GM bullying Tesla

[kambites]

Richyboy said:

Why do these old companies expect government to step in and help them out? Not exactly a free market.

The US has never been a remotely free market and to be fair, I don't think it's ever really claimed to be. It's always been an economy based around who's willing to (and can afford to) pay the biggest bribes, in one way or another.

[bodhi]

Swanny87 said:

This. With the exception of the latest generation Corvette, the new Cadillac models and the latest Astra VXR; GM make some utterly shocking cars, that I'm surprised have been allowed to be put on the road. The nub of this litigation against direct sales is just jealously. Jealousy that Tesla can make a viable electric car where GM failed quite badly. I must have seen about 1 or 2 of those Amperas on the road in the last few years, yet in the last few weeks I have seen about twice the amount of the Tesla Model S.

And lets just remember that if it wasn't for a massive bailout by the US government, GM would not exist today.

That works both ways however, Tesla probably wouldn't be where they are today without massive subsidies they received for making a supposedly "Green" car. Not saying GM's behaviour isn't fairly disgusting (if not entirely unpredictable), however they aren't the only ones using Government money. If GM were to spin off Corvette into it's own company, then slowly disappear from the automotive landscape, I doubt anyone would miss them too much.

Can't see Tesla being the only automotive maker left worldwide (and I bloody hope not, as I have no interest in their product whatsoever), and the Japanese and the Germans seem to have plenty of ideas in how to move forwards - the other US Companies (and PSA for that matter), I'm not so sure about.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Tesla trying to build there own network of temples to worship at like apple has lol


I do not like a sales model where you have no scope to negotiate or change dealers if one gives poor service

[kambites]

bodhi said:

That works both ways however, Tesla probably wouldn't be where they are today without massive subsidies they received for making a supposedly "Green" car.

I'd imagine they're far smaller than the ones companies like GM have received simply for being big and American. I don't think any of the big US car companies would have survived without financial intervention from the government at one time or another.

Personally, I rather like the idea of being able to buy straight from the manufacturer, although I suppose it would be good to be given both options.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 22 October 11:12

[V8 FOU]

GM are broke. Losing millions by the month.

Anyone remember Tucker? Bullied out of business by GM, Ford etc?

Anyway, exactly how are Tesla going to "harm" GM? Selling cars in dozens - will that really affect GM's decline and fall?

Not really going to affect local businees much either. Perhaps Tesla could appoint some service centres?

[ZesPak]

Dave Hedgehog said:

I do not like a sales model where you have no scope to negotiate or change dealers if one gives poor service

Really?
Customer support will be consistent at least. No blaming the dealer, not back and forth. If customer support is bad, go to another brand.

[burwoodman]

k-ink said:

Tesla may have the private car industry to themselves in a couple of decades. Assuming they continue as they have done. Whilst GM will probably be dead and buried. It is probably just an attempt to delay the inevitable.

I'd agree if not for the simple fact that GM/Ford will acquire the technology legally or otherwise and the US courts will protect them on the basis that they can't lose 5M jobs or whatever the staggering figs are. If you look back in history, even Henry Ford tried to patent all cars. Inventors of amazing products get ripped off, the Koreans (samsung) being the biggest corporate crook around. Steal it first and go to court for 20 years arguing the toss.

[Swanny87]

bodhi said:

That works both ways however, Tesla probably wouldn't be where they are today without massive subsidies they received for making a supposedly "Green" car. Not saying GM's behaviour isn't fairly disgusting (if not entirely unpredictable), however they aren't the only ones using Government money. If GM were to spin off Corvette into it's own company, then slowly disappear from the automotive landscape, I doubt anyone would miss them too much.

Can't see Tesla being the only automotive maker left worldwide (and I bloody hope not, as I have no interest in their product whatsoever), and the Japanese and the Germans seem to have plenty of ideas in how to move forwards - the other US Companies (and PSA for that matter), I'm not so sure about.

You make a fair point there but am I right in thinking that Tesla have paid off most if not all of the debt they owed after subsidies?

Link

[London424]

V8 FOU said:

GM are broke. Losing millions by the month.

Anyone remember Tucker? Bullied out of business by GM, Ford etc?

Anyway, exactly how are Tesla going to "harm" GM? Selling cars in dozens - will that really affect GM's decline and fall?

