RE: Nissan GT-R MY14: Review
Discussion
markcoznottz said:
These arguments always fall back on the nonsensical logic that although the more powerful vehicle has to back off in such conditions the slower car somehow miraculously doesn't? Across a variety of roads the faster car will be, well, faster.
Except for the fact that drivetrain plays a major role in one's ability to exploit the power in slippery conditions. The GT-R's handling in the wet is basically that of a RWD car. Most people on a bumpy wet road will be just as quick if not quicker in a 250 bhp FWD hatch than a 500-600 bhp RWD.I’ll shut up from here on, lest I become one of those forum bores that just has to respond to every opposing opinion.
Dagnut said:
plenty said:
burwoodman said:
The GTR would murder any BMW in any conditions.
As my earlier post describes, that's simply not true. My opinion is based not on conjecture but on thousands of miles driven in convoy alongside GT-Rs and an array of other machinery. On a wet B-road strewn with leaves you simply cannot use anywhere close to full throttle on the R35.So now we need to take testimony from people who've not driven the car, not been a passenger in the car ,but have "observed" the car..this place just gets better and better
markcoznottz said:
These arguments always fall back on the nonsensical logic that although the more powerful vehicle has to back off in such conditions the slower car somehow miraculously doesn't? Across a variety of roads the faster car will be, well, faster.
Yep very true. The first time I drove the GTR was on a B road, and while it's now not my cup of tea, it was absolutely ridulously fast and very confidence inspiring and only really backing off due to lack of vision. The size only becomes an issue on the single track roads or where you likely meet the locals on foot, horse or bike.For those who believe that their 1.2 nova can keep up with the likes of a GTR, evo or turbo s that been driven hard on a B road designed for two way traffic, we will have to agree to disagree.
plenty said:
markcoznottz said:
These arguments always fall back on the nonsensical logic that although the more powerful vehicle has to back off in such conditions the slower car somehow miraculously doesn't? Across a variety of roads the faster car will be, well, faster.
Except for the fact that drivetrain plays a major role in one's ability to exploit the power in slippery conditions. The GT-R's handling in the wet is basically that of a RWD car. Most people on a bumpy wet road will be just as quick if not quicker in a 250 bhp FWD hatch than a 500-600 bhp RWD.I’ll shut up from here on, lest I become one of those forum bores that just has to respond to every opposing opinion.
Sadly, the GT-R will always attract the bold statements about its handling from those who have never driven one. Even this thread began with the standard Playstation/uninvolving handling assumptions, and now it's morphed into the car being as lairy as a 600bhp RWD car and slower than a Range Rover in the wet as its so hard to control. What will it be next week?
928S4Legend said:
Is RoverP6B 300bhp/ton in a frock?
No. I have never owned a crap 90s Mustang.samvia said:
One question - have you ever sat in or driven a GT-R? I cannot for the life of me imagine a road (i.e. something with at least some tarmac on it) in the UK that a Range Rover would cover more quickly than a GT-R, drivers being equal. You haven't cornered the market on crap B-roads in your area, we have plenty around here and a local (very rough) one used to be where I would take people to show how capable the GT-R is. One in particular has a blind sharp drop which bottoms out and upsets just about anything I've tried, but the GT-R (in Comfort) could handle it at frankly ridiculous speeds in total control.
Haven't been in one, though I've got up close to a few (enough to reckon the interior looks horrible), it's watching how they behave on the road that is informative. One of these local roads here is well-known to some PHers as it's the road to Headley Court - an absolute b
d of a road if ever there was one. J4CKO said:
Which Evo can you keep up with in a BMW 535i estate ?
I tried following my mates Evo TME in my Saab 9-3 Aero down Cheshire lanes, he just dissapeared from view, they were designed for rallying so they arent out of their depth on poor roads in adverse conditions, they are in their element, have seen him hunt down a Bentley Continental GT which was like a podgy Labrador trying to outrun a terrier, needed a decent straight A road to pull any distance.
Saying a GTR is struggling in the same circumstances is all relative, a GTR out of its comfort zone is still faster than most cars, to be honest in a 535i I wouldn't go picking on 350Z's never mind GTR's.
There's no such thing as a 535i estate - the 3.5 was only offered in the saloon. Anyway, I've chased a variety of Evos of various generations and they just don't seem that quick or composed - maybe it's down to the driver, but they too seem to hop and skip around quite a bit, lots of small steering adjustments to make - the 535i is rapid but also very smooth, I can pick a line into a corner and stick to it, the chassis then soaks up whatever it encounters. Certainly much more capable than a 350Z. While there's much to admire about Saabs, the 9-3 was still essentially a Vectra chassis - nowhere near BMW league dynamically. I see the Evo TME is a limited run JDM only special edition - I wonder how much that differs from a standard British market Evo VI (and later variants).I tried following my mates Evo TME in my Saab 9-3 Aero down Cheshire lanes, he just dissapeared from view, they were designed for rallying so they arent out of their depth on poor roads in adverse conditions, they are in their element, have seen him hunt down a Bentley Continental GT which was like a podgy Labrador trying to outrun a terrier, needed a decent straight A road to pull any distance.
