Do folk really perceive RWD to be dangerous?
Discussion
Hol said:
RobM77 said:
Garvin said:
Hol said:
. . . . . . .
Wheel braking is wheel braking. - Whether it be via the disks, the drivetrain or a combination of both. . . . . .
I'm afraid it isn't. Braking using the discs can result in lock up and complete loss of traction on very slippery surfaces if the pedal pressure is not regulated extremely carefully - very difficult to do. Engine braking, on the other hand, due to drive being maintained via the transmission means that the wheels will not lock up on very slippery surfaces.Wheel braking is wheel braking. - Whether it be via the disks, the drivetrain or a combination of both. . . . . .
If you need a simple version./ to put it another way:
'You are heading down an icy hill and have to brake suddenly to avoid something with no other options. In such a scenario, and AWD car is subject to the same laws of physics as any other vehicle.
No one is arguing that the laws of physics are different for different vehicles. In the scenario you suggest then, yes, just jumping on the brakes in an identical fashion for any vehicle will have pretty much the same effect. However, I would contend that hitting the brakes in your scenario will result in instaneous locking of all wheels and an inexorable slide into the obstruction with very little scrub off of speed, whilst engine braking in the same circumstances will enable more speed to be removed and this effect will be heightened in an AWD vehicle.
This is why, in days of yore prior to the inclusion of all manner of electrickery, the advice for descending steep and slippery off road descents was (and still is) engage low gear, keep the clutch up, keep your foot off the brake and steer gently letting the engine braking effect take care of the speed.
Edited by Garvin on Saturday 25th October 15:05
Garvin said:
Hmmm! Your earlier post referred to wheel braking "via the drivetrain" - that's engine braking to me.
No one is arguing that the laws of physics are different for different vehicles. In the scenario you suggest then, yes, just jumping on the brakes in an identical fashion for any vehicle will have pretty much the same effect. However, I would contend that hitting the brakes in your scenario will result in instaneous locking of all wheels and an inexorable slide into the obstruction with very little scrub off of speed, whilst engine braking in the same circumstances will enable more speed to be removed and this effect will be heightened in an AWD vehicle.
This is why, in days of yore prior to the inclusion of all manner of electrickery, the advice for descending steep and slippery off road descents was (and still is) engage low gear, keep the clutch up, keep your foot off the brake and steer gently letting the engine braking effect take care of the speed.
another issue is that modern brakes have too little feel and aren't very progressive. No one is arguing that the laws of physics are different for different vehicles. In the scenario you suggest then, yes, just jumping on the brakes in an identical fashion for any vehicle will have pretty much the same effect. However, I would contend that hitting the brakes in your scenario will result in instaneous locking of all wheels and an inexorable slide into the obstruction with very little scrub off of speed, whilst engine braking in the same circumstances will enable more speed to be removed and this effect will be heightened in an AWD vehicle.
This is why, in days of yore prior to the inclusion of all manner of electrickery, the advice for descending steep and slippery off road descents was (and still is) engage low gear, keep the clutch up, keep your foot off the brake and steer gently letting the engine braking effect take care of the speed.
s m said:
161BMW said:
Perfect :-) !!!!
I have a Tech1.
Do you have any more mag reviews of E30 325i Sport.
LOL I have a Tech1.
Do you have any more mag reviews of E30 325i Sport.
Yes, just a few
I chose E30 325i Sport mainly because this was the car I always wanted when I was growing up and especially the 325i version. I loved the looks, the well designed driver-centric cockpit, all the gadgets especially Check Control and OBC. Also I bought it because I wanted to learn about RWD tail happy behaviour and improve my confidence wrt to that. I kind of "downgraded" from E46 323Ci (which has 2.5 litre NA I6). I have driven my Sport with an open diff (when I first bought it) and latterly Fully Rebuilt LSD. The LSD is 40% Lock 3.91. As standard mind would have had 25% Lock 3.64.
Any chance of you posting some more reviews particularly of the E30 325i / E30 325i Sport versions :-) ? I would be ever so grateful and can share with other E30 owners on E30 forum who would be also keen to read. PM me if is easier :-)
161BMW said:
Hi mate absolutely brilliant find and a great read. I enjoyed that :-)
I chose E30 325i Sport mainly because this was the car I always wanted when I was growing up and especially the 325i version. I loved the looks, the well designed driver-centric cockpit, all the gadgets especially Check Control and OBC. Also I bought it because I wanted to learn about RWD tail happy behaviour and improve my confidence wrt to that. I kind of "downgraded" from E46 323Ci (which has 2.5 litre NA I6). I have driven my Sport with an open diff (when I first bought it) and latterly Fully Rebuilt LSD. The LSD is 40% Lock 3.91. As standard mind would have had 25% Lock 3.64.
