What is the most overrated car manufacturer?
Discussion
Beer Man said:
Errrrm, because they're overrated maybe? And every a****le in a one series or 3 and 5 series X20d thinks they're in an //M (seriously, wtf is the "//" in type all about???) car.
As mentioned before, I was unfortunate enough to have a 320d dumped upon me as apunishment company car and it was utterly dreadful. My old man has an X3 which is, quite probably, THE worst car in the world. My younger bro bought a 2005 M3, new, which spent more than two thirds of its short life at the local rip off merchants (dealer) and over the last few years travelling over 100k miles per year I saw more broken down BMs on the hard shoulders of our motorway network than ANY other make of car. Reliable? Well built? Well engineered? My arse.
As for the "i" cars, now if they're not overrated then I don't know WTF is.
By who, you, yes. As mentioned before, I was unfortunate enough to have a 320d dumped upon me as a
As for the "i" cars, now if they're not overrated then I don't know WTF is.
So on your massive experience of two cars you can comprehensively say everyone who drives a BMW is an 'a****le'? Why was the 320d dreadful, I mean if you can actually put something constructive together rather than 'it was a right piece of s
t' that would be great. Similarly the M3, not my choice of car but there must have been a bit of lemon in that one? More BMW's on the hard shoulder than ANY other make, really, not my experience and I do a fair few miles. Oh and the 'i' cars, ha, overrated they are, aren't they...are they? What is the issue with them? The reviews are favorable and people are buying them. At the risk of getting shouted down by the haters and trolls, but very few of the posters have really answered the question and just used it as an excuse to bash a particular brand.
Which car brand gets more praise than it deserves........
Are Audi's (non RS) overrated ? Perhaps the to the general public who fall for the showroom factor but to car lovers we all know there understeerie characteristics, but you cant deny they are finished (interior & exterior wise) a lot better than most. I think rated exactly where they deserve.
BMW (outside of M) seem to be a target again but they build very solid if a little linear and bland machines outside & in , but they are inherently more fun to drive than most, so i think they are rated where they deserve.
To me the only brands which can be overrated are Italian or British.
Land Rover certainly was at one time but their product has got significantly better than what it used to produced that they just about match the hype.
My votes are.
Alfa Romeo: All the racing pedigree and some of the best looking & some of the better driving cars and now all they produce is two humdrum hatchbacks. Yet journalists still use the old italian hyperbole about them. Although they might be returning to form soon with the spider.
Might be a odd one but Maserati: Again, all the racing pedigree and some classic cars over the years but they've now been turned into upper management company car brand with a but more exhaust noise.
Which car brand gets more praise than it deserves........
Are Audi's (non RS) overrated ? Perhaps the to the general public who fall for the showroom factor but to car lovers we all know there understeerie characteristics, but you cant deny they are finished (interior & exterior wise) a lot better than most. I think rated exactly where they deserve.
BMW (outside of M) seem to be a target again but they build very solid if a little linear and bland machines outside & in , but they are inherently more fun to drive than most, so i think they are rated where they deserve.
To me the only brands which can be overrated are Italian or British.
Land Rover certainly was at one time but their product has got significantly better than what it used to produced that they just about match the hype.
My votes are.
Alfa Romeo: All the racing pedigree and some of the best looking & some of the better driving cars and now all they produce is two humdrum hatchbacks. Yet journalists still use the old italian hyperbole about them. Although they might be returning to form soon with the spider.
Might be a odd one but Maserati: Again, all the racing pedigree and some classic cars over the years but they've now been turned into upper management company car brand with a but more exhaust noise.