Saying a GTR is struggling in the same circumstances is all relative, a GTR out of its comfort zone is still faster than most cars, to be honest in a 535i I wouldn't go picking on 350Z's never mind GTR's.
burwoodman said:
Amusing post by Rover. What he is saying, is, take a worst road in Britain, pot holes 10 feet deep, 8 feet wide lanes with a million feet drop into a slurry of white hot lava on either side-and you know what, the GTR won't be any faster than a lada. The GTR would murder any BMW in any conditions. It's a bit chav for my liking due to the terrible interior. Immense respect for them though
That's nothing like what I said. While I do regularly traverse what are, in my considered opinion, some of the worst B-roads in Britain, I wouldn't have said they're unrepresentative. However, show the GTR a half decent A-road and it'd disappear, no question. The problem with it has always been a lack of compliance and a lack of suspension travel, which ultimately hampers traction. If Nissan and/or Litchfield have done something to resolve some of that, great.liner33 said:
You live in Surrey mate not Ukraine, I know about racehorses I live near Lambourn!
Wouldn't be surprised if the roads in Ukraine are better than here! No other county in England has such appallingly badly-maintained roads, nor does any other county pay its head of highways such huge bonuses for operating his department at such a huge surplus. Whenever I leave Surrey, the county border always comes as a welcome relief.markcoznottz said:
These arguments always fall back on the nonsensical logic that although the more powerful vehicle has to back off in such conditions the slower car somehow miraculously doesn't? Across a variety of roads the faster car will be, well, faster.
Faster isn't just power or tyre contact area. Faster is the ability to put the power down - which is where a softer-sprung chassis with greater suspension travel really comes into its own. Probably the fastest car for my local B-roads would be something like a Porsche Macan Turbo, assuming Porsche haven't Audified the ride...And you know what? I don't give a toss what GT-R fanboys say, when it comes down to being an involving driver's car, all that dual-clutch this G-meter that is stuff that belongs in Gran Turismo, not the real world.
[quote=Andreas Preuninger, Manager of Porsche High Performance Cars]Grandmas can use paddles! They aren't challenging!
That said, the first car I drove after learning the rudiments on my dad's Humber Sceptre was a Lagonda M45 (I shudder to think how much that car must be worth now!), with no syncromesh (it had an epicyclic preselector gearbox, containing straight-cut gears, which howled magnificently under load), no power steering, no servo assistance to the brakes or clutch, and a great big fly-off handbrake on the outside of the car. Ignition timing was controlled by means of an advance/retard lever on the huge steering wheel. The engine was agricultural in the extreme - I think it actually was a Meadows tractor engine - and redlined at 2500rpm if memory serves, but it made huge torque, which meant that it was not difficult to spin up those tall, narrow rear crossplies. It was slow, heavy, required a lot of brute force, a lot of forward thinking and was very difficult to stop, but it felt so damn good to get it right. If I'd failed, the consequences would have been expensive at best. To all the GT-R guys - go and get some experience, if you haven't already, on pre-WW2 cars. You'll find it enlightening, thrilling and it'll make you a better driver in everything you drive.
You're not of this planet, are you? You are aware that E46 M3s come with traction control, ABS and, God forbid, a Sport button? Not to mention a huge chunk of them having paddles from the factory...
d of a road if ever there was one. There's our answer.
RoverP6B said:
samvia said:
One question - have you ever sat in or driven a GT-R? I cannot for the life of me imagine a road (i.e. something with at least some tarmac on it) in the UK that a Range Rover would cover more quickly than a GT-R, drivers being equal. You haven't cornered the market on crap B-roads in your area, we have plenty around here and a local (very rough) one used to be where I would take people to show how capable the GT-R is. One in particular has a blind sharp drop which bottoms out and upsets just about anything I've tried, but the GT-R (in Comfort) could handle it at frankly ridiculous speeds in total control.
Haven't been in one, though I've got up close to a few (enough to reckon the interior looks horrible), it's watching how they behave on the road that is informative. One of these local roads here is well-known to some PHers as it's the road to Headley Court - an absolute bd of a road if ever there was one. Edited by samvia on Wednesday 5th November 10:32
if it's a poorly managed road local knowledge is about 99% of the pace you can maintain.
I think he's waiting for us to say" you must be an amazing driver"..because no one with any experience of any model of EVO would claim a 535i is a quicker car..anywhere! On a b road even a E39 M5 would be left for dead.
