"I don't do enough miles to justify buying a diesel"
Discussion
Baryonyx said:
What they should be saying, is that life is too short to own a diesel (as well as the fact they don't like short journeys).
Ignoring the usual Diesel hate comment. Have you not seen any of the posts above? Short jouneys wont be great for any new car in some aspects, but not ALL diesels suffer as badly as some do. DPF filters are fine on short trips so long as theres a good amount of longer trips thrown in. Or you simply look out for the first warning light which basically gives you an excuse to go out for a blast. To the OP, I think most people (ignoring the haters) will say stick with older diesel tech, steering clear of dpf filter systems unless you enjoy having an excuse to go for a blast (and possibly looseing overall MPG of course!)
Or go with petrol if you like, but basically mileage on the commute is only part of the picture really.
Ignoring for a second that diesel is the devils fuels and the cars are horrible to drive, don't warm up in winter and modern ones fail horribly when used for short runs... 
If you don't care about driving enough to to consider a diesel then it all comes down to the money and diesels even second hand diesels command (rightly or wrongly) a premium.
I created a spreadsheet with all costs, guestimated that I would get ~85% of the claimed average mpg and there were very few diesels that could beat the petrol for <10-15k pa, most of those were where the diesel was so common and had such good deals/offers on that they were the same price as the petrol (or in some cases cheaper).
The 320d is a case in point, on paper the 320i is cheaper up until ~18k pa, in reality the amazingly good deals on them means that it breaks even after ~5-8k or less.
Yes the diesels "hold their value better" but that goes both ways in that the petrols while losing more as a percentage often lose less actual money. The downside of this argument of course is that assumes you are looking at equivalent cars (age, mileage etc), it falls down a bit when you consider you can get a newer lower mileage car which is on a different point of the depreciation curve...
It's very worth while getting the estimated service costs and schedules for what you are considering as well, every diesel I looked at was far more to service (although I only looked at a few).
Personally I'm more than happy to pay ~£500-1000 pa to not drive a diesel but it turns out I don't have to, for the few miles I do the petrol (even the 2.5T I run) is cheaper as the diesel version commands a ~3-4k premium and while my car is valued ~2k less than when I bought it the (not very) equivalent diesel is ~4k less!
If you don't care about driving enough to to consider a diesel then it all comes down to the money and diesels even second hand diesels command (rightly or wrongly) a premium.
I created a spreadsheet with all costs, guestimated that I would get ~85% of the claimed average mpg and there were very few diesels that could beat the petrol for <10-15k pa, most of those were where the diesel was so common and had such good deals/offers on that they were the same price as the petrol (or in some cases cheaper).
The 320d is a case in point, on paper the 320i is cheaper up until ~18k pa, in reality the amazingly good deals on them means that it breaks even after ~5-8k or less.
Yes the diesels "hold their value better" but that goes both ways in that the petrols while losing more as a percentage often lose less actual money. The downside of this argument of course is that assumes you are looking at equivalent cars (age, mileage etc), it falls down a bit when you consider you can get a newer lower mileage car which is on a different point of the depreciation curve...
It's very worth while getting the estimated service costs and schedules for what you are considering as well, every diesel I looked at was far more to service (although I only looked at a few).
Personally I'm more than happy to pay ~£500-1000 pa to not drive a diesel but it turns out I don't have to, for the few miles I do the petrol (even the 2.5T I run) is cheaper as the diesel version commands a ~3-4k premium and while my car is valued ~2k less than when I bought it the (not very) equivalent diesel is ~4k less!
Some good advice on here, thank you chaps. I know some of you will think that my response here is a case of selective reading but it's useful to be able to unpick internet myths vs real life experiences. What's been posted here kinda affirms my understanding that the only downside of running a derv as a daily for my commute will (as long as the car stretches it's legs every now and then, which it will) be the less than book economy and higher potential for bills given the more complicated tech, but steering away from snazzy modern diesels with super low emissions should reduce this risk somewhat.
With regard to the driver engagement, at the moment that's long way down my list. Whilst I'm ploughing 1/2 my earnings into house saving that's a long way down my list. Once the new house, and subsequent reduced mortgage repayments have been achieved, I can re-asses life priorities and put something with multiple cylinders at >3000cc displacement on the driveway.
