What is the most overrated car manufacturer?

[vtecyo]

f1nn said:

Reading through this thread make me wonder how out of touch a lot of people are.

Let's take Audi and BMW as an example, as they seem to be catching a lot of flack here.

They sell a lot of cars. They do this because they make cars that a lot of people want to buy. These cars may not be the last word in dynamics or build quality, but ask yourself who is buying the cars and what they will be used for?

Why make an A4 handle like an elise when it will spend 99% of its time trudging up the motorway? Why give a 1 series an advanced, high revving petrol masterpiece, when most of its buyers want to surf round on a surge of diesel torque and get reasonably high MPG?

These cars may not be what you or I want, but evidently they are what most people want, and to that end, from a business point of view, I think Audi and BMW are doing an excellent job.

When I read comments that Audi are a marketing company who happen to make cars, I think that is a massive compliment to how they have evolved their business in the last 15 or so years.

Exactly this.

[anonymous-user]

Beer Man said:

Did your finger slip on the keyboard? What's the // about???

Anyway, apart from the M3, M5 and M6 (which, let's face it, are either ugly or bland), which, if my baby maths is correct, is three cars.

Out of HOW many in the range?????

Well most reviews like the handling of the 1/3/5 series, which lets face it is why we enjoy driving?

Is that inclusive enough for you?

[chrispmartha]

900T-R said:

You know the meaning of 'overrated'? Like in 'providing a perfectly adequate, but undistinghuished product at a healthy premium compared to the just-as-adequate competitors and succeed in having people believe it's actually worth the premium'?

Yes, it's a perfectly viable business case - at least until people twig that they're looking at the emperor's new clothes. But there's still nothing wrong or contrary about calling out the product as 'overrated' - which it patently is.

I'm not sure you've got the correct meaning of overrated, I think you're getting confused with overpriced.

[Morningside]

cslwannabe said:

Actually Jaguar - based on my sample size of 1 (having only ever owned 1) our XF got worse and worse as the miles racked up (owned it from new to 55k miles in just under 3 years) and it frequently broke down, consumed a dozen headlights in the time we owned it, spent weeks in the dealer with electrical issues (never resolved), got through 2 sets of rear brake pads and 1 set of fronts in the time we owned it, yet the British motoring press never say a bad word against Jaguar.

I agree with Jaguar. I was following one yesterday and it reminded me. A friend of mine had one in the late 80s and I have seen better electics on a Rover.

Would Aston be where it is without the James Bond wanna be followers?

[RobM77]

Having read quite a few posts on this thread now, I think it's important to see a wider perspective and remember what a car's being rated for in the first place. Lots of people are assuming that a highly rated car is rated on their own criteria, which may be totally different to the criteria of the person who rated the car highly! Not everyone is after the same thing in a car (which is why so many car manufacturers exist).

For example, some people are saying that BMWs are over-rated because they're 'bland' or can have a poor ride with certain wheel and tyre options. I don't think anyone who rates the cars well would disagree about that (I know I don't, in fact I like my cars to be bland and discreet, it helps me get away with driving as fast as I do without attracting unwanted attention), but that's not why they get rated highly is it? As for handling, then that's subjective. If you're the sort of person who never pushes a car hard and likes perky initial responses from controls, then you probably won't enjoy a BMW (or a Porsche, Lotus etc) - an Alfa may appeal more, or some of the more recent Vauxhalls that are set up for that sort of driving.

Audi are another example (the non RS models) - it's tempting to say they're over-rated because they're so dull and understeerey to drive. However, I think everyone knows that - the people who rate them highly tend to like Audi's understated design and nice looking and feeling interiors - that's why they rate them highly and in that area they deliver and imho aren't over-rated. I wouldn't want an Audi if you gave me one for free (as someone did last year for three months and many thousands of miles - awful thing), but that's my own personal thoughts, not a considered opinion on Audis generally and I don't think they're over-rated, even though I don't like them.

Ford are another example that have appeared a lot on this thread. I think the simple thing with Fords is that they're hugely over-priced. Most people though don't pay the list price, so if you read a review of a Ford and assume it's selling for what a fleet buyer buys one for, not the sticker price in a dealership, then the reviews make a lot more sense and Fords don't appear over-rated at all.

Not listed on this thread but mentioned a lot in the motorsport world is Lotus, and I'll finish with this as an extreme example to prove my point. I need to tread carefully here because I adore them and don't want to upset anyone, but if you're the sort of person who priorities innate handling balance over delicacy, control feel and linear responses, then you won't enjoy them as much as the multitude of track cars with more balanced weight distribution (but often nowhere near as good controls, delicacy etc..). That doesn't make Lotuses over-rated though, for what they set out to do they're utterly fantastic (I'm on my second and love it to bits) and it doesn't make their critics wrong, it just depends what you judge them on.

So I think for virtually every manufacturer, even some of the best, being over-rated is simply a matter of perspective, and lots of people on this thread would do well to get some

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 29th October 11:27

[DoubleSix]

Beer Man said:

THE most overrated?

BMW.

to be fair, their marketing department must be staffed entirely by genius types as their cars are f****** awful

Ok, I'm convinced you're trolling now.

