Becoming a Dad + next car quandary

[Welshbeef]

dvs_dave said:

'm well aware of that, but they are still wider than virtually anything out there. Factor in the generous standard legroom plus the 5-6in extra in the LWB versions with the commensurately longer doors and loads of floor/leg room and you'll not find anything with a more spacious "second row". Full size SUVs compare on width, but they're still dissapointing when it comes to the crucial maximum distance available seat back to seat back. Especially if the driver is tall, like I am at 6'8". Literally nothing this side of a LWB saloon can accommodate a rear facing child seat behind me without compromising my driving position and comfort.

Point I'm making: yes, ultimately there are more practical options out there (especially if you're a family of midgets), a minivan being by far the best but also the most un-PH. However a LWB saloon makes for a surprisingly good option for a couple of kids that people wouldn't normally consider, whilst still being very appealing to a typical PHer.

But an adult cannot sit between the two child seats in the back row crucial if one if or two are poorly or crying or having a strop etc instead your in the passenger seat unable to do much about it to comfort them.

[dvs_dave]

Welshbeef said:

But an adult cannot sit between the two child seats in the back row crucial if one if or two are poorly or crying or having a strop etc instead your in the passenger seat unable to do much about it to comfort them.

Yes they can as there's 3 widely spaced seats back there and tons of legroom to play with. But more to the point, what are you comparing it to where that is an easy option? A 3 row suv where said adult is pretzeled into the tiny third row and having to reach over into the second row is not solving anything.

[Joe M]

Would a volvo v70 or xc60 manage the 2 seats plus a person in the middle trick?

[Garvin]

A few of points:

1. The Range Rover, a full sized SUV, has rather large arm chairs up front with a rather wide centre console between. In the back three adults can sit very comfortably without rubbing shoulders. It can easily accommodate two baby seats with an adult between - no problem.

2. I have the driver's seat fully back on every car I drive including the RR. There is plenty of knee room even so for adults - it's the reason I replaced the Discoveries with it as my lads grew as the Discoveries were tight on knee room. I can assure anyone that a rear facing baby seat will fit back there with the front seat fully back.

3. The flat load bay of SUVs makes getting buggies etc in and out a breeze, much easier than anyone saloon or hatchback unless it's one with the height adjustable boot floor (but these just cut down the available space). The Discoveries were great for this with the wide opening 'cupboard' door, the RR not so good for the vertically challenged with the split tail gate approach but still relatively easy compared to most other vehicles.

4. The Discoveries and RRs come with gas guzzling V8s for those who want the oomph and sound track . . . . . and don't mind the fuel costs! More frugal diesel alternatives are also available.

5. The SUVs are great holiday and all year round vehicles as they can go anywhere/park anywhere/deal with any weather conditions without getting stuck!

[blueg33]

Welcome to Mumsnet

Meanwhile on PH both a 911 and Lotus Evora have rear seats.........


Just joking - Audi A6 was the best family car we had, even big enough for junior in the back when he got to 6ft 3.

[Welshbeef]

dvs_dave said:

es they can as there's 3 widely spaced seats back there and tons of legroom to play with. But more to the point, what are you comparing it to where that is an easy option? A 3 row suv where said adult is pretzeled into the tiny third row and having to reach over into the second row is not solving anything.

Well we're at an impasse I totally disagree that an adult can sit between two isofix child seats in he back of A8/XJ etc - one reason is that to actually click in your middle seatbelt you'd need to be twisting round there simply is no easy access however no adult can sit between the seats


Why not take a pic proving me wrong?

[Rangeroverover]

Essentials

1) Buy classic car that is pre 66 and has no seatbelts, ergo no childseat
2) Buy large wafty estate car you can hose out

I am coming back to this after a 23 year gap, it is stunning how large all the kit is, the transformer style pram + isofix cassette thing needs a degree in mechanical engineering to operate.