With regard to the driver engagement, at the moment that's long way down my list. Whilst I'm ploughing 1/2 my earnings into house saving that's a long way down my list. Once the new house, and subsequent reduced mortgage repayments have been achieved, I can re-asses life priorities and put something with multiple cylinders at >3000cc displacement on the driveway.
Fastdruid said:
Ignoring for a second that diesel is the devils fuels and the cars are horrible to drive, don't warm up in winter and modern ones fail horribly when used for short runs...
I feel sad for you, you must have driven some REALLY awful diesel cars in your time. By the sounds of it they must have been so old they needed a handcrank to start them and a chap to stand in front with a flag..... rockandrollmark said:
Some good advice on here, thank you chaps. I know some of you will think that my response here is a case of selective reading but it's useful to be able to unpick internet myths vs real life experiences. What's been posted here kinda affirms my understanding that the only downside of running a derv as a daily for my commute will (as long as the car stretches it's legs every now and then, which it will) be the less than book economy and higher potential for bills given the more complicated tech, but steering away from snazzy modern diesels with super low emissions should reduce this risk somewhat.
With regard to the driver engagement, at the moment that's long way down my list. Whilst I'm ploughing 1/2 my earnings into house saving that's a long way down my list. Once the new house, and subsequent reduced mortgage repayments have been achieved, I can re-asses life priorities and put something with multiple cylinders at >3000cc displacement on the driveway.
Im in a similar boat. We have recently spent over two years totally renovating our house, and had to park up our more fun cars due to total running costs to spend more on the house. Everyone looks at fuel, mpg etc and talk about souless driving or horrible to drive etc. But in real terms it doest matter what powers the car, realistically most cars to get to and from work when theres other more pressing areas to spend money on, will be bog standard a to b affairs.With regard to the driver engagement, at the moment that's long way down my list. Whilst I'm ploughing 1/2 my earnings into house saving that's a long way down my list. Once the new house, and subsequent reduced mortgage repayments have been achieved, I can re-asses life priorities and put something with multiple cylinders at >3000cc displacement on the driveway.
Its not just fuel costs, I pay cheaper VED, cheaper insurance (this alone saves me a few hundred quid) I've had less issues with these TDi's than petrol cars and of the issues I have had are cheap and easy to fix or would have happened in a petrol car due to wear and tear.
If you go VAG TDI, buy yourself a cheap diagnostic lead for the PC or a code reader and when you do have a fault (and all cars will eventually!) you can find out what it is and quiet often sort it yourself with a few spanners and help from an owners site.
spats said:
Fastdruid said:
Ignoring for a second that diesel is the devils fuels and the cars are horrible to drive, don't warm up in winter and modern ones fail horribly when used for short runs...
I feel sad for you, you must have driven some REALLY awful diesel cars in your time. By the sounds of it they must have been so old they needed a handcrank to start them and a chap to stand in front with a flag..... All sh*t. Horribly gutless outside of the waffer thin powerband, sound like a tractor and vibrate like anything.
I'm sure the big engined v6 3l diesels etc are very nice they're the exception rather than the rule and the small ones are horrible.
Fastdruid said:
I'm sure the big engined v6 3l diesels etc are very nice they're the exception rather than the rule and the small ones are horrible.
Quite true, 4 pot diesel engines are almost universally quite nasty and I'd say even nastier then the already pretty s
t 4 pot petrols you get in hum drum cars. I must admit I do like the way a big >4 cylinder engine diesel can feel to drive though. Even the extra one cylinder in the Volvo and Mercedes 5 cylinder engines seems to make it a lot nicer.cptsideways said:
Its not miles per year, but journey type thats important.
Diesels when cold are still way way more efficient than a petrol engine, bear in mind though with a derv you generally don't get any cabin heat worth talking about till 5-10 miles down the road, crap on a sub zero morning! Unless you have a Webasto equipped variant eg 530d/Audi A2 et al
I thought pretty well all diesel cars had hefty electric booster heaters in the block? Fords do, and so does my 2004 Merc. Diesels when cold are still way way more efficient than a petrol engine, bear in mind though with a derv you generally don't get any cabin heat worth talking about till 5-10 miles down the road, crap on a sub zero morning! Unless you have a Webasto equipped variant eg 530d/Audi A2 et al
Snag on the Merc is that the heater takes so much power (1.7kw) that it only works when the car is moving. But on a freezing day I can (manually) clear the screen, drive off and get warm air after about 400yds. I would say it takes 15 miles of rolling steady driving for the engine to be thoroughly warmed through though. Putting the car under load makes a big difference but there aren't many opportunities to do that.
