Do folk really perceive RWD to be dangerous?
Discussion
This has to be inspired by age perception.
For anyone that started driving before the mid-eighties RWD was practically the only way to go. If you're raised on MK1&2 Escorts, Capris, Granadas, Sierras and the like then No - RWD is just RWD. You learned to drive to the limits of the car or you would probably end up going backwards through a hedge whilst on fire. No driver aids, mostly no power steering and certainly no ABS. If having fun you adjust your cornering radius with a combination of steering and right foot - this isn't Rallying Technique just a normal day out in the South West.
Post 85 the digital revolution progressed with a vengeance! The Scorpio arrived with a world first - ABS as standard across the range. Then by about 92 almost everything domestic became FWD - then EBD, Traction Control etc.
Without deriding the incredible technological and safety advancements made in the last 20 years I question whether anyone raised solely on modern FWD actually knows how to 'drive' ?
Caterham's should be made a compulsory part of all new driver instruction !
For anyone that started driving before the mid-eighties RWD was practically the only way to go. If you're raised on MK1&2 Escorts, Capris, Granadas, Sierras and the like then No - RWD is just RWD. You learned to drive to the limits of the car or you would probably end up going backwards through a hedge whilst on fire. No driver aids, mostly no power steering and certainly no ABS. If having fun you adjust your cornering radius with a combination of steering and right foot - this isn't Rallying Technique just a normal day out in the South West.
Post 85 the digital revolution progressed with a vengeance! The Scorpio arrived with a world first - ABS as standard across the range. Then by about 92 almost everything domestic became FWD - then EBD, Traction Control etc.
Without deriding the incredible technological and safety advancements made in the last 20 years I question whether anyone raised solely on modern FWD actually knows how to 'drive' ?
Caterham's should be made a compulsory part of all new driver instruction !
Edited by cologne2792 on Thursday 23 October 17:16
Of course RWD is dangerous; I have died every time I have ventured out in my numerous BMW's and Lotus's, especially in the winter where I die several times a day even just opening the car door.
Crap drivers cannot drive front or rear drive, full stop.
ps. We have done this topic to death several times a year since I joined PH.
Crap drivers cannot drive front or rear drive, full stop.
ps. We have done this topic to death several times a year since I joined PH.
Is this subject a cross-post from Mumsnet?
Surely it's people that are dangerous, not the cars. No car has ever jumped up and bitten anybody or run them over, or crashed into a tree of its own accord. Sh!t only happens when a person gets behind the controls.
Cars are big, heavy, powerful objects that require a combination of skill, training and experience to control properly in all situations. Sadly there are two things in life that most people think they can automatically do well without any proper training, and one of them is driving. Therefore blame for anything that goes wrong is usually assigned to something else, either another person or the tool we were using to do the job.
Surely it's people that are dangerous, not the cars. No car has ever jumped up and bitten anybody or run them over, or crashed into a tree of its own accord. Sh!t only happens when a person gets behind the controls.
Cars are big, heavy, powerful objects that require a combination of skill, training and experience to control properly in all situations. Sadly there are two things in life that most people think they can automatically do well without any proper training, and one of them is driving. Therefore blame for anything that goes wrong is usually assigned to something else, either another person or the tool we were using to do the job.
unpc said:
Baryonyx said:
NiceCupOfTea said:
What I've never understood:
E36 compact and z3 roadster - crap handling and rear suspension
E30 - excellent fun tail out handling
Same rear end isn't it?
That is a good point. I've always thought the snide remarks directed at the Z3's rear suspension were a bit iffy considering the E30 is a reasonable handler and the Z3 was never meant to handle with the finesse of a Boxster or whatever (it was conceived as a GT for the US market IIRC). E36 compact and z3 roadster - crap handling and rear suspension
E30 - excellent fun tail out handling
Same rear end isn't it?
Did the Z3 also have a slightly wider rear track and tyres?
Lots of body roll by modern standards though.
cologne2792 said:
This has to be inspired by age perception.
