase my speed.

After about 30m (and another junction to the left) I'd put on my left indicator and start to look for a gap (not that I stopped looking all around me) so I could turn left. Meanwhile cyclists who hadn't had to slow for the lights and could continue at speed were catching up and overtaking other cyclists and undertaking me.

Indicator still on I'd wait and wait until it was safe to turn. Often I'd get abuse because a cyclist had to slow down or go around me as I turned.
The alternative was come to a dead stop in the road.

At that junction there was NO LET UP in the cyclists coming through at the time I was approaching the junction.
A combination of cyclists who don't stop and those who do; slow cyclists and fast cyclists meant there was never a clear period.

Of course I would always be the one in the wrong because of their lack of observation. Not from every cyclist but enough out of every time.

So, Hugo, what's your advice in that situation?

[v12Legs]

The Vambo said:

The problem is that rather than provide a counter argument, you just spew militant vitriol. It's not the same thing and it does not help your cause.

The issue with many cyclist and especially the arrogant ones is that they are at the same level as many of us were as a 15 year old laddie, we were sure we could drive but we what we really mean is that we can make a car go forward and back. Learning to drive is 80% about your relationship to other road users.

All drivers have a wee plastic badge that shows that an expert has spent many hours explaining the rules and pitfalls of the road and how to prevent them, doubly so for LGV/PCV and motorcycle drivers.

Until cyclists have mandatory training and licencing to drive on a road they will continue to be the main problem in the situation.

But i'm sure that you do know how to ride properly.....

Edited by The Vambo on Tuesday 21st October 23:19

Well not only are the vast majority of cyclists also holders of a driving licence, there's also the inconvenient fact that the driver is at sole fault in the majority of driver-cyclist collisions. At least 70% IIRC, with the cyclist at sole fault in c.15% and shared or unclear for the remainder.

[Hugo a Gogo]

Hackney said:

So, Hugo, what's your advice in that situation?

sounds like you did the best you could do (assuming you never killed any of them)

[Mave]

Hackney said:

So, Hugo, what's your advice in that situation?

This situation is directly analogous to a cyclist wanting to move across to turn right but unable to do so because of all the cars streaming past overtaking; or joining a motorway behind a lorry and everyone slingshotting past stopping you changing lanes. What do you do? Wait until it's safe.

[Hackney]

Mave said:

Hackney said:

So, Hugo, what's your advice in that situation?

This situation is directly analogous to a cyclist wanting to move across to turn right but unable to do so because of all the cars streaming past overtaking; or joining a motorway behind a lorry and everyone slingshotting past stopping you changing lanes. What do you do? Wait until it's safe.

Define "safe".
And if your definition involves, "when there is a suitable gap between cyclists" then I'm afraid "safe" will never happen.
This is entirely due to the number of cyclists who simply do not observe indicators and who do not take any action (brake, go round) even if they have sufficient time to do so.

Imagine the scene in World War Z when wave after wave after wave of zombies swarms around the terminally ill kid.
That's what it's like.