[Beer Man]

Why?

[900T-R]

RobM77 said:

Stuff

Nice try and I see where you're coming from, but I think the key difference between Mercedes and BMW on one end and Audi on another is that the former two (for the most part) aren't just chintzy packaging around the same underpinnings that you can get far cheaper on the market elsewhere. There's no denying that Tesco Value stuff is perfectly adequate, but would you pay Waitrose prices for it just because it's nicely presented?

Edited by 900T-R on Wednesday 29th October 11:33

[f1nn]

Beer Man said:

Why?

Because objectively, BMW's products are not fking awful. They may not to be your tastes, but that does not necessarily make them a bad product.

[DoubleSix]

Because every thread I see you comment on you seem so wide of the mark I can only surmise you joined PH to troll.

I don't recognise anything in your posts that suggests you are a car enthusiast, have any mechanical understanding, or even appreciate what makes most car people tick.

And it's half term.

Honest question, how old are you?

[Beer Man]

f1nn said:

Because objectively, BMW's products are not fking awful. They may not to be your tastes, but that does not necessarily make them a bad product.

the one I had was, as were the ones of other family members, as were those of many friends.

[f1nn]

900T-R said:

Nice try and I see where you're coming from, but I think the key difference between Mercedes and BMW on one end and Audi on another is that the former two (for the most part) aren't just chintzy packaging around the same underpinnings that you can get far cheaper on the market elsewhere. There's no denying that Tesco Value stuff is perfectly adequate, but would you pay Waitrose prices for it just because it's nicely presented?

Edited by 900T-R on Wednesday 29th October 11:33

Clearly, a lot of people would. I imagine that those people rate them very highly.

[RobM77]

Beer Man said:

f1nn said:

Because objectively, BMW's products are not fking awful. They may not to be your tastes, but that does not necessarily make them a bad product.

the one I had was, as were the ones of other family members, as were those of many friends.

On what criteria though? Your opinion is welcome if you can back it up with a reasoned argument.

[Beer Man]

It's in a post of mine above.

Anyhow, my "Why?" was in response to DoubleSix's post, not yours.

[f1nn]

Beer Man said:

the one I had was, as were the ones of other family members, as were those of many friends.

just out of interest, and please don't think I'm trying to be inflammatory here, as so many of one brand of car has been, in your words, fking awful for most of the people you know, has there been a common theme as to why?

[chrispmartha]

RobM77 said:

On what criteria though? Your opinion is welcome if you can back it up with a reasoned argument.

I believe one of his criteria was that his brother bought a 2005 M3 and it spent a lot of time back at the dealers being fixed.

Now that doesn't provide much context, how old was the car when it was bought? How much was the car? did it have a FSH?

All that aside, those and his other points seem to suggest that BMWs are not very reliable.

[DoubleSix]

Beer Man said:

It's in a post of mine above.

Anyhow, my "Why?" was in response to DoubleSix's post, not yours.

I responded with a question of my own Beer Man.

[Beer Man]

DoubleSix said:

Because every thread I see you comment on you seem so wide of the mark I can only surmise you joined PH to troll.

I don't recognise anything in your posts that suggests you are a car enthusiast, have any mechanical understanding, or even appreciate what makes most car people tick.

And it's half term.

Honest question, how old are you?

Well if you must know I'm 38 and wayyyyy past half term.

Car history (all genuine) should give an idea to whether I'm a car 'enthusiast' and just because I loathe the blue and white propellor does that not make me a car person????

[john banks]

I am a converted Audi fanboy, but of the A8 and S8 I have bought in the last six months I have found nowhere near the combination of refinement, ride vs handling, traction, equipment, comfort, economy, performance and VFM within or without the VAG range. I think they are underrated.

Challenge to anyone that can come up with a better combination of the above properties on a year old example... Let's see the links and prices...

Edited by john banks on Wednesday 29th October 12:01

[900T-R]

I must have driven about three dozen (new) BMWs in my days, more often than not back-to-back with direct competitors or other cars that just happened to be there at the time.

Some were memorable for one reason or another, others were just competent. None were 'fking awful'.

The first-generation Kia Rio I drove might have qualified for being 'fking awful'. With a bit of artistic license, the Suzuki Wagon-R that the company had as a runabout which you got when you needed to go somewhere and all test cars were spoken for, could be in there with a shout, too.

There were lots of cars with serious deficiencies (like the Saab Viggen that would try and swap lanes when you looked at the throttle pedal in a dirty way) but they all had their merits so (said Saab had fantastic seats, perfect ergonomics, a great powertrain, good build quality and it was a bit of a looker) on balance they weren't 'fking awful'.

The BMW 316is that an Editor who I worked for had as short lease/rental cars couldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding, but they had lovely steering, well-balanced handling, all the main controls were slick and well-honed and they felt like a quality item overall. So again, not 'fking awful' by a huge margin - just lovely cars that could have done with a bit more power. OK, a lot more power.

Then again, cars don't need to be 'fking awful' to be overrated. Cars can be perfectly nice and good, just a bit lacking in the exalted company their price, pretenses and the regard they are held in by the public at large puts them in - hence 'overrated'.