Any chance of you posting some more reviews particularly of the E30 325i / E30 325i Sport versions :-) ? I would be ever so grateful and can share with other E30 owners on E30 forum who would be also keen to read. PM me if is easier :-)
Sounds like you've got plans for it!I chose E30 325i Sport mainly because this was the car I always wanted when I was growing up and especially the 325i version. I loved the looks, the well designed driver-centric cockpit, all the gadgets especially Check Control and OBC. Also I bought it because I wanted to learn about RWD tail happy behaviour and improve my confidence wrt to that. I kind of "downgraded" from E46 323Ci (which has 2.5 litre NA I6). I have driven my Sport with an open diff (when I first bought it) and latterly Fully Rebuilt LSD. The LSD is 40% Lock 3.91. As standard mind would have had 25% Lock 3.64.
Any chance of you posting some more reviews particularly of the E30 325i / E30 325i Sport versions :-) ? I would be ever so grateful and can share with other E30 owners on E30 forum who would be also keen to read. PM me if is easier :-)
They're nice cars to drive about in ( although the steering would niggle me now as I remember mine seemed quite slow, albeit feelsome )
ETA - have a look in the recent Alpina C2 thread for a few more E30 scans if they float your boat
Edited by s m on Sunday 26th October 07:20
Good mate of mine bears a striking resemblance to Kamui Kobayashi, in the sense that he is of the same ethnicity and is also an excellent driver. Probably the petrolhead friend who I trust the most when Im sat in the passenger seat and he's pressing on.
He has staunchly avoided all RWD vehicles over the years, mainly due to the perceived 'trickiness' of RWD cars. Has owned a well-fettled Impreza, EK9 type-R and currently has a very powerful Focus ST.
Even my ham-fisted drifting demonstrations in my old mk1 MX5 weren't enough to pique his interest in RWD cars.
People with this attitude seem to be under the impression that losing a RWD car on the limit = death. I'd wager that lift-off oversteer in a FWD hot hatch has caught out just as many drivers. Even a clever 4WD system is no guarantee of safety if the driver doesn't know what he or she is up to. I for one wouldn't have a clue how to catch a 911 if the rear tried to overtake the front.
I personally found that fear of the unknown is the biggest issue when coming to a RWD performance car. My first was a 6-speed Supra, which I never really learned to drive on the limit. A combination of unfamiliarity and not being able to afford to fix it if I lost it meant that I'd lift off, brake and generally not commit to corners fully.
A sub £1K MX5 made all the difference, small, light and chuckable, with not a care in the world if I binned it (apart from my knees being the crumple zone). I'll now happily grab big, powerful RWD cars by the scruff of the neck, but I needed that rusty little Mazda to get there.
He has staunchly avoided all RWD vehicles over the years, mainly due to the perceived 'trickiness' of RWD cars. Has owned a well-fettled Impreza, EK9 type-R and currently has a very powerful Focus ST.
Even my ham-fisted drifting demonstrations in my old mk1 MX5 weren't enough to pique his interest in RWD cars.
People with this attitude seem to be under the impression that losing a RWD car on the limit = death. I'd wager that lift-off oversteer in a FWD hot hatch has caught out just as many drivers. Even a clever 4WD system is no guarantee of safety if the driver doesn't know what he or she is up to. I for one wouldn't have a clue how to catch a 911 if the rear tried to overtake the front.
I personally found that fear of the unknown is the biggest issue when coming to a RWD performance car. My first was a 6-speed Supra, which I never really learned to drive on the limit. A combination of unfamiliarity and not being able to afford to fix it if I lost it meant that I'd lift off, brake and generally not commit to corners fully.
A sub £1K MX5 made all the difference, small, light and chuckable, with not a care in the world if I binned it (apart from my knees being the crumple zone). I'll now happily grab big, powerful RWD cars by the scruff of the neck, but I needed that rusty little Mazda to get there.
HertsBiker said:
Look how skinny the tyres were in1987 on the M3 !
There was an option of slightly bigger 16" wheels with 225 section tyres on the M3 - was used on the Evolution cars.However 205 section tyres were pretty common on all the similar size/weight sports saloons of the time with 200bhp, such as the Merc 190 2.5-16, Sierra Cosworth, Carlton Gsi 24v
s m said:
HertsBiker said:
Look how skinny the tyres were in1987 on the M3 !
There was an option of slightly bigger 16" wheels with 225 section tyres on the M3 - was used on the Evolution cars.However 205 section tyres were pretty common on all the similar size/weight sports saloons of the time with 200bhp, such as the Merc 190 2.5-16, Sierra Cosworth, Carlton Gsi 24v
e21Mark said:
s m said:
HertsBiker said:
Look how skinny the tyres were in1987 on the M3 !
