What is the most overrated car manufacturer?
Discussion
whoami said:
Given that they've just posted record sales, nothing.
Badge snobs and fashionistas account for more sales than car enthusiasts. Don't really see it as a problem though, let them get on with it. There are still lots decent, faster, safer and just as fun cars being made, now more than ever.
simo1863 said:
whoami said:
Given that they've just posted record sales, nothing.
Badge snobs and fashionistas account for more sales than car enthusiasts. Don't really see it as a problem though, let them get on with it. There are still lots decent, faster, safer and just as fun cars being made, now more than ever.
I expect company cars account for the vast majority of audi sales
jontysafe said:
Aston Martin.
Looked at a V8 vantage against a 911 and an M6.
Mediocre was Not even good enough for the Aston. Quite simply more badge than engineering and slow as buggery. M6 far less shouty and look at me. Performance wasn't even on the same page.
Thank god the M6 is less shouty and look at me. It means I'm less likely to look at the goppingly ugly thing.Looked at a V8 vantage against a 911 and an M6.
Mediocre was Not even good enough for the Aston. Quite simply more badge than engineering and slow as buggery. M6 far less shouty and look at me. Performance wasn't even on the same page.
jhonn said:
Dacia - wow, were they hyped up by TopGear (particularly James May) - what's all the fuss about? - it's a dreary econobox built (if you're lucky) to the same crappy levels as Renault/Nissan; Dacia - vastly overrated.
A very cheap, budget brand manufacturer is overrated in what way? As someone else has mentioned, it seems your expectations are seriously out of line.SonicHedgeHog said:
Chris Y said:
1. BMW
2. Audi
3. VW
This. All badge and no substance. Bloody expensive too.2. Audi
3. VW
SonicHedgeHog said:
Chris Y said:
1. BMW
2. Audi
3. VW
This. All badge and no substance. Bloody expensive too.2. Audi
3. VW
All cars have substance. Even Dacia... the quantity varies though.
For the average car consumer and some enthusiasts, what does appear over rated is rear wheel drive... Oh yes, and driftin' ...
Mr2Mike said:
jhonn said:
Dacia - wow, were they hyped up by TopGear (particularly James May) - what's all the fuss about? - it's a dreary econobox built (if you're lucky) to the same crappy levels as Renault/Nissan; Dacia - vastly overrated.
A very cheap, budget brand manufacturer is overrated in what way? As someone else has mentioned, it seems your expectations are seriously out of line.As for the rest of this thread, you have to laugh at all the BMW owners trying to justify paying over the odds for an average car and getting angry. "World beating engines" ha ha.
I know its a little removed, but my old man's just sold the first BMW bike he's ever owned of the 30 odd he's had over the years. The HG had gone, and whilst talking to the mechanic he said "German engineering eh?". The mechanic turned round and said the engine was built in Worthing. Just shows how much myth there is associated with BMW.
That said I've never driven one, they've never appealed to me. Ever since a wide-boy give it the large in his nearly new M3 when I still had my old 1994 WRX and ended up a little upset I realised how over-rated the whole brand was. It's a shame about Audi, most of the BM no-brain brigade seem to now choose them as company cars. All of their prestige and racing heritage is being ruined by some insecure angry suits thinking they own the road.
As for my own experience I would say the French should stick to chomping on onions and going uh-he-haw-he-haw. I'd find it very hard to buy anything other than Japanese. They are pretty bullet proof, and when something goes wrong they are so easy to work on. The lean six-sigma is there for all to see.
BMW owners trying to "justify owning one"? Do you think I found mine at the bottom of the garden or something? 
I think, at first thought anyway, that I've driven every single four seater saloon on sale for under £50k, and quite simply I bought my favourite one; I didn't just pick a random car and then justify it afterwards. I think you're putting the cart before the horse a bit suggesting that owners 'justify' their purchases after they've made them; it's a free world and most people buy what they like the most! Now I'm not saying it's perfect, but it was quite an easy decision as not much else comes close with four proper seats, a boot etc. If you really think another car does come close or betters it for someone interested in driving and handling, then I'm all ears...
Most of the criticisms on this thread just seem to be all talk with no actual reasoning or logic - some people just like to criticise popular things to make themselves sound knowledgeable. You get it with everything from Apple phones to Tiffany jewellery; it's easy to spot because it's always just empty criticism with no actual intelligent reasoning behind it. I think the eager justification, contrary to what these people claim, actually comes from the critics themselves. Vanity and snobbery prevents such people owning anything popular like an iPhone or a BMW and then they have to justify why they bought a less popular and probably inferior product.
I think, at first thought anyway, that I've driven every single four seater saloon on sale for under £50k, and quite simply I bought my favourite one; I didn't just pick a random car and then justify it afterwards. I think you're putting the cart before the horse a bit suggesting that owners 'justify' their purchases after they've made them; it's a free world and most people buy what they like the most! Now I'm not saying it's perfect, but it was quite an easy decision as not much else comes close with four proper seats, a boot etc. If you really think another car does come close or betters it for someone interested in driving and handling, then I'm all ears...Most of the criticisms on this thread just seem to be all talk with no actual reasoning or logic - some people just like to criticise popular things to make themselves sound knowledgeable. You get it with everything from Apple phones to Tiffany jewellery; it's easy to spot because it's always just empty criticism with no actual intelligent reasoning behind it. I think the eager justification, contrary to what these people claim, actually comes from the critics themselves. Vanity and snobbery prevents such people owning anything popular like an iPhone or a BMW and then they have to justify why they bought a less popular and probably inferior product.
Fruitcake said:
I'd find it very hard to buy anything other than Japanese. They are pretty bullet proof, and when something goes wrong they are so easy to work on. The lean six-sigma is there for all to see.
