"I don't do enough miles to justify buying a diesel"
Discussion
People like the feeling of torque on demand when they press the accelerator. Forcing air in or using a bigger engine can help with this at lower rpm, whatever the fuel being burned.
High rpm torque often needs to worked for and is less "useful" in a day to day mode of transport and most drivers don't explore high rpm anyway.
Diesel fuel consumption can be financially beneficial and tank range is a convenience.
Disliking diesel with a a passion, for the way it drives, is a little irrational....
High rpm torque often needs to worked for and is less "useful" in a day to day mode of transport and most drivers don't explore high rpm anyway.
Diesel fuel consumption can be financially beneficial and tank range is a convenience.
Disliking diesel with a a passion, for the way it drives, is a little irrational....
ArmaghMan said:
swisstoni said:
As the OP has only a 5 mile commute, and is keen not to spend a lot on fuel I'd be looking at the relative cold start fuel consumption.
I have no idea if there is a difference but if there is it could be a factor in the decision.
As a slightly extreme example, I used an XJ12 as a station car for a while. The sight of 7 mpg meant I bought a bike pretty soon.
Someone explain this to me. Yes 7 mpg seen in isolation looks dreadful but, 5 miles per day times 5 days is 25 miles, meaning 3 and a 1//2 gallons per week. Allowing £7 per gallon that's less than £25 each week. I don't see the problem. I'm assuming that the old Jag is sitting all day at the station, not depreciating by a single penny per day. I have no idea if there is a difference but if there is it could be a factor in the decision.
As a slightly extreme example, I used an XJ12 as a station car for a while. The sight of 7 mpg meant I bought a bike pretty soon.
Your lovely new Korean econobox diesel may well do 50 mpg but even standing still it will be losing a clean fortune in depreciation every single day, even if it's only doing 5 miles per day. Factor in the depreciation and the old Jag works out far far cheaper.
If minimising costs is the key objective there is no better route than a spreadsheet exercise (including depreciation if applicable!). As for the driving experience, it's obviously subjective, but for me, until diesels rev much higher and sound much better, they can't compete with the petrol experience.
DaveCWK said:
Cost arguments aside, the most annoying everyday thing about diesels is the warm up time. Unless they have a fuel burning heater (and 95% don't) it takes miles and miles with the fans in auto deafening mode to get even a hint of warmth out the vents. Don't underestimate how much worse this makes a dark December morning when you just have to get to work.
My 20 year old LPG'd petrol blows warm at the end of the street.
What a load of cock.My 20 year old LPG'd petrol blows warm at the end of the street.
chrispj said:
ArmaghMan said:
Someone explain this to me. Yes 7 mpg seen in isolation looks dreadful but, 5 miles per day times 5 days is 25 miles, meaning 3 and a 1//2 gallons per week. Allowing £7 per gallon that's less than £25 each week. I don't see the problem. I'm assuming that the old Jag is sitting all day at the station, not depreciating by a single penny per day.
Your lovely new Korean econobox diesel may well do 50 mpg but even standing still it will be losing a clean fortune in depreciation every single day, even if it's only doing 5 miles per day. Factor in the depreciation and the old Jag works out far far cheaper.
Which lovely new Korean econobox diesel would that be, Swisstoni said he bought a bike?! At 25 quid a week for petrol and assuming 500 quid for a shiny new bike, the bike's paid for in 20 weeks... Your lovely new Korean econobox diesel may well do 50 mpg but even standing still it will be losing a clean fortune in depreciation every single day, even if it's only doing 5 miles per day. Factor in the depreciation and the old Jag works out far far cheaper.
My commute is a 14 mile round trip but would be almost a full gallon of SUL per day in my 350Z, but I am lucky I can cycle (need the exercise) or work from home, even in our diesel it doesn't do much more than 30 on that journey.
mikal83 said:
DaveCWK said:
Cost arguments aside, the most annoying everyday thing about diesels is the warm up time. Unless they have a fuel burning heater (and 95% don't) it takes miles and miles with the fans in auto deafening mode to get even a hint of warmth out the vents. Don't underestimate how much worse this makes a dark December morning when you just have to get to work.