jamieduff1981 said:
Rover got slated mostly because they're British and the British prefer to masturbate over the German nation in some perverted "we wish we lost the war" fantasy - or alternatively because some K-series engines needed head gasket improvements
What a crock. Having owned an 800, Metro and K series in the Caterham I have seen all I need to about Rover 'quality'. The Metro spat it's gearbox out at 25K, 800 HGF, 1.8K in the Caterham HGF. The reason the head gasket failed in the Caterham was two fold. Liner height and head porosity. s
tty casting techniques and sloppy assembly in the factory was the main issue with the K, which is still a wonderful design. Unfortunately built by morons in the main part. It wasn't 'some' it was 'lots' of failures and along with the failures the wonderful response from dealers who just threw new gaskets in only for repeat failures. Perhaps if they'd used metal dowels instead of the stty plastic ones, perhaps if they had put the heads on with proper jigs so that the assemblies didn't clout each other, damaging the heads, they might have made a go of it. But no. This is why I put Rover up there with some of the worst offenders, they had a decent product and ruined it. It wasn't BMW, it wasn't the public, it was their own doing. A whole home nation and associated police force, government, military, etc to sell into on top of the exports and they fked it up.Slag the Germans off as much as you wish but they do have a car industry.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 30th October 11:07
jhonn said:
Some great posts in this thread and I've enjoyed it immensely - this however is the stand-out line for me and is worth repeating - pretty much a LOL moment right there.
Indeed! How does that old saying go? jamieduff1981 said:
.. Rover got slated mostly because they're British and the British prefer to masturbate over the German nation in some perverted "we wish we lost the war" fantasy...
"Many a true ....." you know the rest or should do.
For far too many decades now, the British are and have been their own worst enemy. There are signs that that may be changing, particularly about anything UK Manufacturing related as well as other important stuff. About time because it's well overdue.
Great thread and lots of stuff which needed saying.
jamieduff1981 said:
Rover got slated mostly because they're British and the British prefer to masturbate over the German nation in some perverted "we wish we lost the war" fantasy
Indeed. It's probably a case of familiarity breeding contempt. From a dispassionate Dutch POV (not belonging to either side), the German engineering tradition has its own failings (often making things needlessly complicated because of not thinking things through on a conceptual level and not questioning any briefings that are given 'from above', preferring to follow them to the letter and then work around the obvious failings) and (design for) mass manufacturing in large coprotate entities leads to the same set of cost-related compromises everywhere, be in in Birmingham or Bavaria. Even the Japanese have proven to be far from infallible in the latter regard.
Swings and roundabouts...
As an aside, the respected Dutch magazine Autovisie once held a giant test of eight 'sporting' diesel reps about a decade ago. The finishing order was:
8. Audi A4
7.
6.
5.
4. Saab 9-3
3. BMW 320d
2. Alfa 156
1. MG ZT (despite being the least powerful and slowest of the group).
900T-R said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Rover got slated mostly because they're British and the British prefer to masturbate over the German nation in some perverted "we wish we lost the war" fantasy
Indeed. It's probably a case of familiarity breeding contempt. From a dispassionate Dutch POV (not belonging to either side), the German engineering tradition has its own failings (often making things needlessly complicated because of not thinking things through on a conceptual level and not questioning any briefings that are given 'from above', preferring to follow them to the letter and then work around the obvious failings) and (design for) mass manufacturing in large coprotate entities leads to the same set of cost-related compromises everywhere, be in in Birmingham or Bavaria. Even the Japanese have proven to be far from infallible in the latter regard.
Swings and roundabouts...
As an aside, the respected Dutch magazine Autovisie once held a giant test of eight 'sporting' diesel reps about a decade ago. The finishing order was:
8. Audi A4
7.
6.
5.
4. Saab 9-3
3. BMW 320d
2. Alfa 156
1. MG ZT (despite being the least powerful and slowest of the group).
More seriously, further proof positive that in other parts of the world with less blinkered and brainwashed mindsets, these cars stand well in their unbiased appraisals.
Over on the 75/ZT club site, there are differing opinions. The diesel 75/ZT is held in high regard but, many members tell me the 1.8 Turbocharged 75s and ZTs have the best engine. I did find that hard to believe. Subsequent events make me less certain about that.
Back in late winter this year, I took on a non-running MG ZT 1.8t "project" with suspected damaged cylinder head gasket. Car would simply not start. The "Fix" was a £6 plastic clip on the in-tank Fuel Filter. This in-tank filter has a BMW logo on it so a remnant BMW design from when they bought and owned the Rover Group. Reassembled the Fuel Filter with the clip in place and car started immediately. Apparently that in-tank Fuel Filter BMW design is a common "they all do that" problem.... It has its own name ... FFS.... no not that, Fuel Filter Syndrome ...
