Do folk really perceive RWD to be dangerous?

[s m]

J4CKO said:

I remember that a few Police forces had problems when they got the BMW 325 TDS and Sierra Cosworth, in fact I seem to remember there was a death or two, people were probably used to RWD but not that big lump of tyre unsticking grunt that a turbo brings.

There was quite a bit of controversy in the press, motoring and otherwise, with a couple of police deaths and accidents about that time. Another police evaluation driver had a bad accident in a Cosworth and the inferences were that these sort of cars were becoming too fast/powerful for Joe Average to handle. The only traction control system was the driver's foot and a LSD



200bhp in 1200kg with rwd was adjudged too fast and too tricky for an affordable saloon

This happened before in Sweden in the late 70s only with 140bhp and 1200kg with rwd. The introduction of the 323i, a spate of accidents, and it was enough to ask the authorities to put pressure on BMW to suspend sales to see if there was an underlying problem.

These things tend to happen every now and then, the introduction of the Lotus Carlton in the 90s and the furore in Parliament

[XJ Flyer]

aka_kerrly said:

cologne2792 said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

someone go total up the drive train configurations in the PH owners crashed cars threads

i bet its something like

RWD - 200
FWD - 70
4WD - 5

Perhaps Piston Heads, by it's very definition, attracts more owners of RWD cars...

Not that I enjoy seeing people crash but I have watched perhaps far too many videos of the Nurburgring which feature a significant number of RWD, mostly BMWs crashing left right and centre and it's almost always a case of a slide starts to develop followed by lift off the power and over correction into the nearest armco.

Unfortunately for most people if a car feels like it's beyond your control the natural instinct is to let off/apply brakes now hold on or apply marginally more power.

In general the type of 'off' which you've described is a case of too much entry speed into a corner followed by loss of grip and a rear end slide which then finds grip before the opposite lock being used to hold it can be got rid of in time.IE the Simonsen Le Mans type crash scenario.

Not the one of a power slide or fishtailing on exit or on the straight or from rest.

The former has nothing to do with which wheels are driven while the latter does.

Cutting the power being the usual way to control the latter as opposed to probably nothing saving the former.

With the difference being that a RWD car remains steerable in the case of the latter while a FWD one doesn't.

[XJ Flyer]

Garvin said:

MC Bodge said:

XJ Flyer said:

In which case the rearward weight transfer of doing same with a FWD car would have meant even more chance of losing the front end instead of the back end.If she couldn't save it in time by cutting the power and with the front wheels still able to steer she certainly wouldn't have done in the case of all the steering being lost in the case of a FWD car.

Yes, whatever......

More like WTF? Coming off the throttle and cutting the power was probably the cause of her demise! Much more easily controlled in a FWD vehicle.

Feel free to explain the physics which your views are based on.The way I read it is that the thing lost traction on launch then started side slipping and/or fishtailing.Instead of using the steering and cutting the power she just didn't bother to steer and kept her foot in so the car slid ever further sideways under power to the point where it spun.Had that been a FWD car it just would have lost all steering control leaving just the choice of cut the power and hope as opposed to cut the power and steer.

[Hooli]

Symbolica said:

Not looking forward to any snow with RWD and an autobox though

I did two years in a XJ40 (till I crashed it for no good reason at all) in snow & the only issue I ever found with an auto in snow was stopping. Braking gently in traffic the front wheels would lock & the drive would keep the car moving as the gearbox was still transmitting it. Solved by knocking it into 'N' as the revs dropped to idle. Hardly a major issue to cope with.

[otolith]

MC Bodge said:

People learn the skills they need (or want). How many of us are accomplished horsemen and swordsman who can fight whilst mounted?

Must be someone on here who has had a really mental girlfriend

[otolith]

XJ Flyer said:

Feel free to explain the physics which your views are based on.The way I read it is that the thing lost traction on launch then started side slipping and/or fishtailing.Instead of using the steering and cutting the power she just didn't bother to steer and kept her foot in so the car slid ever further sideways under power to the point where it spun.Had that been a FWD car it just would have lost all steering control leaving just the choice of cut the power and hope as opposed to cut the power and steer.

Had it been a dragger, it would probably have just spun up a wheel and not gone anywhere quickly.

[MC Bodge]

XJ Flyer said:

Feel free to explain the physics which your views are based on.The way I read it is that the thing lost traction on launch then started side slipping and/or fishtailing.Instead of using the steering and cutting the power she just didn't bother to steer and kept her foot in so the car slid ever further sideways under power to the point where it spun.Had that been a FWD car it just would have lost all steering control leaving just the choice of cut the power and hope as opposed to cut the power and steer.

Some people will never, ever give up and you are usually one of them.....

[Garvin]

XJ Flyer said:

Garvin said:

MC Bodge said:

XJ Flyer said:

In which case the rearward weight transfer of doing same with a FWD car would have meant even more chance of losing the front end instead of the back end.If she couldn't save it in time by cutting the power and with the front wheels still able to steer she certainly wouldn't have done in the case of all the steering being lost in the case of a FWD car.