My 20 year old LPG'd petrol blows warm at the end of the street.
What a load of cock.My 20 year old LPG'd petrol blows warm at the end of the street.
DaveCWK said:
Cost arguments aside, the most annoying everyday thing about diesels is the warm up time. Unless they have a fuel burning heater (and 95% don't) it takes miles and miles with the fans in auto deafening mode to get even a hint of warmth out the vents. Don't underestimate how much worse this makes a dark December morning when you just have to get to work.
My 20 year old LPG'd petrol blows warm at the end of the street.
My 1992 1.9D Clio was like this, and never really got warm, and my 2004 Jaguar S-Type diesel was terrible even with the webasto fuel burning heater but I've found my Volvo C70 D5 seems to warm up in a petrol-esque fashion although I'm pretty sure there is no fuel fired heater. Maybe the Swedes know how to do it properly because it's so fMy 20 year old LPG'd petrol blows warm at the end of the street.
king cold there?Fastdruid said:
Sheepshanks said:
If it wasn't broken then there must have been something seriously wrong with it, or it was some kind of de-tuned, over-geared, economy version.
I drove all sorts of 2 litre ish petrol and diesel cars as a rep in the 90's and early 2000's - everything from 2L petrol Sierra and Mondeo to diesel Audi A4 and 3 Series. I had a Peugeot 405GTX TD and liked it so much I got another.
One of the things I liked about the turbo diesels is the torque makes them feel much more effortless to drive and on some of them (I remember the Honda Accord diesel was especially good for this) you could leave it in 3rd and it would do everything from 15MPH to 75MPH which was great for twisty rural A road driving. It's also not that easy to stall a diesel - obviously you can do it on purpose, but you've got to be that brutal. And stalling over speed-bumps - give over.
Different era of diesels. I've not driven a single diesel that does from 15mph to 75mph in 3rd. Well, they might with attempting to throw then engine out of the car it shakes so much and take 2 years to do it.I drove all sorts of 2 litre ish petrol and diesel cars as a rep in the 90's and early 2000's - everything from 2L petrol Sierra and Mondeo to diesel Audi A4 and 3 Series. I had a Peugeot 405GTX TD and liked it so much I got another.
One of the things I liked about the turbo diesels is the torque makes them feel much more effortless to drive and on some of them (I remember the Honda Accord diesel was especially good for this) you could leave it in 3rd and it would do everything from 15MPH to 75MPH which was great for twisty rural A road driving. It's also not that easy to stall a diesel - obviously you can do it on purpose, but you've got to be that brutal. And stalling over speed-bumps - give over.
As for stalling, 2nd gear, wiff of throttle and kerclunk. Only way was in 1st or to be going far faster.
I did learn afterwards that I *was* possibly driving it wrong, I should have left the throttle alone as allegedly it's almost impossible to stall a diesel on idle as the computer handles everything and will just increase torque. As soon as you touch the throttle though you're controlling it and it can stall.
But there is just *no* torque in a modern diesel below ~1500rpm which is the most annoying feature and despite the claims that "it must be broken" every single one has been the same.
A very simple test, stick your diesel in 1st and get it moving, let it run at tickover and then put your foot down. Every single petrol car I have *ever* driven, no matter how slow, turbo'd, NA, piston, rotary will take off immediately.
Every single diesel I have ever driven wait's and wait's and slowly lumbers up to ~1500rpm and then finally bursts into life and takes off. That is what I hate, more than the lack of top end it's the bottom end, every junction, every roundabout it's put your foot down and wait and wait and wait for something to happen, followed by a flurry of power. Sure you can drive round it to a certain extent (or accept that you're going to take a few hours to get back up to 30) but it involves revving the t*t's off it in 1st (where they all sound like transits) and that makes a total mockery of the "easier to drive" and "more torque" claims, I find I have to change gear far more in a diesel than a petrol car.
gizlaroc said:
Well, I can see you have a strong case with such a well put argument for his opinion, but care to elaborate a little more?
