RE: Enough exhaust noise already: Tell Me I'm Wrong

[Hungrymc]

vz-r_dave said:

do you know how to do an oil change?? thought not. there's your problem.

There surely won't be many on here who can't do an oil change? I'm not the most talented mechanic but I've done a couple of (admittedly relatively easy) engine swaps over the years - cosworth BOA into a capri (about 8 years back now) and a 2.0 pinto into a Morris Ital van (bloody hell, that was 20 years ago! You're making me feel old). My welding isn't the best but it's OK, I'm learning to play around with a laptop and OBD but can't do much yet - quite pleased to be reading and resetting fault codes and seeing the data. The are a few more little jobs and projects but they paint the picture of my limits as a mechanic (low compared to many but I can do a little bit)

I'm certainly not the most oily handed on here but I enjoy a tinker. So I don't think its 'my problem'.

Why jump to such quick conclusions Dave?

[LittleEnus]

Its all like real vs fake boobies.

Many will forgive the substance based on pleasing aesthetics and there are others that wont.

[Hungrymc]

fausTVR said:

I just want the real thing or what's the point? Today PH has saddened me.

I'm really not too impressed hearing that puffed up, preening ponce proudly parading along the avenue in his 'turn around damn you, and look at me' mobile. The contrived racket is not an enhancement, if only because of what it says about the owner.

Quite a few on here should just get their kicks the gaming world and leave the rest of us to enjoy the authentic world as it's meant to be.
I love the sound of a mighty engine very much, but this fakery is like giving the late Pavarotti a tambourine and a cheap megaphone to work with.

Rant over.

Serious question : where do you draw the line? Excessively noisy conventional exhaust? Switchable exhausts? Fueling on over run? Speakers in the exhaust?

I guess I ask the question because with current technology, it's quite possible to make all cars very quite without any real performance impact (a kilo or so of weight max) so in a way, is any fairly current car (the last 20/30 years) that is noisy a bit fake ? TVR could easily have used available tech to make the cars sound quiet like everything else - they chose to use noisy exhausts.

(As I've said before - I draw the line at speakers in the exhaust and I'd drive that GTS on quiet mode around town - so yes the clip is ridiculous, but the car can be much more subdued than that - journalist wanting to have something to write about)

[Hungrymc]

LittleEnus said:

Its all like real vs fake boobies.

Many will forgive the substance based on pleasing aesthetics and there are others that wont.

Apart from boobies are genetic / given by nature.

All cars are designed by people to a spec. So all cars have an exhaust note chosen by the engineers (or the marketing men).

I think the boobs analogy is more relevant to those who tamper with a car (adding an aftermarket exhaust perhaps for Aural reasons or Performance).

[fausTVR]

Hungrymc said:

fausTVR said:

I just want the real thing or what's the point? Today PH has saddened me.

I'm really not too impressed hearing that puffed up, preening ponce proudly parading along the avenue in his 'turn around damn you, and look at me' mobile. The contrived racket is not an enhancement, if only because of what it says about the owner.

Quite a few on here should just get their kicks the gaming world and leave the rest of us to enjoy the authentic world as it's meant to be.
I love the sound of a mighty engine very much, but this fakery is like giving the late Pavarotti a tambourine and a cheap megaphone to work with.

Rant over.

Serious question : where do you draw the line? Excessively noisy conventional exhaust? Switchable exhausts? Fueling on over run? Speakers in the exhaust?

I guess I ask the question because with current technology, it's quite possible to make all cars very quite without any real performance impact (a kilo or so of weight max) so in a way, is any fairly current car (the last 20/30 years) that is noisy a bit fake ? TVR could easily have used available tech to make the cars sound quiet like everything else - they chose to use noisy exhausts.

(As I've said before - I draw the line at speakers in the exhaust and I'd drive that GTS on quiet mode around town - so yes the clip is ridiculous, but the car can be much more subdued than that - journalist wanting to have something to write about)

Good question. It is a grey area because most, but not all, car exhausts will make a sound of some kind. For me, speakers, added fuelling and to a large extent switchable valving in the system are 'faking' it. The barry boys in fart-canned shoppers are merely housefly annoying because although it is only the tricked-up acoustics of the pipework its self, no racing car sounds like that, so the object is defeated in any case.

Yes, as you say, TVR could have made their cars far quieter had they chose to, but they only went as far as having generous pipe diameters and modest silencers to allow the engines to say their piece with a natural voice.