The classic car is essential for sanity so that you can just occasionaly drive the way you want without concern for what is going on in the back seat. I had a beautiful perfect 560SEC when my son was about 5, I had to sell it after six weeks because it was breaking my heart every time my son was in it. He was pretty well behaved but you cannot prevent a 5 year old from pressing every button, having muddy feet, sticky hands. A full pat down search for crayons etc prior to every journey gets a bit wearing so buy something you dont care about Allroad works for me

Good luck, might bump into you in the queue at the snip job clinic

[blueg33]

Welshbeef said:

Well we're at an impasse I totally disagree that an adult can sit between two isofix child seats in he back of A8/XJ etc - one reason is that to actually click in your middle seatbelt you'd need to be twisting round there simply is no easy access however no adult can sit between the seats


Why not take a pic proving me wrong?

It was tight, but my wife could sit between two baby seats in the back of the A6 so I am sure its feasible in the A8. And yes, you could do up the seatbelt

[Mr E]

blueg33 said:

It was tight, but my wife could sit between two baby seats in the back of the A6 so I am sure its feasible in the A8. And yes, you could do up the seatbelt

I think it very much depends on the kiddy seat. Some are very large indeed.
I wouldn't like to sit in the back of our current E class with a second seat that was the same as the one we currently have.

[PomBstard]

Joe M said:

PomBstard said:

Joe M said:

Pretty much the same cars I thought of, was hoping someone had a more inspiring idea, haha.
Smax probably the most sensible for us out of that lot, but wondering if a 2012 vintage e220 would have the space, there cheaper than the equivalent 5 series, which didn't quite have the rear seat space.

New shape Forester - bigger inside than you'd think, XT is fun too. Plenty of room for three kids seats across the back - middle is easily useble with two seats in place. Was on my hit list when PB3 turned up, but boot not quite big enough with three - plenty for two though.

Do they all have the cvt gearbox though or is there a normal automatic/manual option?
What did you end up with?

Yes, all new Forester XT come with CVT, but write ups seem good, and they're still an entertaining drive - I only had a short test, but was enough to impress, just that the boot wasn't really deep enough for the larger crap that three kids require carrying - bikes and scooters alongside the pram.

As for what I ended up with, well, I've got a thread going in the Aus forum as I needed a car that could take 3 child seats (one capsule, two boosters) across the back, so have researched big wagons quite well...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Initially went for a Liberty GT wagon as I could get all the seats across and its a fun car. However, what I hadn't realised is that its shoulder room that counts, so when the eldest was out of the booster, the other two seats squeezed in and reduced the available room. Ergo, the Liberty went and the search recommenced.

I used this website to check shoulder width - its US so not all cars are on there, but there are many UK cars. A quick look shows a 2015 Audi A8 to have the same shoulder width as a 2012 XC90, for instance...

http://www.thecarconnection.com

I've ended up with a 2008 Volvo V70 T6. Keeping it to the kid features, it has a trump card over the XC90 in that the rear seat has two of the pop-up boosters. These are truly ace - cuts out the need for a booster seat to be in the car, and frees up the shoulder room to make the centre seat more-usable. It then screws that up by having nowhere near as much rear leg room as you'd expect. I won't go into the driving experience. Its not a pretty sight.

For those that insist on a Euro car that needs to be big inside, ask your friendly Vaux dealer to import one of these...



Comes with 6.0 litre V8 with around 340bhp out the box, going up to 450'ish quite easily. Six-speed auto only though. They are bigger than an A8 across the rear - I had a good test drive in one, and reckon that its the next PB family truckster. Boot is vast.

The other would be to ask your friendly Ford dealer to get you one of these...



Ford Territory currently comes with 4.0 I6 or some Diesel but used to come with 4.0-litre turbo I6. Even wider across the rear bench than the Commodore, and comes as seven seater too.

If you can look to Japan, the new Outbacks are also pretty big inside and come with the 3.6-litre flat six.

I've probably forgotten stuff, might come back later.

[dvs_dave]

blueg33 said:

Welshbeef said:

Well we're at an impasse I totally disagree that an adult can sit between two isofix child seats in he back of A8/XJ etc - one reason is that to actually click in your middle seatbelt you'd need to be twisting round there simply is no easy access however no adult can sit between the seats


Why not take a pic proving me wrong?

It was tight, but my wife could sit between two baby seats in the back of the A6 so I am sure its feasible in the A8. And yes, you could do up the seatbelt

Well there you go. An A8 is a meaningful amount wider than an A6 so case closed.