Takes miles and miles to warm up and his lpg is toasty and he changes into t'shirt n shorts at the end of his street.... thats cock thats what that is, pure anti diesel sensationalist drivel.mikal83 said:
Takes miles and miles to warm up and his lpg is toasty and he changes into t'shirt n shorts at the end of his street.... thats cock thats what that is, pure anti diesel sensationalist drivel.
Not really. Most petrols are up to temp within a couple of minutes or a mile.
Most diesels, that are very efficient, can take 10 miles or 15 minutes to get to temperature.
My ML actually heats up pretty quickly, around 8 minutes and 4 miles, well it is at 70ºc anyway, which is good enough to have warm air in the cabin, but the 350cdi takes ages!! 9 miles into town in the morning and it is not quite at its 92ºc, and still not very warm bowers at the roundabout which is 5 miles, and not winter yet either.
MC Bodge said:
People like the feeling of torque on demand when they press the accelerator. Forcing air in or using a bigger engine can help with this at lower rpm, whatever the fuel being burned.
High rpm torque often needs to worked for and is less "useful" in a day to day mode of transport and most drivers don't explore high rpm anyway.
Diesel fuel consumption can be financially beneficial and tank range is a convenience.
Disliking diesel with a a passion, for the way it drives, is a little irrational....
Yes!High rpm torque often needs to worked for and is less "useful" in a day to day mode of transport and most drivers don't explore high rpm anyway.
Diesel fuel consumption can be financially beneficial and tank range is a convenience.
Disliking diesel with a a passion, for the way it drives, is a little irrational....
Some people like petrol and some like diesel, I used to like petrol and was going to buy a 335i until I drove a 330d.
The 330d with the 8 speed gearbox is effortless to drive, always in the right gear and in bang on maximum torque ready to accelerate to overtake, exit corners, merge with traffic and on and on. MPG, depreciation, fuel costs, smelly hand all unimportant to me I just loved and still love that 330d, engineering excellence.
The 335i, yes it’s a great car for some and the 330d is a great car for others, I like an easy drive hence my choice, and I do sod all miles a year!
Edited by knitware on Wednesday 29th October 14:59
Fastdruid said:
Different era of diesels. I've not driven a single diesel that does from 15mph to 75mph in 3rd. Well, they might with attempting to throw then engine out of the car it shakes so much and take 2 years to do it.
As for stalling, 2nd gear, wiff of throttle and kerclunk. Only way was in 1st or to be going far faster.
I did learn afterwards that I *was* possibly driving it wrong, I should have left the throttle alone as allegedly it's almost impossible to stall a diesel on idle as the computer handles everything and will just increase torque. As soon as you touch the throttle though you're controlling it and it can stall.
But there is just *no* torque in a modern diesel below ~1500rpm which is the most annoying feature and despite the claims that "it must be broken" every single one has been the same.
A very simple test, stick your diesel in 1st and get it moving, let it run at tickover and then put your foot down. Every single petrol car I have *ever* driven, no matter how slow, turbo'd, NA, piston, rotary will take off immediately.
Every single diesel I have ever driven wait's and wait's and slowly lumbers up to ~1500rpm and then finally bursts into life and takes off. That is what I hate, more than the lack of top end it's the bottom end, every junction, every roundabout it's put your foot down and wait and wait and wait for something to happen, followed by a flurry of power. Sure you can drive round it to a certain extent (or accept that you're going to take a few hours to get back up to 30) but it involves revving the t*t's off it in 1st (where they all sound like transits) and that makes a total mockery of the "easier to drive" and "more torque" claims, I find I have to change gear far more in a diesel than a petrol car.
You've obviously not driven one of the twin-turbo diesels fitted to the 3- and 5-series. As for stalling, 2nd gear, wiff of throttle and kerclunk. Only way was in 1st or to be going far faster.
I did learn afterwards that I *was* possibly driving it wrong, I should have left the throttle alone as allegedly it's almost impossible to stall a diesel on idle as the computer handles everything and will just increase torque. As soon as you touch the throttle though you're controlling it and it can stall.
But there is just *no* torque in a modern diesel below ~1500rpm which is the most annoying feature and despite the claims that "it must be broken" every single one has been the same.
