Do folk really perceive RWD to be dangerous?

Do folk really perceive RWD to be dangerous?

Author
Discussion

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Even Premium performance cars on ditch finders or tyres that are unsuitable for inclement weather can handle badly, so a shopping car on barely legal, incorrectly inflated, unbalanced tyres with dodgy tracking and geometry can be absolutely awful.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Yes, it's an "all other things being equal" observation.

cologne2792

2,126 posts

125 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
This has to be inspired by age perception.

For anyone that started driving before the mid-eighties RWD was practically the only way to go. If you're raised on MK1&2 Escorts, Capris, Granadas, Sierras and the like then No - RWD is just RWD. You learned to drive to the limits of the car or you would probably end up going backwards through a hedge whilst on fire. No driver aids, mostly no power steering and certainly no ABS. If having fun you adjust your cornering radius with a combination of steering and right foot - this isn't Rallying Technique just a normal day out in the South West.
Post 85 the digital revolution progressed with a vengeance! The Scorpio arrived with a world first - ABS as standard across the range. Then by about 92 almost everything domestic became FWD - then EBD, Traction Control etc.
Without deriding the incredible technological and safety advancements made in the last 20 years I question whether anyone raised solely on modern FWD actually knows how to 'drive' ?
Caterham's should be made a compulsory part of all new driver instruction !

Edited by cologne2792 on Thursday 23 October 17:16

zebra

4,555 posts

213 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Of course RWD is dangerous; I have died every time I have ventured out in my numerous BMW's and Lotus's, especially in the winter where I die several times a day even just opening the car door.

Crap drivers cannot drive front or rear drive, full stop.

ps. We have done this topic to death several times a year since I joined PH.


The GMan

2,508 posts

254 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
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No.

Dave Hedgehog

14,541 posts

203 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
someone go total up the drive train configurations in the PH owners crashed cars threads

i bet its something like

RWD - 200
FWD - 70
4WD - 5


SonicShadow

2,452 posts

153 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
otolith said:
Yes, it's an "all other things being equal" observation.
I get that, but all other things are hardly ever equal.

cologne2792

2,126 posts

125 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Dave Hedgehog said:
someone go total up the drive train configurations in the PH owners crashed cars threads

i bet its something like

RWD - 200
FWD - 70
4WD - 5
Perhaps Piston Heads, by it's very definition, attracts more owners of RWD cars...

thegreenhell

15,115 posts

218 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Is this subject a cross-post from Mumsnet?

Surely it's people that are dangerous, not the cars. No car has ever jumped up and bitten anybody or run them over, or crashed into a tree of its own accord. Sh!t only happens when a person gets behind the controls.

Cars are big, heavy, powerful objects that require a combination of skill, training and experience to control properly in all situations. Sadly there are two things in life that most people think they can automatically do well without any proper training, and one of them is driving. Therefore blame for anything that goes wrong is usually assigned to something else, either another person or the tool we were using to do the job.

Debaser

5,665 posts

260 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
unpc said:
Baryonyx said:
NiceCupOfTea said:
What I've never understood:

E36 compact and z3 roadster - crap handling and rear suspension
E30 - excellent fun tail out handling

Same rear end isn't it?
That is a good point. I've always thought the snide remarks directed at the Z3's rear suspension were a bit iffy considering the E30 is a reasonable handler and the Z3 was never meant to handle with the finesse of a Boxster or whatever (it was conceived as a GT for the US market IIRC).

Did the Z3 also have a slightly wider rear track and tyres?
Dunno where this myth came from. I had an E30 325i back in the day and it handled quite badly on the limit and was quite unpredictable. A mate's E30 M3 that I drove many thousands of miles in, was sublime. There was nothing wrong with the geometry of my car but fundamentally cooking E30s were pretty rubbish. I guess the more limited wheel travel of the M3 helped reduce the camber change.
I've driven plenty of standard E30s and they handled brilliantly, were very predictable and really easy to drive at the limit.

Lots of body roll by modern standards though.

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
cologne2792 said:
This has to be inspired by age perception.

For anyone that started driving before the mid-eighties RWD was practically the only way to go. If you're raised on MK1&2 Escorts, Capris, Granadas, Sierras and the like then No - RWD is just RWD. You learned to drive to the limits of the car or you would probably end up going backwards through a hedge whilst on fire. No driver aids, mostly no power steering and certainly no ABS. If having fun you adjust your cornering radius with a combination of steering and right foot - this isn't Rallying Technique just a normal day out in the South West.
Post 85 the digital revolution progressed with a vengeance! The Scorpio arrived with a world first - ABS as standard across the range. Then by about 92 almost everything domestic became FWD - then EBD, Traction Control etc.
Without deriding the incredible technological and safety advancements made in the last 20 years I question whether anyone raised solely on modern FWD actually knows how to 'drive' ?
Caterham's should be made a compulsory part of all new driver instruction !

Edited by cologne2792 on Thursday 23 October 17:16
It probably isn't as simple as that.Even in the 1970's we had the choice of FWD cars in the form of most of the Austin Morris products and a few foreign efforts like Audi and SAAB etc.

The difference seems to be in a gradual increasing acceptance in all market sectors of the inherent flaws in the idea of putting the power through the same wheels that are doing the steering.Unlike in the day where those flaws were well understood and rejected by anyone who bought a car with the priority on performance.

As for now in a strictly enforced low speed regime where lower power and much smaller throttle inputs are used accordingly those flaws are probably less of an issue than they were then.Together with the added price premium which took place with the loss of the affordable RWD sector from Ford,Rover,Triumph and used Jaguars and massive insurance costs for young divers,and higher fuel costs

In general,given the much more relaxed speed regime of the 1970's/early 80's,in which more power was used as a matter of course then those flaws of torque steer,loss of traction caused by rearward weight transfer,power understeer and loss of steering at or above the limits of traction were something that most buyers in the performance sector either rejected from day 1 of getting their licence or very soon after.