For anyone that started driving before the mid-eighties RWD was practically the only way to go. If you're raised on MK1&2 Escorts, Capris, Granadas, Sierras and the like then No - RWD is just RWD. You learned to drive to the limits of the car or you would probably end up going backwards through a hedge whilst on fire. No driver aids, mostly no power steering and certainly no ABS. If having fun you adjust your cornering radius with a combination of steering and right foot - this isn't Rallying Technique just a normal day out in the South West.
Post 85 the digital revolution progressed with a vengeance! The Scorpio arrived with a world first - ABS as standard across the range. Then by about 92 almost everything domestic became FWD - then EBD, Traction Control etc.
Without deriding the incredible technological and safety advancements made in the last 20 years I question whether anyone raised solely on modern FWD actually knows how to 'drive' ?
Caterham's should be made a compulsory part of all new driver instruction !
It probably isn't as simple as that.Even in the 1970's we had the choice of FWD cars in the form of most of the Austin Morris products and a few foreign efforts like Audi and SAAB etc.For anyone that started driving before the mid-eighties RWD was practically the only way to go. If you're raised on MK1&2 Escorts, Capris, Granadas, Sierras and the like then No - RWD is just RWD. You learned to drive to the limits of the car or you would probably end up going backwards through a hedge whilst on fire. No driver aids, mostly no power steering and certainly no ABS. If having fun you adjust your cornering radius with a combination of steering and right foot - this isn't Rallying Technique just a normal day out in the South West.
Post 85 the digital revolution progressed with a vengeance! The Scorpio arrived with a world first - ABS as standard across the range. Then by about 92 almost everything domestic became FWD - then EBD, Traction Control etc.
Without deriding the incredible technological and safety advancements made in the last 20 years I question whether anyone raised solely on modern FWD actually knows how to 'drive' ?
Caterham's should be made a compulsory part of all new driver instruction !
Edited by cologne2792 on Thursday 23 October 17:16
The difference seems to be in a gradual increasing acceptance in all market sectors of the inherent flaws in the idea of putting the power through the same wheels that are doing the steering.Unlike in the day where those flaws were well understood and rejected by anyone who bought a car with the priority on performance.
As for now in a strictly enforced low speed regime where lower power and much smaller throttle inputs are used accordingly those flaws are probably less of an issue than they were then.Together with the added price premium which took place with the loss of the affordable RWD sector from Ford,Rover,Triumph and used Jaguars and massive insurance costs for young divers,and higher fuel costs
In general,given the much more relaxed speed regime of the 1970's/early 80's,in which more power was used as a matter of course then those flaws of torque steer,loss of traction caused by rearward weight transfer,power understeer and loss of steering at or above the limits of traction were something that most buyers in the performance sector either rejected from day 1 of getting their licence or very soon after.
Therefore I'd guess that assuming we had a more relaxed 1970's/80's type speed regime and cost environment,in which something like a VXR8 could be bought and run on an average young person's wage I'd doubt if we'd be having this continuous discussion on PH.
IE it seems to be a matter of the times we live in regarding not enough power being usable on a regular enough basis to make the flaws in the FWD layout unacceptable and possibly a bit of ( understandable ) sour grapes on the part of younger drivers.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 23 October 18:33
MC Bodge said:
A friend of mine destroyed an S2000 (without Tc) within 2 miles of ownership. It was wet, she gave it too much welly and lost the back end pulling away from some traffic lights...
Just saying like.
Anyone who can destroy any car just pulling away from the lights, should be restricted to riding a bus for the rest of their life.Just saying like.
Hasbeen said:
MC Bodge said:
A friend of mine destroyed an S2000 (without Tc) within 2 miles of ownership. It was wet, she gave it too much welly and lost the back end pulling away from some traffic lights...
Just saying like.
Anyone who can destroy any car just pulling away from the lights, should be restricted to riding a bus for the rest of their life.Just saying like.
XJ Flyer said:
It probably isn't as simple as that.Even in the 1970's we had the choice of FWD cars in the form of most of the Austin Morris products and a few foreign efforts like Audi and SAAB etc.
The difference seems to be in a gradual increasing acceptance in all market sectors of the inherent flaws in the idea of putting the power through the same wheels that are doing the steering.Unlike in the day where those flaws were well understood and rejected by anyone who bought a car with the priority on performance.