I think he's waiting for us to say" you must be an amazing driver"..because no one with any experience of any model of EVO would claim a 535i is a quicker car..anywhere! On a b road even a E39 M5 would be left for dead.
samvia said:
There's our answer.
Watching a car's behaviour from behind can tell one rather more than the extremely numb controls of most modern performance cars...liner33 said:
There was no standard british market Evo 6 !
The 535i has 232hp* and weighs 1700+kgs , rapid it is NOT!
242bhp actually, and 260ftlb. 0-60 is sub 7 secs (and traction limited at that) but it's how it pulls past 100mph that is really impressive. As for losing 4hp a year - what utter bullsThe 535i has 232hp* and weighs 1700+kgs , rapid it is NOT!
- When new and as cars lose on average 4hp a year yours is likely to be 68hp down so about 165hp, so about the same as a VAG diesel
t. Comparing what I'm getting out of it with the book figures, I'd actually say BMW's claims are a tad conservative. It's certainly not down on power at all.As for the Evo 6, I've seen loads of them around, so rather presumed they were imported. When did Mitsubishi UK start offering the Evo officially?
Dagnut said:
if it's a poorly managed road local knowledge is about 99% of the pace you can maintain.
I think he's waiting for us to say" you must be an amazing driver"..because no one with any experience of any model of EVO would claim a 535i is a quicker car..anywhere! On a b road even a E39 M5 would be left for dead.
It may be that familiarity does help. I'm not seeking adulation by any means. I'm sure any driver with my level of familiarity with both the car and the road would be able to be at least as quick. Considering my 535i is down only 34hp on the Evo and has a superior chassis, it is entirely unsurprising to me that it should be able to keep pace. As for Evo vs M5 - 276bhp Evo vs 400bhp M5 - plus the superior E39 chassis... forget it! The Evo won't see which way the M5 went. You'd need an Evo X FQ400 to keep up at all.I think he's waiting for us to say" you must be an amazing driver"..because no one with any experience of any model of EVO would claim a 535i is a quicker car..anywhere! On a b road even a E39 M5 would be left for dead.
samvia said:
You're not of this planet, are you? You are aware that E46 M3s come with traction control, ABS and, God forbid, a Sport button? Not to mention a huge chunk of them having paddles from the factory...
Wasn't aware of the Sport button. SMG only came on the CSL as far as I'm aware - I've never seen it on an ordinary M3. I'm aware they have TC and ABS. Thankfully, BMW's traction control of that era is pretty dim-witted and easily disabled. ABS I can live with, I just miss doing my own cadence braking. Didn't see a Sport button in the E46 M3 I got the odd lift from my local BMW dealership in some years ago. However, if I had the cash, I'd walk straight past the E46 to a 3.0 CS of the early 1970s... that first generation of the Neue Klasse BMWs remains, for me, BMW design at its purest, boldest and most imaginative. Bangle, Van Hooydonk, eat yer heart out.Your 535i isn't traction limited, unless you've got st tyres on it.
And to the person who said cars lose 4bhp per year is talking absolute st. I know a fair few people who have had cars dyno tested and they're often MORE powerful than standard after years of service. Very rarely are they significantly lower than standard.
t tyres on it. And to the person who said cars lose 4bhp per year is talking absolute s
t. I know a fair few people who have had cars dyno tested and they're often MORE powerful than standard after years of service. Very rarely are they significantly lower than standard. RoverP6B said:
It may be that familiarity does help. I'm not seeking adulation by any means. I'm sure any driver with my level of familiarity with both the car and the road would be able to be at least as quick. Considering my 535i is down only 34hp on the Evo and has a superior chassis, it is entirely unsurprising to me that it should be able to keep pace. As for Evo vs M5 - 276bhp Evo vs 400bhp M5 - plus the superior E39 chassis... forget it! The Evo won't see which way the M5 went. You'd need an Evo X FQ400 to keep up at all.
Perhaps I'm not a brilliant driver, but I've had both an E39 M5 and a 310 bhp Evo IV and the Evo was significantly easier for me to drive quickly over a bumpy b-road, particularly a damp one. The roads near me are particularly poor and I admit to being impressed with how well the M5 handled such surfaces, but ultimately it was far easier to get the power down in the Evo. Once you factor in weight (the difference between the two is substantial) and the size of the M5, there for me wasn't much contest. You're very lucky - just happening to be there at the exact moment to latch onto the tails of all these wrung-out Evos and GTRs on your chosen local road. When their humiliation has worn off, I bet they can't wait to trade them in for an old BMW when you fly past with a quick wave of your string-backs.
I suspect that you'd soil yourself jumping from an old 5 Series into a GT-R and trying to drive it as hard - there is a massive difference in performance, whatever road.