A very simple test, stick your diesel in 1st and get it moving, let it run at tickover and then put your foot down. Every single petrol car I have *ever* driven, no matter how slow, turbo'd, NA, piston, rotary will take off immediately.
Every single diesel I have ever driven wait's and wait's and slowly lumbers up to ~1500rpm and then finally bursts into life and takes off. That is what I hate, more than the lack of top end it's the bottom end, every junction, every roundabout it's put your foot down and wait and wait and wait for something to happen, followed by a flurry of power. Sure you can drive round it to a certain extent (or accept that you're going to take a few hours to get back up to 30) but it involves revving the t*t's off it in 1st (where they all sound like transits) and that makes a total mockery of the "easier to drive" and "more torque" claims, I find I have to change gear far more in a diesel than a petrol car.
gizlaroc said:
mikal83 said:
Takes miles and miles to warm up and his lpg is toasty and he changes into t'shirt n shorts at the end of his street.... thats cock thats what that is, pure anti diesel sensationalist drivel.
Not really. Most petrols are up to temp within a couple of minutes or a mile.
Most diesels, that are very efficient, can take 10 miles or 15 minutes to get to temperature.
My ML actually heats up pretty quickly, around 8 minutes and 4 miles, well it is at 70ºc anyway, which is good enough to have warm air in the cabin, but the 350cdi takes ages!! 9 miles into town in the morning and it is not quite at its 92ºc, and still not very warm bowers at the roundabout which is 5 miles, and not winter yet either.
Monty Python said:
You've obviously not driven one of the twin-turbo diesels fitted to the 3- and 5-series.
Nope and tbh have no real desire to either. Although the x30d[1], x35d and x40d's all come with an autobox (which gets round the lack of rev-range and needing more gearchanges) and aren't in the same league as the 2.0d's that are being talked about.
You might as well compare with 3l+ petrol V6's or 4l V8's where I'll still have the petrol thanks.
[1] Although you can get the 330d as a manual
xRIEx said:
Fastdruid said:
Although the x30d[1], x35d and x40d's all come with an autobox (which gets round the lack of rev-range and needing more gearchanges)
What exactly do you mean by "lack of rev range"?Or in the case of my car, the diesel version makes torque between 1750rpm and 2240rpm while mine makes its torque from 1500rpm up to 4800rpm.
knitware said:
The 335i, yes it’s a great car for some and the 330d is a great car for others, I like an easy drive hence my choice, and I do sod all miles a year!
I have had the 335i and the 330d, and they both feel pretty similar, the 335i feels like a big diesel, the main difference is the slightly higher rev range which worked well with the paddles and the 335i sounded nicer.But both similar, I actually found I preferred the 330i that I was loaned, that revved higher, was more relaxed at lower revs and was more fun at higher revs, sounded even better and returned 38mpg over the two days and 495 miles I did in it.
And that brings us back to NA vs FI rather than petrol vs diesel.
There is no right or wrong, the only thing that annoys me is those who say they have bought the diesel to save money and then say their car ownership costs have halved. Of course they haven't, more like a 5% saving for many.
Sure, go from a 300bhp straight six to a 160bhp 4cyl derv and you will save at the pump, but this that see 50mpg average from their 330d will see 40mpg from the 330i.
Fastdruid said:
xRIEx said:
Fastdruid said:
Although the x30d[1], x35d and x40d's all come with an autobox (which gets round the lack of rev-range and needing more gearchanges)
What exactly do you mean by "lack of rev range"?Or in the case of my car, the diesel version makes torque between 1750rpm and 2240rpm while mine makes its torque from 1500rpm up to 4800rpm.
What are the respective gearings and road speeds between the models?
I'm not really a fan of diesels in cars but I do think they work really well in 4x4s. A decent diesel engine in a 4x4 can move 2+ tons of vehicle around as fast as you would want it to go and still manage 30mpg, a petrol engine has to be huge to achieve the same sense of relaxed progress and would return more like half the mpg. Also off road the pulling power at barely over idle revs and the greater engine braking make the whole experience much easier and more relaxing.
Yes the downside is they sound rubbish and smell bad but you can't have everything.
Yes the downside is they sound rubbish and smell bad but you can't have everything.
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