Therefore I'd guess that assuming we had a more relaxed 1970's/80's type speed regime and cost environment,in which something like a VXR8 could be bought and run on an average young person's wage I'd doubt if we'd be having this continuous discussion on PH.

IE it seems to be a matter of the times we live in regarding not enough power being usable on a regular enough basis to make the flaws in the FWD layout unacceptable and possibly a bit of ( understandable ) sour grapes on the part of younger drivers.


Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 23 October 18:33

Hasbeen

2,073 posts

220 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
MC Bodge said:
A friend of mine destroyed an S2000 (without Tc) within 2 miles of ownership. It was wet, she gave it too much welly and lost the back end pulling away from some traffic lights...

Just saying like.
Anyone who can destroy any car just pulling away from the lights, should be restricted to riding a bus for the rest of their life.

XJ Flyer

5,526 posts

129 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Hasbeen said:
MC Bodge said:
A friend of mine destroyed an S2000 (without Tc) within 2 miles of ownership. It was wet, she gave it too much welly and lost the back end pulling away from some traffic lights...

Just saying like.
Anyone who can destroy any car just pulling away from the lights, should be restricted to riding a bus for the rest of their life.
In which case the rearward weight transfer of doing same with a FWD car would have meant even more chance of losing the front end instead of the back end.If she couldn't save it in time by cutting the power and with the front wheels still able to steer she certainly wouldn't have done in the case of all the steering being lost in the case of a FWD car.

cologne2792

2,126 posts

125 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
XJ Flyer said:
It probably isn't as simple as that.Even in the 1970's we had the choice of FWD cars in the form of most of the Austin Morris products and a few foreign efforts like Audi and SAAB etc.

The difference seems to be in a gradual increasing acceptance in all market sectors of the inherent flaws in the idea of putting the power through the same wheels that are doing the steering.Unlike in the day where those flaws were well understood and rejected by anyone who bought a car with the priority on performance.

As for now in a strictly enforced low speed regime where lower power and much smaller throttle inputs are used accordingly those flaws are probably less of an issue than they were then.Together with the added price premium which took place with the loss of the affordable RWD sector from Ford,Rover,Triumph and used Jaguars and massive insurance costs for young divers,and higher fuel costs

In general,given the much more relaxed speed regime of the 1970's/early 80's,in which more power was used as a matter of course then those flaws of torque steer,power understeer and loss of steering at or above the limits of traction were something that most buyers in the performance sector either rejected from day 1 of getting their licence or very soon after.

Therefore I'd guess that assuming we had a more relaxed 1970's/80's type speed regime and cost environment,in which something like a VXR8 could be bought and run on an average young person's wage I'd doubt if we'd be having this continuous discussion on PH.

IE it seems to be a matter of the times we live in regarding not enough power being usable on a regular enough basis to make the flaws in the FWD layout unacceptable and possibly a bit of ( understandable ) sour grapes on the part of younger drivers.
Wise Words.

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
XJ Flyer said:
In which case the rearward weight transfer of doing same with a FWD car would have meant even more chance of losing the front end instead of the back end.If she couldn't save it in time by cutting the power and with the front wheels still able to steer she certainly wouldn't have done in the case of all the steering being lost in the case of a FWD car.
Yes, whatever......

mikey k

13,011 posts

215 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Hasbeen said:
MC Bodge said:
A friend of mine destroyed an S2000 (without Tc) within 2 miles of ownership. It was wet, she gave it too much welly and lost the back end pulling away from some traffic lights...

Just saying like.
Anyone who can destroy any car just pulling away from the lights, should be restricted to riding a bus for the rest of their life.
I've had 5 S2000's (including a 425BHP no TC one), 4 RWD BMW's and two V8 Vantages (current one 560 BHP)

No issues, just respect and under stand oversteer wink

aka_kerrly

12,416 posts

209 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
cologne2792 said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
someone go total up the drive train configurations in the PH owners crashed cars threads

i bet its something like

RWD - 200
FWD - 70
4WD - 5
Perhaps Piston Heads, by it's very definition, attracts more owners of RWD cars...
Not that I enjoy seeing people crash but I have watched perhaps far too many videos of the Nurburgring which feature a significant number of RWD, mostly BMWs crashing left right and centre and it's almost always a case of a slide starts to develop followed by lift off the power and over correction into the nearest armco.

Unfortunately for most people if a car feels like it's beyond your control the natural instinct is to let off/apply brakes now hold on or apply marginally more power.

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Hasbeen said:
Anyone who can destroy any car just pulling away from the lights, should be restricted to riding a bus for the rest of their life.
Haha. I have some sympathy with that view. To be fair, though, she's never destroyed any other cars.

The hairy chested chaps on here don't seem to realise that most people have no interest in driving cars that a tricky to master or take any special effort.

People learn the skills they need (or want). How many of us are accomplished horsemen and swordsman who can fight whilst mounted?

Garvin

5,157 posts

176 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
MC Bodge said:
XJ Flyer said:
In which case the rearward weight transfer of doing same with a FWD car would have meant even more chance of losing the front end instead of the back end.If she couldn't save it in time by cutting the power and with the front wheels still able to steer she certainly wouldn't have done in the case of all the steering being lost in the case of a FWD car.
Yes, whatever......
More like WTF? Coming off the throttle and cutting the power was probably the cause of her demise! Much more easily controlled in a FWD vehicle.

InductionRoar

2,001 posts

131 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
In my experience the typical person who spouts the "RWD is dangerous" mantra are also the type of person who dismiss the skills of F1 drivers as "just driving around a track". Odd.