I suspect that you'd soil yourself jumping from an old 5 Series into a GT-R and trying to drive it as hard - there is a massive difference in performance, whatever road.
Ok so I expect to get some differing opinions here, but what is it about the GTR interior that people think is so bad? (those that don't have one that is). It's probably the same effect that a mother thinks her butt ugly kid is beautiful but I really don't believe the GTR interior is bad at all.
It has all the toys, soft finishings on the dash (notice I didn't mention the rear), plenty of leather (albeit from a kids school satchel lol) a very data rich high res screen and satnav, all very driver accessible.
Against it's contemporaries/performance peer group here are a few to remind of the others.
..and these are a tad more expensive, but
awaits with popcorn
It has all the toys, soft finishings on the dash (notice I didn't mention the rear), plenty of leather (albeit from a kids school satchel lol) a very data rich high res screen and satnav, all very driver accessible.
Against it's contemporaries/performance peer group here are a few to remind of the others.
..and these are a tad more expensive, but
awaits with popcornEdited by OldBob on Wednesday 5th November 11:47
RoverP6B said:
It may be that familiarity does help. I'm not seeking adulation by any means. I'm sure any driver with my level of familiarity with both the car and the road would be able to be at least as quick. Considering my 535i is down only 34hp on the Evo and has a superior chassis, it is entirely unsurprising to me that it should be able to keep pace. As for Evo vs M5 - 276bhp Evo vs 400bhp M5 - plus the superior E39 chassis... forget it! The Evo won't see which way the M5 went. You'd need an Evo X FQ400 to keep up at all.
Rover, your posts are well written, articulate and well meaning. You're polite too and I think I'd get on well with you over a pint. But this is absolute nonsense!I'd bet that nn Evo 8 GSR (probably the slowest Evo ever made) with 260hp would beat an E60 M5 (the 508hp, 200mph machine) down a damp bumpy B road as you describe.
A mate of mine has owned 3 Evo's, an E60 M5 (which he liked a lot), 2 GTR's, 570hp Subaru, Lotus Exige S, Focus RS mk2 amongst other performance cars. He'd tell you undoubtedly that the Evo would be quicker, even with such a huge power deficiency.
Any more popcorn?I may be missing the point of Rovers argument............
If I had my pride and joy.....for the sake of the argument a GTR………. would I seriously think of pushing on hard down a road that is obviously uneven, has odd cambers, is full of pot holes, hedge lined with limited visibility and to top it off is damp and maybe covered in mud from the tractors that regularly use them?
Not a chance. It’s just asking for an accident or at the very least a blown tyre, a broken wheel or broken suspension.
So when Mr Rover is hooning along hanging on to the tail-lights of my GTR thinking is the Stig because he can keep up, please consider that I maybe just tootling along in an effort to avoid hedge surfing in my pride and joy.
If I had my pride and joy.....for the sake of the argument a GTR………. would I seriously think of pushing on hard down a road that is obviously uneven, has odd cambers, is full of pot holes, hedge lined with limited visibility and to top it off is damp and maybe covered in mud from the tractors that regularly use them?
Not a chance. It’s just asking for an accident or at the very least a blown tyre, a broken wheel or broken suspension.
So when Mr Rover is hooning along hanging on to the tail-lights of my GTR thinking is the Stig because he can keep up, please consider that I maybe just tootling along in an effort to avoid hedge surfing in my pride and joy.
E39 "Much More capable" than a 350Z ? driven both and the E39 is very good for a large saloon, but it isn't night and day more capable than a 350Z, certainly the cooking models arent, never had the pleasure of an M5, suppose it depends what you mean by capable ?
I think you really need a go in an Evo, driven by someone who knows what they are doing with one, down a country road, I have seen grown men reduced to shaking wrecks, my colleague with one used to specialise in terrifying American visitors not used to Evos, narrow roads, corners, roundabouts etc.
Other stuff has caught up now in terms of straight line speed, and a Golf R is probably a match for it in cross country pace, maybe even faster but make no mistake, they are still massively capable, I am not sure how a 1700 kilo car with 240 ish bhp would get near something with two extra driven wheels, another 60 bhp, Active Yaw Control, half a tonne less weight and a vastly more sporting bias.
I think you really need a go in an Evo, driven by someone who knows what they are doing with one, down a country road, I have seen grown men reduced to shaking wrecks, my colleague with one used to specialise in terrifying American visitors not used to Evos, narrow roads, corners, roundabouts etc.
Other stuff has caught up now in terms of straight line speed, and a Golf R is probably a match for it in cross country pace, maybe even faster but make no mistake, they are still massively capable, I am not sure how a 1700 kilo car with 240 ish bhp would get near something with two extra driven wheels, another 60 bhp, Active Yaw Control, half a tonne less weight and a vastly more sporting bias.
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