Replaced the suspect Cylinder Head Gasket ( CHG ) with the MLS ( Multi-Layer-Steel ) item with its Head Saver Shim. The car is surprisingly nice to drive. The little K-Series in turbocharged form which I've always suspected is being asked to punch well above its weight in these larger cars, copes more than adequately. Delighted with the car and closing on 2,000 miles later after my "fix" car is now my regular daily driver. Replacing the CHG on any K-Series is a doddle even for the DIYer.
Just maybe those who say this is the best engine in the Rover 75 and MG ZT are right. Certainly changed my mind about the Turbocharged 1.8 K-Series.
If anyone were to start a "Most under rated Cars in the UK" thread, MGs and Rovers would surely be in the top ... er ... one..
white_goodman said:
Just out of interest (because I don't actually know), how much Renault engineering goes into Nissan and which company is propping up the corporation these days? I know some Nissans have Renault engines but Nissan does have its own European product development centre in the UK. I know that Nissan is probably the least reliable "Japanese" brand but do the Japanese made cars still have engineering input from Renault and Infiniti for instance? I would be very surprised if there were any Renault parts in the GTR!
Actually...I don't know the answer to your question - my 'rant' was based on experience of the more recent Nissan utility models (Navara, Pathfinder), and how their engineering integrity had decreased from when they built Patrols, pre-Renault.I suspect that you are correct when you say that Nissan premium models (GTR) and Infinity will have little Renault input.
powerstroke said:
white_goodman said:
powerstroke said:
Land rover by a country mile and VAG very average these days.
OK. Why Land Rover? Do you mean all of VAG, as Skoda still seem good value and well-rated by their owners?I think Ferraris are over rated, with money `they' cost build quality should be superb, but it is not. I was looking in the engine bay one recently, and it had a heat shield between the engine bay and passenger compartment which was secured by pressing it onto pins welded to the bulkhead, and star washers.
I have seen better engineering in a washing machine.
Vauxhall.
Let me explain...although pretty much no-one holds them in high regard, I do wonder how a company with the resources available through one of the world's largest automotive enterprises could offer into the mainstream cars like;
Viceroy (Carlton with nicer seats - but pretends to be whole new car)
Sintra (do you even remember it? At least it offered the 3.0 24v)
Antara (now Mocha'd)
Signum (all the grace of the Vectra but less practical and not nice to look at)
- although it did retire them after a decent period of reflection.
I know others have their dark horses (Ford Probe, Honda Logo) but VX seems to enjoy battling against the market with some proper clunkers. I acknowledge it's better attempts (VX220 and Monaro) but it really should do better.
All imho.
Let me explain...although pretty much no-one holds them in high regard, I do wonder how a company with the resources available through one of the world's largest automotive enterprises could offer into the mainstream cars like;
Viceroy (Carlton with nicer seats - but pretends to be whole new car)
Sintra (do you even remember it? At least it offered the 3.0 24v)
Antara (now Mocha'd)
Signum (all the grace of the Vectra but less practical and not nice to look at)
- although it did retire them after a decent period of reflection.
I know others have their dark horses (Ford Probe, Honda Logo) but VX seems to enjoy battling against the market with some proper clunkers. I acknowledge it's better attempts (VX220 and Monaro) but it really should do better.
All imho.
yonex said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Rover got slated mostly because they're British and the British prefer to masturbate over the German nation in some perverted "we wish we lost the war" fantasy - or alternatively because some K-series engines needed head gasket improvements
What a crock. Having owned an 800, Metro and K series in the Caterham I have seen all I need to about Rover 'quality'. The Metro spat it's gearbox out at 25K, 800 HGF, 1.8K in the Caterham HGF. The reason the head gasket failed in the Caterham was two fold. Liner height and head porosity. s
tty casting techniques and sloppy assembly in the factory was the main issue with the K, which is still a wonderful design. Unfortunately built by morons in the main part. It wasn't 'some' it was 'lots' of failures and along with the failures the wonderful response from dealers who just threw new gaskets in only for repeat failures. Perhaps if they'd used metal dowels instead of the stty plastic ones, perhaps if they had put the heads on with proper jigs so that the assemblies didn't clout each other, damaging the heads, they might have made a go of it. But no. This is why I put Rover up there with some of the worst offenders, they had a decent product and ruined it. It wasn't BMW, it wasn't the public, it was their own doing. A whole home nation and associated police force, government, military, etc to sell into on top of the exports and they fked it up.Slag the Germans off as much as you wish but they do have a car industry.