Although I'm still intrigued as to what options you are suggesting where this is easily possible, apart from an A8L of course

[Welshbeef]

Mr E said:

blueg33 said:

It was tight, but my wife could sit between two baby seats in the back of the A6 so I am sure its feasible in the A8. And yes, you could do up the seatbelt

I think it very much depends on the kiddy seat. Some are very large indeed.
I wouldn't like to sit in the back of our current E class with a second seat that was the same as the one we currently have.

Well there you go evidence enough

[PomBstard]

Welshbeef said:

Mr E said:

blueg33 said:

It was tight, but my wife could sit between two baby seats in the back of the A6 so I am sure its feasible in the A8. And yes, you could do up the seatbelt

I think it very much depends on the kiddy seat. Some are very large indeed.
I wouldn't like to sit in the back of our current E class with a second seat that was the same as the one we currently have.

Well there you go evidence enough

Or some measurements...

All are rear shoulder room in inches for 2015 model - I've picked a few of the cars mentioned on this page and added a couple for comparison. I've picked shoulder room as that seems to be where the problem lies, in my experience.

Audi A6 - 56.3
Audi A8L - 57.8
Forester - 56.5
Outback - 57.3
Merc E - 56.9
2012 XC90 - 57.8
Range Rover - 59.4
Chevy SS/Holden Commodore - 59.0

[Joe M]

Good info, I think the holden above is the VXR8 over here, not really a car for the missus, I would need to sell my m3 to justify one. We don't get the ford territory.

[Welshbeef]

PomBstard said:

Or some measurements...

All are rear shoulder room in inches for 2015 model - I've picked a few of the cars mentioned on this page and added a couple for comparison. I've picked shoulder room as that seems to be where the problem lies, in my experience.

Audi A6 - 56.3
Audi A8L - 57.8
Forester - 56.5
Outback - 57.3
Merc E - 56.9
2012 XC90 - 57.8
Range Rover - 59.4
Chevy SS/Holden Commodore - 59.0

Interesting.
Now the maxi cosi family fix - narrower by some way than the baby carrier or seats for 2 is 28 inches - remember the isofix doesn't have anchor points at couldn't level.

Taking the A8L total width shoulder to shoulder 57.8 now per person that is 19.23inches which is touching on both sides. The maxi cosi family flex is 14 inches which would mean 2.5 inches "spare either side.
Next the maxi cosi baby car seat to fit into the base is 47cm which is 17inches so you have one inch either side
Lests assume 2x baby seats in the car and the positioning of the isofix points it would mean that piggy in the middle has at the maximum 21inches which is touching the bases either side (far from comfortable and at at it would mean not possible to put the seat belt on and off without leveraging your back and arse off the seat and fondle behind you until you find the button. Fine I support in day to day lethal in an accident.


And remember that post baby seat the bigger car seat up until booster seats is notably wider.

Average human width with arms down is 18inches.

Edited by Welshbeef on Tuesday 25th August 07:03

Edited by Welshbeef on Tuesday 25th August 07:08

[Joe M]

I've found the best way to measure is between the 2 inner isofix mounts, this then takes into account the positioning of the kid seats on the outside. A 3 series has large bolsters on the outside pushing the child seats inboard, between the inner isofix is 13.5 inches and is too tight for anyone.
A leon or a4 is about 17", this is tight for a skinny 11 year old and I would only do the shortest journeys like this.
So, if you have a big car, whats the distance between the inner isofix points?

[jamieduff1981]

blueg33 said:

Welshbeef said:

Well we're at an impasse I totally disagree that an adult can sit between two isofix child seats in he back of A8/XJ etc - one reason is that to actually click in your middle seatbelt you'd need to be twisting round there simply is no easy access however no adult can sit between the seats


Why not take a pic proving me wrong?

It was tight, but my wife could sit between two baby seats in the back of the A6 so I am sure its feasible in the A8. And yes, you could do up the seatbelt

Ive sat in between two Stage 2 child seats in the back of my S-Type and XF. It was tight but we fitted. Fine for short journeys; a little uncomfortable from northern Aberdeenshire to Perth but still *possible*. My little sister has sat there comfortably (she's quite small).

[dvs_dave]

Welshbeef said:

PomBstard said:

Or some measurements...