Yes, whatever......

More like WTF? Coming off the throttle and cutting the power was probably the cause of her demise! Much more easily controlled in a FWD vehicle.

Feel free to explain the physics which your views are based on.The way I read it is that the thing lost traction on launch then started side slipping and/or fishtailing.Instead of using the steering and cutting the power she just didn't bother to steer and kept her foot in so the car slid ever further sideways under power to the point where it spun.Had that been a FWD car it just would have lost all steering control leaving just the choice of cut the power and hope as opposed to cut the power and steer.

The physics are simple. When the rear starts to slide sideways the natural reaction of most inexperienced drivers is to come completely off the throttle. This results in a deceleration and rear to front weight transfer. Due to the rear going light the sideways slip increases and is difficult to catch - classic lift off oversteer. Generally though, the inexperienced driver also grabs too much opposite lock whilst coming off the throttle. This quells the initial oversteer but generates an opposite polar moment and the back end snaps back the other way and requires a very quick reversal of the steering to catch - much more difficult than the initial correction and the vehicle spins out of control.

If you watch the videos of the muppets inexperienced drivers who give their exotic machinery welly in a straight line and lose the back end, the majority over correct the slide and end up spinning in the opposite direction of the initial slide. Some even manage to quell the spin but only when they are at right angles to their intended direction and then career into the scenery where a tree*/barrier*/other vehicle* halts their progress!

*Delete as applicable

Edited by Garvin on Thursday 23 October 20:11

[HertsBiker]

The driven wheels are kind of irrelevant, apart from the fact that most people are more naturally FWD people. This is no slur on RWD, the opposite infact. Common plebs are fine with FWD, as am I in the car because I treat my car as a rain shelter for when I don't want to use my bike. In rain mode, it is fantastic not to worry about power oversteer.
On a dry road, my bike, almost any bike, is like sex on wheels. RWD, light, better feel than gossamer condom, no TC.. Wonderful. And more power than most FWD trolleys. However I love the simplicity of my Mondeo for what it is. If you have the skills, the interest, and the minerals, please try a RWD car (or bike!), they are great fun if you stay focused. If you have the attention span of a goldfish, keep driving your trolley. That is all.

[TheInternet]

XJ Flyer said:

Feel free to explain the physics which your views are based on.The way I read it is that the thing lost traction on launch then started side slipping and/or fishtailing.Instead of using the steering and cutting the power she just didn't bother to steer and kept her foot in so the car slid ever further sideways under power to the point where it spun.Had that been a FWD car it just would have lost all steering control leaving just the choice of cut the power and hope as opposed to cut the power and steer.

Mental as ever.

[e21Mark]

unpc said:

Baryonyx said:

NiceCupOfTea said:

What I've never understood:

E36 compact and z3 roadster - crap handling and rear suspension
E30 - excellent fun tail out handling

Same rear end isn't it?

That is a good point. I've always thought the snide remarks directed at the Z3's rear suspension were a bit iffy considering the E30 is a reasonable handler and the Z3 was never meant to handle with the finesse of a Boxster or whatever (it was conceived as a GT for the US market IIRC).

Did the Z3 also have a slightly wider rear track and tyres?

Dunno where this myth came from. I had an E30 325i back in the day and it handled quite badly on the limit and was quite unpredictable. A mate's E30 M3 that I drove many thousands of miles in, was sublime. There was nothing wrong with the geometry of my car but fundamentally cooking E30s were pretty rubbish. I guess the more limited wheel travel of the M3 helped reduce the camber change.

I can't say I agree. E30's remain so popular thanks, in no small part, to their chassis and predictable handling with the only real negative being the slow steering ratio.

[Poopipe]

All layouts will achieve lift off oversteer by the same process of lifting off when you shouldn't - once grip at the back is lost it makes bugger all difference which wheels are driven.

What's actually dangerous is driving like a cock in the first place.

[MC Bodge]

I remember it being said of RWD rally cars, that "the back was always trying to overtake the front".

Sums it up quite well.

[GravelBen]

MC Bodge said:

I remember it being said of RWD rally cars, that "the back was always trying to overtake the front".

Sums it up quite well.

The other thing thats said of RWD rally cars is "the most fun you can have with your pants on".

The thing that has been said of Fwd rally cars is "come on ya b@stard, turn in!"

Sums it up even better.

Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 23 October 21:38

[GravelBen]

Poopipe said:

All layouts will achieve lift off oversteer by the same process of lifting off when you shouldn't - once grip at the back is lost it makes bugger all difference which wheels are driven.

I've had great fun with lift-off oversteer in MX5s on trackdays.

Controlling that lift-off oversteer is probably easier with Rwd than Fwd for a capable driver as you can balance the car on the throttle and let it gradually hook up, rather than it snapping back into line (or beyond) with a lurch as the speed scrubs off a Fwd and it regains grip.