Edited by yonex on Thursday 30th October 11:07
I'm aware of the sloppy Rover work some times. There are plenty issues in German cars that get excused and apologised for by the British whereas any British product failing is used as an excuse to buy German.
In contrast to your K-series experience, I had a Honda era 620 with the Rover L-series diesel which cover 186k without any problems except a clutch which I ruined and an appetite for front brake pads.
jamieduff1981 said:
In contrast to your K-series experience, I had a Honda era 620 with the Rover L-series diesel which cover 186k without any problems except a clutch which I ruined and an appetite for front brake pads.
I agree, there are always exceptions to the rule of any reliability story. I love the K engine, it is second only to the B18 engine IMHO. It is a known fact that they were poorly built and poorly tuned. Shame.Also I dont buy the anti British sentiment. People love TVR, even with their faults. Caterham's the same. IMO the issue was a failing of mass production and a s
tty management/labour force. f1nn said:
Reading through this thread make me wonder how out of touch a lot of people are.
Let's take Audi and BMW as an example, as they seem to be catching a lot of flack here.
They sell a lot of cars. They do this because they make cars that a lot of people want to buy. These cars may not be the last word in dynamics or build quality, but ask yourself who is buying the cars and what they will be used for?
Why make an A4 handle like an elise when it will spend 99% of its time trudging up the motorway? Why give a 1 series an advanced, high revving petrol masterpiece, when most of its buyers want to surf round on a surge of diesel torque and get reasonably high MPG?
These cars may not be what you or I want, but evidently they are what most people want, and to that end, from a business point of view, I think Audi and BMW are doing an excellent job.
When I read comments that Audi are a marketing company who happen to make cars, I think that is a massive compliment to how they have evolved their business in the last 15 or so years.
Re. BMW: Us enthusiasts are undoubtedly sore about their current and future directions (FWD, WTF?) but if a manufacturer makes reliable cars that are truly ideally-suited to their intended usage, pretty much the only criticism can be along the lines of the enthusiast missing the "purity" and "soul" of their back catalogue.Let's take Audi and BMW as an example, as they seem to be catching a lot of flack here.
They sell a lot of cars. They do this because they make cars that a lot of people want to buy. These cars may not be the last word in dynamics or build quality, but ask yourself who is buying the cars and what they will be used for?
Why make an A4 handle like an elise when it will spend 99% of its time trudging up the motorway? Why give a 1 series an advanced, high revving petrol masterpiece, when most of its buyers want to surf round on a surge of diesel torque and get reasonably high MPG?
These cars may not be what you or I want, but evidently they are what most people want, and to that end, from a business point of view, I think Audi and BMW are doing an excellent job.
When I read comments that Audi are a marketing company who happen to make cars, I think that is a massive compliment to how they have evolved their business in the last 15 or so years.
A lot depends on what you mean by "overrated". Just because lots of people consume / demand something, it doesn't mean it's good (unless of course you're a stakeholder
). - Take the trend for drug dealer wheels for example: Objectively, unless you're talking about aesthetics, and even then it's questionable, they make most cars ride and handle worse than more modestly-sized equivalents (with a higher-profile tyre).In the case of VAG, a lot of their products are almost comically overrated...especially the everyday Golf-platform stuff. They might be genuinely good transportation devices with acceptable real-world quality and reliability (it's no good having a cuddly dashboard if the car won't drive) but the way some bang on about them, you'd imagine they were hewn out of solid unobtanium and coated with diamond before being delivered with complimentary 18-year-old virgins and some really good drugs.
viggyp said:
crossy67 said:
I can't believe no has mentioned the F word. That's right Fiat, no other car comes close to poor design and build quality in my quite extensive experience. How the hell do they win car of the year awards EVERY year?
