Clarkson on cameras - does he have a point?
Discussion
They're making it an All Lanes Running smart motorway. Why reduce the limit because they've coned the hard shoulder off for no apparent reason when before long it'll be gone for good and the limit be back up to 70mph? Yes there will be the odd retreat area but people can move cones or get round them now if need be.
saaby93 said:
I think this was argued inconclusively a while back.
Have you found any statistics a lower limit improves safety in roadworks?
No idea, haven't checked - I just find it sensible not to carry on at speed barely a cars width away from people trying to do a quite risky job. At least in principle, someone must work on them at some point...Have you found any statistics a lower limit improves safety in roadworks?
delboy735 said:
Whilst I agree with the "time and place" and roadworks are not them, what are the statistics for Crashes in roadworks?? Given that the vast majority of vehicles are actually travelling at the same speed ( or thereabouts anyway ).
Are we as a nation just dumbing everything down and turning into brainwashed automatons??
As said, no idea, it is just logical to me.Are we as a nation just dumbing everything down and turning into brainwashed automatons??
Blakewater said:
A work colleague of mine was driving along a section of the M62 where there was a 50mph limit and no roadworks or lane closures. She was getting frustrated with it and people were charging past her so she assumed they knew they could get away with it. She allowed her speed to creep up to the mid sixties, nothing silly, and got an NIP through the post for 62mph in the 50mph zone.
Now they're making the M60 and M62 around Manchester smart motorway there's a 50mph limit round there with nothing happening apart from cones along the hard shoulder. When so many of the speed limit reductions are for nothing because they're set up along the whole length of a road including where nothing will begin for months it lulls people into thinking there's no real need to slow down. Then people carry on speeding when there are workmen there and accidents happen.
Part of the problem is people just become de-sensitized to it, like maintaining a decent gap to the vehicle in front of you, an art not practiced by many these days until it all goes wrong...Now they're making the M60 and M62 around Manchester smart motorway there's a 50mph limit round there with nothing happening apart from cones along the hard shoulder. When so many of the speed limit reductions are for nothing because they're set up along the whole length of a road including where nothing will begin for months it lulls people into thinking there's no real need to slow down. Then people carry on speeding when there are workmen there and accidents happen.
Osinjak said:
If they're forward facing you're absolutely right but I have gone through some that are backward facing, presumably to make sure motorcyclists can't get away with it.
The in jest answer is just pass through on the back wheel, as a rear facing camera cannot see it then. 
jdw1234 said:
I thought rather than for the safety of the workers it was because the hard shoulder is normally out of action or lanes reduced. 50mph is the speed at which crash levels are lowest so least likely to result in obstructions to flow.
why do you sometimes get 10 miles of sleepy 40 I see 50mph limits for mile after mile on the motorway, many enforced with cameras, some with signs saying " speed limit for your safety".
Sorry but its too much, driving is becoming a real pain in the ar*e.
Each section turns into a cluster f**k as you deal with cars inches away from you with no speed differential, don't think about slowing down as you then have unlimited amounts of people driving closely behind you, wanting to make progress and then overtaking which has its own inherent dangers.
All this while monitoring your speed and watching for the speed limit increasing then decreasing- once again all policed with a camera just waiting for you to make a mistake.
Drive a few tens of thousands of miles each year and you quickly get sick of it!
Sorry but its too much, driving is becoming a real pain in the ar*e.
Each section turns into a cluster f**k as you deal with cars inches away from you with no speed differential, don't think about slowing down as you then have unlimited amounts of people driving closely behind you, wanting to make progress and then overtaking which has its own inherent dangers.
All this while monitoring your speed and watching for the speed limit increasing then decreasing- once again all policed with a camera just waiting for you to make a mistake.
Drive a few tens of thousands of miles each year and you quickly get sick of it!
Nigel Worc's said:
Only from what I hear on the radio etc, but I'd wager a guess that more accidents happen in roadworks with speed limits enforced by scameras, than in those without scameras with or without speed limits .
The non scamered ones always seem to flow free without bunching.
I'll take you up on that wager. The managed section of the M42 runs massively more smoothly, with far fewer crashes than used to be the case before they introduced hard shoulder running and lower limits. My commute home used to be delayed pretty much weekly by a crash in lane 3, somewhere between J6 and 4a, caused by the traffic concertinaing back and catching someone out who didn't understand the concept of driving without tailgating. That pretty much disappeared with the introduction of the managed speed limits.The non scamered ones always seem to flow free without bunching.
krallicious said:
Driving a non UK registered car means average speed cameras are quite relaxing to drive through 
Might not be any guarantee. 16 months after driving through Switzerland in an Italian-registered car I got a bill in the post (here in the US) for CHF120 after getting done by a Swiss speed camera.I don't think many of us begrudge temporary speed limits when something is actually happening there. It's frustrating but understandable. I think what really erodes respect for limits is the miles after miles of significantly reduced limit when patently NOBODY IS WORKING THERE, and won't be for months! I mean specifically the bits where for three miles there's maybe the occasional cone at the side of the road but nothing more. All I can deduce from this is that the construction company want to ensure they only need to set up the signs once for the entire job. I propose that someone from the council or police drives around the roadworks sections once a week, and if the reduced limit applies any more than half a mile either side of where the work is actually occurring, the construction company is levelled with a fine - which increases by the normal throughput of the road, the reduction in speed, and the extents. So an unnecessary 1/4 mile of quiet country lane marked from 60 to 50 would be minimal - but six miles of the M25 reduced from 70 to 40 will be enough to bankrupt you.