All are rear shoulder room in inches for 2015 model - I've picked a few of the cars mentioned on this page and added a couple for comparison. I've picked shoulder room as that seems to be where the problem lies, in my experience.

Audi A6 - 56.3
Audi A8L - 57.8
Forester - 56.5
Outback - 57.3
Merc E - 56.9
2012 XC90 - 57.8
Range Rover - 59.4
Chevy SS/Holden Commodore - 59.0

Interesting.
Now the maxi cosi family fix - narrower by some way than the baby carrier or seats for 2 is 28 inches - remember the isofix doesn't have anchor points at couldn't level.

Taking the A8L total width shoulder to shoulder 57.8 now per person that is 19.23inches which is touching on both sides. The maxi cosi family flex is 14 inches which would mean 2.5 inches "spare either side.
Next the maxi cosi baby car seat to fit into the base is 47cm which is 17inches so you have one inch either side
Lests assume 2x baby seats in the car and the positioning of the isofix points it would mean that piggy in the middle has at the maximum 21inches which is touching the bases either side (far from comfortable and at at it would mean not possible to put the seat belt on and off without leveraging your back and arse off the seat and fondle behind you until you find the button. Fine I support in day to day lethal in an accident.


And remember that post baby seat the bigger car seat up until booster seats is notably wider.

Average human width with arms down is 18inches.

Edited by Welshbeef on Tuesday 25th August 07:03

Edited by Welshbeef on Tuesday 25th August 07:08

You're getting into the weeds and blinding yourself with theory.

This evening I took another baby carrier we have and installed it in the other rear seat of my A8. I didn't install the base as that would make it difficult to actually get into and out of the middle seat. Rather I slid into the middle seat whilst carrying the other baby carrier and buckled it in beside me. I then buckled myself inbetween the two baby carriers without any difficulty at all. Elbow room was a bit tight but it wasn't particularly cramped or uncomfortable. And for a sense of scale, I am a huge man....6'8" and 20 stone so a more normal sized person would find it even easier.

So, back to the OP. There are better, more practical, but also crap to drive family buses. But for 2 kids and to retain some PH cred, a large saloon car is more than up to the job, yet is perhaps not an obvious option .

[Welshbeef]

PomBstard said:

Or some measurements...

All are rear shoulder room in inches for 2015 model - I've picked a few of the cars mentioned on this page and added a couple for comparison. I've picked shoulder room as that seems to be where the problem lies, in my experience.

Audi A6 - 56.3
Audi A8L - 57.8
Forester - 56.5
Outback - 57.3
Merc E - 56.9
2012 XC90 - 57.8
Range Rover - 59.4
Chevy SS/Holden Commodore - 59.0

Do you happen to know the same size for a Honda Accord 05 flavour and a F10 5 series thanks would be good to see how I measure up.

[pointedstarman]

We have twins (they're just coming up to 5 yrs old) and my previous E65 730d made for a great family car. Better, in most circumstances, to the 520d Touring that came before it. The reasons:

- The E65 had far more leg room in the back meaning the kids didn't scuff the back of the seats as they couldn't reach them.
- With the extra legroom came space for the bags of 'stuff' you needed to get at while on the move and so couldn't leave in the boot.
- The car was wider and with it came a bigger gap between the front seats so you could easily reach back when needed to give / take things from the kids and retrieve stuff dropped in the foot wells.
- The extra width meant an adult could easily travel in the back between the 2 child seats (my wife was perfectly happy doing 2 to 3 hours in the back when we visited family).
- the boot was massive and easily fit everything we needed, including stuff for holidays. We never had to leave stuff behind because it didn't fit.

Now they're a little older we need less space and the E65's replacement, a F10 525d does the job perfectly well.

My recommendation for a good family car would definitely be a big saloon such as the 7 series, A8 or S Class. The fact it's also nice to drive is a bonus!

NB - when the kids arrived we bought an old Mazda MPV because we fell for the whole "you'll need something big to carry it all" thing. I guess some people might do but we only ever filled the thing when we took the whole family (4 plus 2 grannies) on holiday. I sold it after 3 months as we didn't need it. This said, if you do need the space look for an MPV with rear sliding doors (a la the Mazda) as they were really useful.