As for now in a strictly enforced low speed regime where lower power and much smaller throttle inputs are used accordingly those flaws are probably less of an issue than they were then.Together with the added price premium which took place with the loss of the affordable RWD sector from Ford,Rover,Triumph and used Jaguars and massive insurance costs for young divers,and higher fuel costs
In general,given the much more relaxed speed regime of the 1970's/early 80's,in which more power was used as a matter of course then those flaws of torque steer,power understeer and loss of steering at or above the limits of traction were something that most buyers in the performance sector either rejected from day 1 of getting their licence or very soon after.
Therefore I'd guess that assuming we had a more relaxed 1970's/80's type speed regime and cost environment,in which something like a VXR8 could be bought and run on an average young person's wage I'd doubt if we'd be having this continuous discussion on PH.
IE it seems to be a matter of the times we live in regarding not enough power being usable on a regular enough basis to make the flaws in the FWD layout unacceptable and possibly a bit of ( understandable ) sour grapes on the part of younger drivers.
Wise Words.The difference seems to be in a gradual increasing acceptance in all market sectors of the inherent flaws in the idea of putting the power through the same wheels that are doing the steering.Unlike in the day where those flaws were well understood and rejected by anyone who bought a car with the priority on performance.
As for now in a strictly enforced low speed regime where lower power and much smaller throttle inputs are used accordingly those flaws are probably less of an issue than they were then.Together with the added price premium which took place with the loss of the affordable RWD sector from Ford,Rover,Triumph and used Jaguars and massive insurance costs for young divers,and higher fuel costs
In general,given the much more relaxed speed regime of the 1970's/early 80's,in which more power was used as a matter of course then those flaws of torque steer,power understeer and loss of steering at or above the limits of traction were something that most buyers in the performance sector either rejected from day 1 of getting their licence or very soon after.
Therefore I'd guess that assuming we had a more relaxed 1970's/80's type speed regime and cost environment,in which something like a VXR8 could be bought and run on an average young person's wage I'd doubt if we'd be having this continuous discussion on PH.
IE it seems to be a matter of the times we live in regarding not enough power being usable on a regular enough basis to make the flaws in the FWD layout unacceptable and possibly a bit of ( understandable ) sour grapes on the part of younger drivers.
XJ Flyer said:
In which case the rearward weight transfer of doing same with a FWD car would have meant even more chance of losing the front end instead of the back end.If she couldn't save it in time by cutting the power and with the front wheels still able to steer she certainly wouldn't have done in the case of all the steering being lost in the case of a FWD car.
Yes, whatever......Hasbeen said:
MC Bodge said:
A friend of mine destroyed an S2000 (without Tc) within 2 miles of ownership. It was wet, she gave it too much welly and lost the back end pulling away from some traffic lights...
Just saying like.
Anyone who can destroy any car just pulling away from the lights, should be restricted to riding a bus for the rest of their life.Just saying like.
No issues, just respect and under stand oversteer
cologne2792 said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
someone go total up the drive train configurations in the PH owners crashed cars threads
i bet its something like
RWD - 200
FWD - 70
4WD - 5
Perhaps Piston Heads, by it's very definition, attracts more owners of RWD cars...i bet its something like
RWD - 200
FWD - 70
4WD - 5
Unfortunately for most people if a car feels like it's beyond your control the natural instinct is to let off/apply brakes now hold on or apply marginally more power.
Hasbeen said:
Anyone who can destroy any car just pulling away from the lights, should be restricted to riding a bus for the rest of their life.
Haha. I have some sympathy with that view. To be fair, though, she's never destroyed any other cars.The hairy chested chaps on here don't seem to realise that most people have no interest in driving cars that a tricky to master or take any special effort.
People learn the skills they need (or want). How many of us are accomplished horsemen and swordsman who can fight whilst mounted?
MC Bodge said:
XJ Flyer said:
In which case the rearward weight transfer of doing same with a FWD car would have meant even more chance of losing the front end instead of the back end.If she couldn't save it in time by cutting the power and with the front wheels still able to steer she certainly wouldn't have done in the case of all the steering being lost in the case of a FWD car.
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