Economic incentive is all it needs I think.
Economic incentive is all it needs I think.
I agree with this entirely but sometimes the net result is difficult, almost impossible, for the average motorist to see. Thus they assume the speed limits are arbitrary and pointless money makers. (Speaking about managed motorways speed limits not the roadworks thing which frankly I can live with)
I will specify cruise control for my daughters first car as a must due to the way you can simply set the speed limit, take your feet off the pedals and leave the stress of it all to a little computer.
I will specify cruise control for my daughters first car as a must due to the way you can simply set the speed limit, take your feet off the pedals and leave the stress of it all to a little computer.
MrTrilby said:
I'll take you up on that wager. The managed section of the M42 runs massively more smoothly, with far fewer crashes than used to be the case before they introduced hard shoulder running and lower limits. My commute home used to be delayed pretty much weekly by a crash in lane 3, somewhere between J6 and 4a, caused by the traffic concertinaing back and catching someone out who didn't understand the concept of driving without tailgating. That pretty much disappeared with the introduction of the managed speed limits.
Blakewater said:
Average speed cameras face the front of your car so presumably don't affect motorcyclists.
They set some facing backwards. Easy to spot though. I don't take the piss when I'm on a bike because you don't want to stand out too much. It may well be possible to travel faster than your average car without sanction however (when safe to do so) .teabagger said:
Each section turns into a cluster f**k as you deal with cars inches away from you with no speed differential, don't think about slowing down as you then have unlimited amounts of people driving closely behind you, wanting to make progress and then overtaking which has its own inherent dangers.
All this while monitoring your speed and watching for the speed limit increasing then decreasing- once again all policed with a camera just waiting for you to make a mistake.
Do you really find it this difficult to regulate your speed on a motorway? All this while monitoring your speed and watching for the speed limit increasing then decreasing- once again all policed with a camera just waiting for you to make a mistake.
Big sign, do speed it says or less - overtake slower cars, be overtaken by faster cars.
Apart from the need to alter your speed a bit occasionally it's not so different to the 70mph speed limit that has been in force for nearly 50 years is it?
Welcome to the club Jeremy. I was caught out by a camera hidden in a bush. The road in question was so beautiful you could land a jumbo jet on it: straight, vision for miles, middle of bloody nowhere. However some utterly pathetic council gimp clearly decided 50 would be an appropriate limit. I am glad he is not in charge of the M25 as he would no doubt make it a 30 limit.
jdw1234 said:
I thought rather than for the safety of the workers it was because the hard shoulder is normally out of action or lanes reduced. 50mph is the speed at which crash levels are lowest so least likely to result in obstructions to flow.
That doesn't make much sense since there are many dual carriageways that are NSL and don't have hard shoulders. There are also many single carriageway NSL's without hard shoulders too.It was originally intended to protect workers.
The constant reduction is speed limits is becoming a total joke. A battle that the driver will not win.
i've not read the entire thread so apologies if this has been suggested, but considering they fixed the bug (logic error) in the software for the ASC's so that changing lanes would not get you a ticket.
Can the software not be updated so that people who drive in a lane when the one to the left of them is empty get a ticket as well.
personally i think traffic would flow far more efficiently if idiots like my mate who sits in the middle lane in his pick-up get a ticket. they are meant to be cracking down on it anyway.
it may make poor lane discipline frowned on as much as excess and inappropriate speed.
Can the software not be updated so that people who drive in a lane when the one to the left of them is empty get a ticket as well.
personally i think traffic would flow far more efficiently if idiots like my mate who sits in the middle lane in his pick-up get a ticket. they are meant to be cracking down on it anyway.
it may make poor lane discipline frowned on as much as excess and inappropriate speed.
Blakewater said:
There's always aggression and tailgating through average speed camera sections with people vying over how accurate their speedometers are and how fast and loose they want to play with the amount of leeway the cameras give. It hardly makes for safe and relaxed motoring and there are usually high levels of collisions in average speed camera roadworks sections on motorways.
Indeed. It seems stupid to me. Here's an are of the motorway where the lanes are narrow, the hard shoulder may not be accessible, and there's men working in close proximity to the carriageway.So let's introduce a system which makes drivers spend more time concentrating on their speedometer than on looking at the road
Blakewater said:
All speed cameras do is catch out the unaware and whilst lack of awareness is a problem it isn't speed cameras people should be looking out for, it's actual hazards.