Not really going to affect local businees much either. Perhaps Tesla could appoint some service centres?

They sell a lot more than you think...and for a company offering a 100k car is clearly worrying for the GM's of the world once they introduce their 30-50k offering in a couple/few years time.

[bodhi]

Swanny87 said:

You make a fair point there but am I right in thinking that Tesla have paid off most if not all of the debt they owed after subsidies?

Link

I wasn't thinking about the loan, more the carbon credits and other money for old rope they sell in addition to the cars. It was discussed in the last Tesla thread we had, admittedly I lost the will to live after the 17th spreadsheet induced hypegasm so may have misread, but I certainly recall some sort of Green Gravy train nonsense in their funding.

[Sheepshanks]

ZesPak said:

Really?
Customer support will be consistent at least. No blaming the dealer, not back and forth. If customer support is bad, go to another brand.

It's not with Apple, which Tesla's model is often compared to.

[ZesPak]

Sheepshanks said:

ZesPak said:

Really?
Customer support will be consistent at least. No blaming the dealer, not back and forth. If customer support is bad, go to another brand.

It's not with Apple, which Tesla's model is often compared to.

In the end you're still dealing with people. But I really don't see the benefit of adding an extra layer here?
Anyway, a company should have the choice to do it or not.

[otolith]

V8 FOU said:

Anyway, exactly how are Tesla going to "harm" GM? Selling cars in dozens - will that really affect GM's decline and fall?

They sold ~ 2,650 Model S cars in 2012. ~ 22,500 in 2013. ~14,000 in the first half of 2014. Those are small numbers compared to Cadillac sales, but they aren't insignificant numbers and they are growing.

[London424]

otolith said:

V8 FOU said:

Anyway, exactly how are Tesla going to "harm" GM? Selling cars in dozens - will that really affect GM's decline and fall?

They sold ~ 2,650 Model S cars in 2012. ~ 22,500 in 2013. ~14,000 in the first half of 2014. Those are small numbers compared to Cadillac sales, but they aren't insignificant numbers and they are growing.

And that's for a 100k car...if I remember, that's more than the comparable BMW/Merc/Audi, so pretty good going.

[ZesPak]

London424 said:

And that's for a 100k car...if I remember, that's more than the comparable BMW/Merc/Audi, so pretty good going.

But remember, people (companies) often can buy this because of it's "green" credentials. If the state changes these regulations, the tide might turn quickly.
I did the calculation over here, if you want a very decent E-class at 70k €, you might as well get a 100k € Tesla S in terms of taxes.

[Dave Hedgehog]

ZesPak said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

I do not like a sales model where you have no scope to negotiate or change dealers if one gives poor service

Really?
Customer support will be consistent at least. No blaming the dealer, not back and forth. If customer support is bad, go to another brand.

large cooperation's rarely give good support, your a meaningless number to them

i could write a book on the appalling service i have had from many of the major uk suppliers, at least with a small(ish) franchise you can work up a good relationship where they know who you are and you know who ultimately has the power to resolve problems

[Monty Python]

America - land of the free....unless you're Tesla.

[RobinBanks]

These laws are in place to ensure that people can set up their own businesses as dealers. It's to stop companies from having monopolies on the sale of their cars to consumers.
To allow haggling etc. There are numerous reasons why. In other words - to try to ensure a free market.

But still GM is portrayed as evil because they're opposed to Tesla doing it....

[Dave Hedgehog]

RobinBanks said:

These laws are in place to ensure that people can set up their own businesses as dealers. It's to stop companies from having monopolies on the sale of their cars to consumers.
To allow haggling etc. There are numerous reasons why. In other words - to try to ensure a free market.

But still GM is portrayed as evil because they're opposed to Tesla doing it....

i think this is one of the reasons that a franchise in the US can have a dealership for every brand

[StottyEvo]

Dave Hedgehog said:

Tesla trying to build there own network of temples to worship at like apple has lol


I do not like a sales model where you have no scope to negotiate or change dealers if one gives poor service

I don't like this model for the same reasons as you. Although results speak volumes, Apple have a brilliant product that can't be customised... but it doesn't break, it works very consistently. Also their customer services is brilliant.

In theory it stinks but in practice it works.