There was an option of slightly bigger 16" wheels with 225 section tyres on the M3 - was used on the Evolution cars.However 205 section tyres were pretty common on all the similar size/weight sports saloons of the time with 200bhp, such as the Merc 190 2.5-16, Sierra Cosworth, Carlton Gsi 24v
s m said:
161BMW said:
Hi mate absolutely brilliant find and a great read. I enjoyed that :-)
I chose E30 325i Sport mainly because this was the car I always wanted when I was growing up and especially the 325i version. I loved the looks, the well designed driver-centric cockpit, all the gadgets especially Check Control and OBC. Also I bought it because I wanted to learn about RWD tail happy behaviour and improve my confidence wrt to that. I kind of "downgraded" from E46 323Ci (which has 2.5 litre NA I6). I have driven my Sport with an open diff (when I first bought it) and latterly Fully Rebuilt LSD. The LSD is 40% Lock 3.91. As standard mind would have had 25% Lock 3.64.
Any chance of you posting some more reviews particularly of the E30 325i / E30 325i Sport versions :-) ? I would be ever so grateful and can share with other E30 owners on E30 forum who would be also keen to read. PM me if is easier :-)
Sounds like you've got plans for it!I chose E30 325i Sport mainly because this was the car I always wanted when I was growing up and especially the 325i version. I loved the looks, the well designed driver-centric cockpit, all the gadgets especially Check Control and OBC. Also I bought it because I wanted to learn about RWD tail happy behaviour and improve my confidence wrt to that. I kind of "downgraded" from E46 323Ci (which has 2.5 litre NA I6). I have driven my Sport with an open diff (when I first bought it) and latterly Fully Rebuilt LSD. The LSD is 40% Lock 3.91. As standard mind would have had 25% Lock 3.64.
Any chance of you posting some more reviews particularly of the E30 325i / E30 325i Sport versions :-) ? I would be ever so grateful and can share with other E30 owners on E30 forum who would be also keen to read. PM me if is easier :-)
They're nice cars to drive about in ( although the steering would niggle me now as I remember mine seemed quite slow, albeit feelsome )
ETA - have a look in the recent Alpina C2 thread for a few more E30 scans if they float your boat
Edited by s m on Sunday 26th October 07:20
Is standard except for
- LSD Fully rebuilt 40% Lock 3.91 (standard would have had 25% lock 3.64)
When I bought it the LSD was missing and replaced with open diff
- New Genuine BMW Z3 M Rear Diff Cover
- E46 3 Series Convertible rear top mounts
- Powerflex rear bushes
- Goodridge brake hoses to replace perished brake hoses
- Front wishbone bushes are concentric E30 M3 to improve feel
- Alpine sound system
- Exhaust is not original was like that when I got it and is made by Bosal. Needs replacing as centre box is cracked.
Maintenance wise I have replaced the following:
(Inspection II Service, Radiator, Ventilator, Fan shroud, Oil Cooler and tubes, illuminated Gearknob, prop donut, speedo repair kit, engine mounts, gearbox mounts, boot seal, rear light seals, M3 Sport Evolution steering wheel, steering lock, KDS wheel alignment and more but that's all I can remember for now)
MC Bodge said:
s m said:
Makes me smile when they talk about the new GT86 on its "spindly" 215s set up to slide about and only only pulls 1g on the skidpan
Is that all? Coupled with it's "dangerously slow" performance from its type-r-esque power levels, it sounds lethal.......but then people do comment on how slow stuff like the Cosworth/M3 are these days
Tyres were even narrower a few years earlier. Here is a shot of my 1962 Lotus 20 in about 65, with it's 4" wheels. Here it is in a 4 wheel drift, [proper drift, not the Japanese developed drifting], at about 90 MPH. You can see how much grip & force was developed by the angles of the wheels, from the chassis distortion.
I used to have a photo of Stirling Moss driving an early Lotus attempt at formula 1. The car was a Lotus 18, the formula junior before this 20, with a very similar suspension, the same wheels, & a 2.2 L Coventry Climax in it. Weighing less than 1000 LBS, with no limited slip diff, & 4" wheels, that must have required a fairly sensitive right foot to survive.
I used to have a photo of Stirling Moss driving an early Lotus attempt at formula 1. The car was a Lotus 18, the formula junior before this 20, with a very similar suspension, the same wheels, & a 2.2 L Coventry Climax in it. Weighing less than 1000 LBS, with no limited slip diff, & 4" wheels, that must have required a fairly sensitive right foot to survive.
e21Mark said:
I always found RWD more intuitive on the limit. Accelerating, to try and counteract oversteer in a front driven car, seemed counterintuitive by comparison. Whereas lifting off, or simply turning into a skid, just seemed like a natural reaction.
That's my thought too - a RWD car can be set up to be understeery under trailing throttle, which means that unless you are a fool and keep your foot down, you'll go head first into whatever you're about to hit. That's is the best way to go about it, all things considered. 
s m said:
I know
......but then people do comment on how slow stuff like the Cosworth/M3 are these days
...aye, you can barely get onto a motorway in one these days, I'm sure. Those cars don't have the stupendous Bluetooth connectivity (or launch control -seemingly the most important aspects) of a Golf R either. So you can't even be distracted that easily or let the car drive itself.......but then people do comment on how slow stuff like the Cosworth/M3 are these days
Just how did the ancients manage?
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