I had an A Class courtesy car and they have piezo electric heater in the air ducts, so you get pretty instant heat, like turning a hair dryer on.
Having said that, we bought a Golf for a family member who will mainly use it for a 5 mile commute and we didn't even consider diesel.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Monday 27th October 18:22
I've tried the diesel route,it lasted 3 weeks. However as I now have a 90 mile commute daily I often toy with the idea of another given that my SOTW 300CE isn't the most frugal.... But and it's a decent but,I had a brand new S350 bluetec diesel hire car a couple of weeks ago to drive from Newcastle back home to near Hull so a decent long run,although I came over the Moors as it's more fun. The car was brilliant,fast and smooth apart from when it started and stopped in Eco mode it felt like it was going to break an engine mount,it managed an impressive 38 mpg not hanging around and given it would have been £67k in that trim I think that isn't enough of a saving to justify the diesel. If I could afford a £70k car I would be able to put petrol in it. I also borrowed an E320 cdi,circa 10 years old for a few short runs last week,managed 22 mpg. As such I will be sticking with petrol,a few lads at work have smaller diesels but they aren't saving much even on a long run. My previous clio 182 was the best compromise,driven steadily with big engine in a light car I was doing 40-43 mpg so no need for anything else.
I agree with the 15-20k miles view though,the numbers would make sense then in a modern 120d or similar.
I agree with the 15-20k miles view though,the numbers would make sense then in a modern 120d or similar.
There is the making oil issue also
http://avontuning.co.uk/2013/07/mazda-6-oil-level-...
+ servicing may be more frequent & more expensive
& I doubt you'd get the same car/mileage/spec etc for the same price, the diesel normally more
BUT sometimes diesels drive better than the petrol versions, I had that once and it was mostly down to the gearbox & final drive (6spd Vrs 5spd and the diesel wasn't revving it's head off at 70 in 5th well actually it was but it had a 6th
)
http://avontuning.co.uk/2013/07/mazda-6-oil-level-...
+ servicing may be more frequent & more expensive
& I doubt you'd get the same car/mileage/spec etc for the same price, the diesel normally more
BUT sometimes diesels drive better than the petrol versions, I had that once and it was mostly down to the gearbox & final drive (6spd Vrs 5spd and the diesel wasn't revving it's head off at 70 in 5th well actually it was but it had a 6th
)Edited by CO2000 on Monday 27th October 16:59
I currently run a leased Ibiza FR TDI for my daily, I do around 20k per year.
It will never do less than 500 miles to a £50-55 fill up (fuel prices fluctuate), it only needs servicing every 20k so once a year and the lease is £ 199.40.
Costs work out (for servicing, lease and fuel) at around £ 395 per month, there is a warranty so repairs aren't an issue.
If I was to replace it with a petrol that did say 30 mpg I would spend £ 310 per month in fuel costs alone, that is without paying for the car its self or servicing, and if it was an older car repair bills obviously.
To me a diesel daily makes sense, I drive almost all my 20k a year on motorways and sat on cruise at 60 (motorways are so congested its a rarity to be able to make it over 60) it doesn't make any difference whether the car is powered by diesel, petrol or coco pops.
I then have my Clio 172 track car for track and driving for pleasure. Win win situation.
It will never do less than 500 miles to a £50-55 fill up (fuel prices fluctuate), it only needs servicing every 20k so once a year and the lease is £ 199.40.
Costs work out (for servicing, lease and fuel) at around £ 395 per month, there is a warranty so repairs aren't an issue.
If I was to replace it with a petrol that did say 30 mpg I would spend £ 310 per month in fuel costs alone, that is without paying for the car its self or servicing, and if it was an older car repair bills obviously.