I do actually agree with you on that. Their companies are more efficient and you get much more for your money and a more reliable car. The thing is though I'm not buying a fridge or a TV - reliability is of no real interest to me and neither is value for money really - I want a car that's absorbing and satisfying to drive and suits my own tastes in terms of handling and responses. I recommend Jap cars to people wanting to drive from A to B, but for people like me the best thing to do is plonk your arse in as many cars as possible and buy the one (or two, or three!) you love driving the most and satisfies your practical requirements, which is what I've done. I'm not sure I feel any car is over or underrated, they just all satisfy different requirements for different people.RobM77 said:
do actually agree with you on that. Their companies are more efficient and you get much more for your money and a more reliable car. The thing is though I'm not buying a fridge or a TV - reliability is of no real interest to me and neither is value for money really - I want a car that's absorbing and satisfying to drive and suits my own tastes in terms of handling and responses. I recommend Jap cars to people wanting to drive from A to B, but for people like me the best thing to do is plonk your arse in as many cars as possible and buy the one (or two, or three!) you love driving the most and satisfies your practical requirements, which is what I've done. I'm not sure I feel any car is over or underrated, they just all satisfy different requirements for different people.
Depends. Obviously Honda have't bothered that much recently but the DC2 is a masterpiece. Honestly wasn't dissapointed with it after going back to one after the NSX. The B18 is just, well. After spending the thick end of 'too much' on an already breathed on K series it was never as sweet. I liked it but it never felt as sweet. I'd love to try one with ITB's, induction and map. When the Japenese try they tend to not only get it right, they succeed to the point that the average person can drive the product at 9.5/10ths and feel like they are in control.
That is engineering.
yonex said:
RobM77 said:
do actually agree with you on that. Their companies are more efficient and you get much more for your money and a more reliable car. The thing is though I'm not buying a fridge or a TV - reliability is of no real interest to me and neither is value for money really - I want a car that's absorbing and satisfying to drive and suits my own tastes in terms of handling and responses. I recommend Jap cars to people wanting to drive from A to B, but for people like me the best thing to do is plonk your arse in as many cars as possible and buy the one (or two, or three!) you love driving the most and satisfies your practical requirements, which is what I've done. I'm not sure I feel any car is over or underrated, they just all satisfy different requirements for different people.
Depends. Obviously Honda have't bothered that much recently but the DC2 is a masterpiece. Honestly wasn't dissapointed with it after going back to one after the NSX. The B18 is just, well. After spending the thick end of 'too much' on an already breathed on K series it was never as sweet. I liked it but it never felt as sweet. I'd love to try one with ITB's, induction and map. When the Japenese try they tend to not only get it right, they succeed to the point that the average person can drive the product at 9.5/10ths and feel like they are in control.
That is engineering.
The NSX is one of my favourite cars of all time. I've owned a mk1 MR2 and a Celica Carlos Sainz and loved the both. I was referring to BMW 1/3 series rivals though for people who love driving and prioritise handling.RobM77 said:
I suppose it's satisfying to say that and it makes you feel knowledgeable, but what would you do to a BMW to give it more substance? They've already got jolly close to 50:50 weight distribution, world beating engines, rear drive, good setups etc. They're certainly not 'The Ultimate Driving Machine', but what more do you want out of a family car? Serious question that - what more do you want? I guess they could be better built, but they're really not too bad. The steering feel could be better, but what modern ePAS cars have better feel? I find your statement confusing and to be honest rather illogical, or did you just say it to try and sound clever?...
I would want more weight over the driven wheels which they have addressed with x drive. I'd also like longer travel suspension for road comfort and bumpy road handling. Multi piston front calipers, rear LSD, addressed on some models. The combination of all on the one model appears rare on a BMW, hence why I have bought two Audis with air suspension and quattro, they address my concerns with BMW and do not appear to understeer on the road.john banks said:
RobM77 said:
I suppose it's satisfying to say that and it makes you feel knowledgeable, but what would you do to a BMW to give it more substance? They've already got jolly close to 50:50 weight distribution, world beating engines, rear drive, good setups etc. They're certainly not 'The Ultimate Driving Machine', but what more do you want out of a family car? Serious question that - what more do you want? I guess they could be better built, but they're really not too bad. The steering feel could be better, but what modern ePAS cars have better feel? I find your statement confusing and to be honest rather illogical, or did you just say it to try and sound clever?...
I would want more weight over the driven wheels which they have addressed with x drive. I'd also like longer travel suspension for road comfort and bumpy road handling. Multi piston front calipers, rear LSD, addressed on some models. The combination of all on the one model appears rare on a BMW, hence why I have bought two Audis with air suspension and quattro, they address my concerns with BMW and do not appear to understeer on the road.I would counter what you say though by saying that the weight acts down over the rear wheels when you accelerate, so provided you can actually accelerate and aren't on wet mud or snow, I think 50:50 with FE/RWD works very well, at least with <300bhp. I've certainly never wanted any more traction in any of the BMWs I've owned, except perhaps in the more powerful ones in the wet in tight turns, but that's a fairly unusual circumstance and I must admit I enjoy that sort of thing. My Lotuses have/had superb traction, but it's too much really and they don't have the inherent harmony and balance than a FE/FWD car has like a Caterham, Merc or BMW (other factors contribute towards me preferring them though).
The suspension though, yes, I agree with you on that one. They're pretty good on standard 16s/17s, but could definitely be better.
I must admit though with regard to Audis I do find both FWD and 4WD models understeer far too much for my tastes, and the suspension in non RS models is biased too much towards comfort at the expense of handling. I should point out though that I do drive quite quickly through corners and everyone has their own tastes. My tastes are for fun and involvement over pace. I'm far happier in a 130i for example than in an RS4.
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