Probably because they've never been rated that highly like most German or Japanese manufacturers. They're average at best. Saying that, I've owned 7 Fiats and hardly had any issues although you're right about build quality. My Grande Punto is squeaking inside something chronic after 7 years of ownership. It was nice and quiet inside. Great engines though. The reason no one has mentioned the F word is because everyone knows what you get with a Fiat and that is reflected in the purchase price. How can a car manufacturer be overrated if they don't get massive hype/aren't massively over priced and then not fail to deliver (OK there's the odd bad Fiat but they are much better than they used to be)? If anything I'd say they're a bit underrated if you ask me. Like viggyp I have a Punto, yes it's a bit squeaky but nothing major has gone wrong with it and if it does then it doesn't break the bank.
Going against what I first said and backing up the fact that they are underrated, the 500 is a cracking car; it feels really solid, well equipped, looks nice, is well screwed together and handles really well. There's a reason so many people bought them...
Edited by Swanny87 on Thursday 30th October 15:03
Pan Pan said:
If people cannot see the difference in build quality between a Ford / Vauxhall etc and an equivalent model from the VAG range, they clearly are not looking hard enough.
I think Ferraris are over rated, with money `they' cost build quality should be superb, but it is not. I was looking in the engine bay one recently, and it had a heat shield between the engine bay and passenger compartment which was secured by pressing it onto pins welded to the bulkhead, and star washers.
I have seen better engineering in a washing machine.
In your 200mph washing I take it?I think Ferraris are over rated, with money `they' cost build quality should be superb, but it is not. I was looking in the engine bay one recently, and it had a heat shield between the engine bay and passenger compartment which was secured by pressing it onto pins welded to the bulkhead, and star washers.
I have seen better engineering in a washing machine.
From recent Mondeo and Passat hire cars I'd say if anything the Ford was the better put together.
Pan Pan said:
If people cannot see the difference in build quality between a Ford / Vauxhall etc and an equivalent model from the VAG range, they clearly are not looking hard enough.
I'd say exactly the opposite - the reason people can't see a difference in build quality between a Ford/Vauxhall and a VW is precisely because they are looking hard enough. The German car makers have become absolute masters of plastering a veneer of quality over decidedly average products. yonex said:
Pan Pan said:
If people cannot see the difference in build quality between a Ford / Vauxhall etc and an equivalent model from the VAG range, they clearly are not looking hard enough.
I think Ferraris are over rated, with money `they' cost build quality should be superb, but it is not. I was looking in the engine bay one recently, and it had a heat shield between the engine bay and passenger compartment which was secured by pressing it onto pins welded to the bulkhead, and star washers.
I have seen better engineering in a washing machine.
In your 200mph washing I take it?I think Ferraris are over rated, with money `they' cost build quality should be superb, but it is not. I was looking in the engine bay one recently, and it had a heat shield between the engine bay and passenger compartment which was secured by pressing it onto pins welded to the bulkhead, and star washers.
I have seen better engineering in a washing machine.
From recent Mondeo and Passat hire cars I'd say if anything the Ford was the better put together.
Sure the engines and transmissions appear to be well made, but the bodywork details (especially in areas which it is assumed will not normally be seen) is truly appalling for the money.
But as VW and Fords are mass produced, this is reflected in their prices and pound for pond, the quality of these is much better.
But as a simple example of the difference between a VW and Ford estate, the VW has swing out, chrome plated rings, to tie a load down, The Ford has short sections of welding rod tacked to the boot floor which are accessed via slits cut in the carpet. As posted if anyone cannot see the difference in quality between the two they really aren't looking at them properly
kambites said:
I'd say exactly the opposite - the reason people can't see a difference in build quality between a Ford/Vauxhall and a VW is precisely because they are looking hard enough. The German car makers have become absolute masters of plastering a veneer of quality over decidedly average products.
This. kambites said:
Pan Pan said:
If people cannot see the difference in build quality between a Ford / Vauxhall etc and an equivalent model from the VAG range, they clearly are not looking hard enough.
I'd say exactly the opposite - the reason people can't see a difference in build quality between a Ford/Vauxhall and a VW is precisely because they are looking hard enough. The German car makers have become absolute masters of plastering a veneer of quality over decidedly average products. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff