What is the most overrated car manufacturer?
Discussion
Pan Pan said:
to VW products, but `close' examination, shows that the VW is better on quality.
The you're looking not close enough I'm afraid. Beyond VAG being better in interior design, I'd say if anything there's more cost-cutting going on in the oily bits of their products that tends to come to bite their customers in the a**e. Especially the 1.4 TSI engines' record is far from unblemished, the only thing worse on the market seems to be the PSA 1.6 HDI...Overall, there's very little to choose between mainstream manufactures competing in the same segments, these days. They all order from the same pool of Tier 1 suppliers after all, and there's no leeway whatsoever for specifying components of quality that's one notch higher than that of their direct competitors.
What you see and perceive as better quality, is just a function of how clever designers and production engineers are with the same sort of Meccano box.
kambites said:
Pan Pan said:
VW products, but `close' examination, shows that the VW is better on quality.
That is absolutely not my experience. Working on modern VAG engines, I've been horrified by some of the cost-cutting which is evident just below the surface. When I have had VW engines apart, the quality of the components and castings appears vastly superior to similar models from other manufacturers. So
it would seem to be down to a matter of viewpoint / opinion rather than anything else.
Pan Pan said:
Then you seem not to have worked on engines from other makes.
I've worked on modern Ford units a bit and generally found them to be similar to VAG ones; slightly better in some areas, slightly worse in others. I have no experience of Vauxhall engines of the last ten years or so. Comparing a VW engine to a Hyundai one, for example, makes the VW unit look like a poorly assembled toy.
900T-R said:
Pan Pan said:
to VW products, but `close' examination, shows that the VW is better on quality.
The you're looking not close enough I'm afraid. Beyond VAG being better in interior design, I'd say if anything there's more cost-cutting going on in the oily bits of their products that tends to come to bite their customers in the a**e. Especially the 1.4 TSI engines' record is far from unblemished, the only thing worse on the market seems to be the PSA 1.6 HDI...Overall, there's very little to choose between mainstream manufactures competing in the same segments, these days. They all order from the same pool of Tier 1 suppliers after all, and there's no leeway whatsoever for specifying components of quality that's one notch higher than that of their direct competitors.
What you see and perceive as better quality, is just a function of how clever designers and production engineers are with the same sort of Meccano box.
DoubleSix said:
You're all being vague.
What are these "oily parts" that are of poor quality "just under the surface"??
Educate us with real examples if you have them...
What are these "oily parts" that are of poor quality "just under the surface"??
Educate us with real examples if you have them...
Peugeot and some Citroens are so poorly manufactured it costs £100 plus to change a light bulb. On some Nissans the fuel filler flap is just a piece
of pressed metal with sharp edges on the inside, not even a rolled edge to it.
On some Peugeots (again through dodgy design) the inlet manifold has to be removed to replace the spark plugs. The entire tail gate on Citroen Saxos was formed from injection moulded plastic.
The air vents on some Peugeots, are just slots cut into the dashboard plastic. not even direct able.
All manufactures are using plastics to replace what would have been formed in metal to save on costs but some it seems are abusing the practice.
Pan Pan said:
DoubleSix said:
You're all being vague.
What are these "oily parts" that are of poor quality "just under the surface"??
Educate us with real examples if you have them...
What are these "oily parts" that are of poor quality "just under the surface"??
Educate us with real examples if you have them...
Peugeot and some Citroens are so poorly manufactured it costs £100 plus to change a light bulb. On some Nissans the fuel filler flap is just a piece
of pressed metal with sharp edges on the inside, not even a rolled edge to it.
On some Peugeots (again through dodgy design) the inlet manifold has to be removed to replace the spark plugs. The entire tail gate on Citroen Saxos was formed from injection moulded plastic.
The air vents on some Peugeots, are just slots cut into the dashboard plastic. not even direct able.
All manufactures are using plastics to replace what would have been formed in metal to save on costs but some it seems are abusing the practice.
kambites said:
Pan Pan said:
Then you seem not to have worked on engines from other makes.
I've worked on modern Ford units a bit and generally found them to be similar to VAG ones; slightly better in some areas, slightly worse in others. I have no experience of Vauxhall engines of the last ten years or so. Comparing a VW engine to a Hyundai one, for example, makes the VW unit look like a poorly assembled toy.
DoubleSix said:
Pan Pan said:
DoubleSix said:
You're all being vague.
What are these "oily parts" that are of poor quality "just under the surface"??
Educate us with real examples if you have them...
What are these "oily parts" that are of poor quality "just under the surface"??
Educate us with real examples if you have them...
Peugeot and some Citroens are so poorly manufactured it costs £100 plus to change a light bulb. On some Nissans the fuel filler flap is just a piece
of pressed metal with sharp edges on the inside, not even a rolled edge to it.
On some Peugeots (again through dodgy design) the inlet manifold has to be removed to replace the spark plugs. The entire tail gate on Citroen Saxos was formed from injection moulded plast
The air vents on some Peugeots, are just slots cut into the dashboard plastic. not even direct able.
All manufactures are using plastics to replace what would have been formed in metal to save on costs but some it seems are abusing the practice.
Pan Pan said:
For the price Ferraris cost they should be superb throughout, but they are not
Sure the engines and transmissions appear to be well made, but the bodywork details (especially in areas which it is assumed will not normally be seen) is truly appalling for the money.
But as VW and Fords are mass produced, this is reflected in their prices and pound for pond, the quality of these is much better.
But as a simple example of the difference between a VW and Ford estate, the VW has swing out, chrome plated rings, to tie a load down, The Ford has short sections of welding rod tacked to the boot floor which are accessed via slits cut in the carpet. As posted if anyone cannot see the difference in quality between the two they really aren't looking at them properly
If the engineers were told to make everything 'superb' the car that they produced would be so expensive nobody would buy it. To complain about a heat shield is a bit much, which exact model Ferrari are we talking about? The thin (and getting thinner) layer of veneer that VAG sprinkle on their cars is just that. Case in point. Every 5 year old Audi I have seen the controls are wearing out on the stereo and door switches, it's pretty poor. Still I guess when you get off on tie down rings..... it's a shame VAG don't pay as much attention to their coil packs, perhaps they need chrome plating as well to make them last more than 12 months at a time, do you think they should divert money away from the 'Heatshield Engineering Dept' Sure the engines and transmissions appear to be well made, but the bodywork details (especially in areas which it is assumed will not normally be seen) is truly appalling for the money.
But as VW and Fords are mass produced, this is reflected in their prices and pound for pond, the quality of these is much better.
But as a simple example of the difference between a VW and Ford estate, the VW has swing out, chrome plated rings, to tie a load down, The Ford has short sections of welding rod tacked to the boot floor which are accessed via slits cut in the carpet. As posted if anyone cannot see the difference in quality between the two they really aren't looking at them properly
So without reading through the whole thread the synopsis is everyone has their own views and reasons for giving overrated status to certain marques.
What is surprising though is the high volume of distain towards VAG, especially Audi.
It does seem that BMW are given credit, amongst the usual ignorance, for being an innovator of engine development and handling and indeed the standard that all manufactures try to keep up with.
Where next for Audi, what does that marque need to do to direct away negative attention?
What is surprising though is the high volume of distain towards VAG, especially Audi.
It does seem that BMW are given credit, amongst the usual ignorance, for being an innovator of engine development and handling and indeed the standard that all manufactures try to keep up with.
Where next for Audi, what does that marque need to do to direct away negative attention?
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