To me a diesel daily makes sense, I drive almost all my 20k a year on motorways and sat on cruise at 60 (motorways are so congested its a rarity to be able to make it over 60) it doesn't make any difference whether the car is powered by diesel, petrol or coco pops.
I then have my Clio 172 track car for track and driving for pleasure. Win win situation.
spats said:
I would go for the PD 1.9tdi all day long. I drive 12 miles each way and the journey is mainly 50mph roads with traffic, and a little bit of 70mph with no traffic but a few roundabouts thrown in.
I average real world (not off the mpg screen) 42mpg+ in our old Golf and about the same in our A4, both with the 1.9tdi. Heating up doesnt take long and theres enough points during the trip to open the vanes on the turbo to stop them sticking. My last car was a petrol and I got 27mpg on the very same trip.
Stick with the 115-130bhp 1.9's and as long as the oil/cambelt/water pump is changed and its given a good blast it should be a good car.
+1I average real world (not off the mpg screen) 42mpg+ in our old Golf and about the same in our A4, both with the 1.9tdi. Heating up doesnt take long and theres enough points during the trip to open the vanes on the turbo to stop them sticking. My last car was a petrol and I got 27mpg on the very same trip.
Stick with the 115-130bhp 1.9's and as long as the oil/cambelt/water pump is changed and its given a good blast it should be a good car.
Im going to actually switch to a RWD petrol just so i can have a more fun thing to drive however as people have said before avoid dpf and go with an older 1.9, much more solid and bombproof than the 2.0 equivalent vag motor
Sheepshanks said:
cptsideways said:
Its not miles per year, but journey type thats important.
Diesels when cold are still way way more efficient than a petrol engine, bear in mind though with a derv you generally don't get any cabin heat worth talking about till 5-10 miles down the road, crap on a sub zero morning! Unless you have a Webasto equipped variant eg 530d/Audi A2 et al
I thought pretty well all diesel cars had hefty electric booster heaters in the block? Fords do, and so does my 2004 Merc. Diesels when cold are still way way more efficient than a petrol engine, bear in mind though with a derv you generally don't get any cabin heat worth talking about till 5-10 miles down the road, crap on a sub zero morning! Unless you have a Webasto equipped variant eg 530d/Audi A2 et al
In comparison my petrol is starting to get a hint of warmth within a mile.
Of course a better spec car (than the Galaxy I had) would have heated seats so heating then is not as important.
J4CKO said:
For 5 miles, it shouldn't be petrol vs diesel, should be a bike when the weather isn't horrendous and something petrol that does 18 mpg the rest of the time or you fancy a change from cycling.
This.Buy a V8 or V12 and a bike.
The higher the fuel consumption on the car, the more likely you'll take the bike and the fitter you'll get.
Pistonheads can make you live longer.
J4CKO said:
For 5 miles, it shouldn't be petrol vs diesel, should be a bike when the weather isn't horrendous and something petrol that does 18 mpg the rest of the time or you fancy a change from cycling.
In theory yes, a lovely idea, and I acknowledge how I must be coming across as a lard arse for not just hopping on the bike for a 5 mile commute, but the occasional need to get out and see clients means the need to have a car in the car park for when the pool car's being used.I'm still not totally sold on a diesel, hence asking the question. If after running the numbers something like a 320i comes out cheaper that would be the preferred option in all honesty, as I know where I stand with a simple 4 pot petrol.
ETA: Just curious as to where all this talk of having to do big miles to justify a diesel comes from. I didn't know about the heater thing, so that alone has been something I've learnt. It's worth noting though that I live in Milton Keynes, so 2/3rds of my 5 mile commute will be quarter mile blasts of 50 / 60mph, braking, then back up to speed again.
Edited by rockandrollmark on Monday 27th October 18:02
I must be one of the few here that enjoys driving a Diesel engined car!
Just bought a 2.0 tdi engined Audi A3 with the 140 hp engine and it pulls strongly from low revs exactly where I need it.
I only do around 10k a year and it gets some decent runs so dpf issues are not really a major concern to me, I will address that problem if and when it happens.
Just bought a 2.0 tdi engined Audi A3 with the 140 hp engine and it pulls strongly from low revs exactly where I need it.
I only do around 10k a year and it gets some decent runs so dpf issues are not really a major concern to me, I will address that problem if and when it happens.
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