[MC Bodge]

GravelBen said:

MC Bodge said:

I remember it being said of RWD rally cars, that "the back was always trying to overtake the front".

Sums it up quite well.

The other thing thats said of RWD rally cars is "the most fun you can have with your pants on".

The thing that has been said of Fwd rally cars is "come on ya b@stard, turn in!"

Sums it up even better.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't criticising RWD, but FWD drags the back behind it -stable in a straight line.

[Kawasicki]

GravelBen said:

Controlling that lift-off oversteer is probably easier with Rwd than Fwd for a capable driver as you can balance the car on the throttle and let it gradually hook up, rather than it snapping back into line (or beyond) with a lurch as the speed scrubs off a Fwd and it regains grip.

This. And you don't need to really balance the throttle on a rwd car to still see an advantage. With total throttle lift the yaw rate is usually slower in the rwd car. The advantage of fwd is super fast and clean (yaw damped) lift-off oversteer correction if you get back on the throttle aggressively. Which about 0.01% of the driving population will do.

[Hasbeen]

MC Bodge said:

Haha. I have some sympathy with that view. To be fair, though, she's never destroyed any other cars.

The hairy chested chaps on here don't seem to realise that most people have no interest in driving cars that a tricky to master or take any special effort.

People learn the skills they need (or want). How many of us are accomplished horsemen and swordsman who can fight whilst mounted?

Why would such a person buy an S2000? An MX5 or a MR2 would be suitable for someone wanting to pose, as would any of the front drive convertibles. An S2000 really is a car for someone who wants to drive a bit.

[deltashad]

The younger generation have been brought up with FWD so are probably a bit fearful of the unknown.

Front engined RWD cars drive much better than FWD.

I've owned two mid-engined RWD cars, still have one and in the wet I have to be careful. Seriously careful.

[Hasbeen]

Garvin said:

XJ Flyer said:

Garvin said:

MC Bodge said:

XJ Flyer said:

In which case the rearward weight transfer of doing same with a FWD car would have meant even more chance of losing the front end instead of the back end.If she couldn't save it in time by cutting the power and with the front wheels still able to steer she certainly wouldn't have done in the case of all the steering being lost in the case of a FWD car.

Yes, whatever......

More like WTF? Coming off the throttle and cutting the power was probably the cause of her demise! Much more easily controlled in a FWD vehicle.

Feel free to explain the physics which your views are based on.The way I read it is that the thing lost traction on launch then started side slipping and/or fishtailing.Instead of using the steering and cutting the power she just didn't bother to steer and kept her foot in so the car slid ever further sideways under power to the point where it spun.Had that been a FWD car it just would have lost all steering control leaving just the choice of cut the power and hope as opposed to cut the power and steer.

The physics are simple. When the rear starts to slide sideways the natural reaction of most inexperienced drivers is to come completely off the throttle. This results in a deceleration and rear to front weight transfer. Due to the rear going light the sideways slip increases and is difficult to catch - classic lift off oversteer. Generally though, the inexperienced driver also grabs too much opposite lock whilst coming off the throttle. This quells the initial oversteer but generates an opposite polar moment and the back end snaps back the other way and requires a very quick reversal of the steering to catch - much more difficult than the initial correction and the vehicle spins out of control.

If you watch the videos of the muppets inexperienced drivers who give their exotic machinery welly in a straight line and lose the back end, the majority over correct the slide and end up spinning in the opposite direction of the initial slide. Some even manage to quell the spin but only when they are at right angles to their intended direction and then career into the scenery where a tree*/barrier*/other vehicle* halts their progress!

*Delete as applicable

Edited by Garvin on Thursday 23 October 20:11

Sorry Garvin you have got some of that quite wrong.

Loosing the tail under acceleration is a factor of wheel spin, or at least slip, starting towards spin.

Back off oversteer is a phenomena of front drive, & I have never experienced it in a rear wheel drive car. Lifting off when the back starts to slide will bring the tail back instantly. Just don't muck with the steering at the same time.

I have driven a few, including F1 & F2 Barhams & Lotus open wheelers along with Holden dealer team Monaros at Bathurst. I was a specialist in wet conditions, when controlling wheel spin was everything.

I will agree with you completely that too much opposite lock has sent many cars backwards into the scenery, when what was required was just a little reduction in pro turn lock. This is particularly the case in things like the S2000, with it's too light too direct steering. Mine has tried to bite me a couple of times, & it is obvious how the inexperienced get into trouble with them. Just a couple of inches of steering wheel movement has a lot of movement of the road wheels.

One of the problems today is wide tyres. I used to be able to drive stock Holdens & Fords to the snow on normal tyres no problem, when they ran on 4" wide steel wheels. The Bathurst Monaro was a little more difficult on 6" wheels & tyres, but only a little. Todays wide tyres have trouble biting through water or snow.

With our young lady, just backing off may have had a following car in her boot, but would never have caused her to spin, unless on ice.