This was the point Paul Smith of Safespeed based his entire campaign on. He was in the process of collecting empirical evidence that the placing of speed cameras often increased the number of accidents in an area when he died.His theories were rubbished by the authorities and speed-zealot pressure groups such as Brake because official stats always showed reductions in 'KSI' accidents following the placement of speed cameras as the figures were biased due to regression toward the mean statistical errors. One study carried out on fixed speed camera use in roadworks on motorways was conducted correctly and proved Paul's theory, but the authorities' response was to use average speed cameras instead.
Traveling up the A1 recently I went through the leaming bar(sp?) works, miles of 50 with no one doing anything and nothing but cones at the side, everyone just merrily speeding through at 70. I'm quite happy doing 50 or whatever is required through road works, people need to do their jobs in safety etc etc. However peoples willingness to follow the rules is taxed when we see miles of nothing happening and half the traffic ignoring the speed limit. This devalues peoples belief that a limit is required and diminishes any speed limits effect anywhere as people don't trust the right decision was made. We'd all be happy traveling at 40 through road works if we saw people out/machines parked up in the evenings etc but 50% of road works aren't being worked on for weeks on end. Use the limits where needed and people will be more inclined to follow them!
Further down the A1 (north of Peterborough) There was for over a year a small damaged section of barrier which had 50 signs either side presumably as nobody could afford/be bothered to fix the damage. Locals would ignore it (no cameras and it was there for what felt like 2 years) anyone else would brake to follow the signs, then speed up in 1/2 a mile looking slightly confused as they couldn't see what was wrong. Pointless!
Further down the A1 (north of Peterborough) There was for over a year a small damaged section of barrier which had 50 signs either side presumably as nobody could afford/be bothered to fix the damage. Locals would ignore it (no cameras and it was there for what felt like 2 years) anyone else would brake to follow the signs, then speed up in 1/2 a mile looking slightly confused as they couldn't see what was wrong. Pointless!
I have a theory - people do not care about what is legal and illegal, they only care about what they're likely to be punished for doing wrong.
If you make a law and don't enforce it properly, many people will break it. If you only enforce it in a haphazard fashion, people who get caught will be angry when they get caught because they've been doing it for ages/everyone else does it - it's unfair - it's a 'tax' they will say.
Speeding is interesting, therefore, because it was haphazardly enforced for decades before a rally driver (Mr Gatsonidies?) invented a camera to help him drive faster and now we have those everywhere, enforcing that particular law much more widely and uniformly.
People are still angry tho - which suggests the problem isn't down to the enforcement but that the law is wrong in the first place!?
The problem isn't the cameras but the limits which the cameras are enforcing. I have no problem with people being caught driving at unsuitable speed and camera do that well. The issue is setting the speeds we're monitoring for because if lots of people are being caught and yet we're not piling up corpses on every road, the limits are surely wrong??
Cameras are, of course, the thin-end of a wedge which will grow into your car tracking every aspect of your driving and that being used to punish you for all manner of indiscretions. Maybe instead of moaning about the cameras we need to sort-out the whole issue of speed limits and 'safe speed' - that is the agenda I think we should be pushing here.
It will also confuse those who see cameras purely as a revenue source because they'll have to actually justify the basis of their income rather than just assuming they're right and banking the cash?
p.s. there are rules on how speed limits should be set, anyone can challenge a speed limit - I know this because I've done it, successfully, in the past - you can do this whether you've been caught speeding or not and it's those rules we need to be getting a look at, improving etc.
If you make a law and don't enforce it properly, many people will break it. If you only enforce it in a haphazard fashion, people who get caught will be angry when they get caught because they've been doing it for ages/everyone else does it - it's unfair - it's a 'tax' they will say.
Speeding is interesting, therefore, because it was haphazardly enforced for decades before a rally driver (Mr Gatsonidies?) invented a camera to help him drive faster and now we have those everywhere, enforcing that particular law much more widely and uniformly.
People are still angry tho - which suggests the problem isn't down to the enforcement but that the law is wrong in the first place!?
The problem isn't the cameras but the limits which the cameras are enforcing. I have no problem with people being caught driving at unsuitable speed and camera do that well. The issue is setting the speeds we're monitoring for because if lots of people are being caught and yet we're not piling up corpses on every road, the limits are surely wrong??
Cameras are, of course, the thin-end of a wedge which will grow into your car tracking every aspect of your driving and that being used to punish you for all manner of indiscretions. Maybe instead of moaning about the cameras we need to sort-out the whole issue of speed limits and 'safe speed' - that is the agenda I think we should be pushing here.
It will also confuse those who see cameras purely as a revenue source because they'll have to actually justify the basis of their income rather than just assuming they're right and banking the cash?
p.s. there are rules on how speed limits should be set, anyone can challenge a speed limit - I know this because I've done it, successfully, in the past - you can do this whether you've been caught speeding or not and it's those rules we need to be getting a look at, improving etc.
Edited by 405dogvan on Monday 20th October 11:30
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