I saw an Aston 1-77 You-tube clip a few days ago. They made a big play on the start up sounds and it occurred to me that I was only hearing the exhaust and not the engine. The sound has become quite far removed from what I see as the reality of what we should hear.
I no longer hanker after owning a modern Ferarri because I simply don't enjoy their high pitched strangulated and shouty voice. It's a sound more akin to an amplified zip-wire than a big engine.

I'm admitting with all this that I got old and still want a powerful car to sound like a Spitfire's Merlin on full chat.

[V8ALV]

I tend to agree with those who think you are wrong on this one Dan. For what it's worth and to clear up few points on this blog I have a 981 Boxster S PDK with the switchable sports exhaust (same as on the GTS) and I can confirm the following; it makes no difference to the sound whether manual or PDK, the only advantage to PDK is the auto blip on downshift. Having the option to turn it OFF or ON at the press of a button is a godsend! If you don't want to sound like a moron and be the target of all those scorners who point and give you the bird, then turn it off. It's can be as quiet as Grandmas slippers around town and if want to wake the dead (in Sport Plus with exhaust set to Blurred Vision) then so be it. You've paid the extra, so use it. At least YOU have control. My R8 V8 Spyder was not switchable. To change between Normal and Slightly Raunchy, it took an hour each time to jack it up, remove a rear wheel and inner wheel arch, cap off the solenoid valve and reassemble. Fine if you wanted it louder all the time, but no control, and a pain in the a**se each time to reverse the process. Everybody knew you were coming all the time! As said by others, a big part of the enjoyment of any sports car and in particular, a roadster, is being able to hear the car working in the open air and the sound it makes is paramount to enjoying it fully. The exhaust does not blank out the sound of the engine. They work in harmony, both getting louder as you peak. The Boxster is a fabulous car to drive either way.

As we go forward into the unknown future of car wizardry, artificially inseminating visual and audible enjoyment will only become a bigger part of our daily diet as we move toward the silent era of electric power and our grandkids will stand amazed when they discover a video clip on some old forgotten media system called You Tube and hear a V8 or flat 6 exhaust roar for the first time and exclaim, "Grandad, did these still roam the earth when you were a lad" . I say relish the moment and never forget what we've lost already.

[charlie7777]

On my c-type (replica) I fit different systems according to usage (it only takes 15 mins to change). For ordinary use a sporty but reasonably silenced system that still sounds good and will not frighten the horses
For travelling to motoring events (Goodwood etc) just straight though pipes that are f...king loud. All the pops and bangs are entirely natural and just what the pistonheads enjoy...I think.

[Hungrymc]

fausTVR said:

Good question. It is a grey area because most, but not all, car exhausts will make a sound of some kind. For me, speakers, added fuelling and to a large extent switchable valving in the system are 'faking' it. The barry boys in fart-canned shoppers are merely housefly annoying because although it is only the tricked-up acoustics of the pipework its self, no racing car sounds like that, so the object is defeated in any case.

Yes, as you say, TVR could have made their cars far quieter had they chose to, but they only went as far as having generous pipe diameters and modest silencers to allow the engines to say their piece with a natural voice.

I saw an Aston 1-77 You-tube clip a few days ago. They made a big play on the start up sounds and it occurred to me that I was only hearing the exhaust and not the engine. The sound has become quite far removed from what I see as the reality of what we should hear.
I no longer hanker after owning a modern Ferarri because I simply don't enjoy their high pitched strangulated and shouty voice. It's a sound more akin to an amplified zip-wire than a big engine.

I'm admitting with all this that I got old and still want a powerful car to sound like a Spitfire's Merlin on full chat.

I wouldn't argue with much of that. I will say that I like the quiet button on my old 911 for early morning starts to protect the neighbours sleep.

It reminds me a bit of the F1 noise discussion. They were certainly striking but as revs had increased, started to become white noise to my ear. I like the current sound although it's relatively quiet.

We all draw the line differently on what constitutes the right noise and even acceptable noise. Generally, I'm glad that cars are a little more vocal again after years of cars being whisper quiet. I don't like the way the F-Type blips it's throttle for you to ensure a noisy start up. But it's a price I'll pay for the sound on full chat.

Don't think I'll ever accept speakers playing synthesized noise through the exhaust though.

[twoblacklines]

Bought e46 330ci recently.

Enjoyable to drive.

Got a lot more enjoyable with exhaust golf-tee mod done.

Spent nearly £1k making it how it should be renewing stuff and getting the performance back..

Last mod, yesturday, was getting a hacksaw and cutting out sections of the lower (pre-filter) parts of my airbox.

Now car sound amazing on WOT, almost golf vr6 induction note... and car is much more enjoyable to drive at the same speed on the same road.

Soon all our cars will be fully electric and silent....and boring.

[jimbop1]

Dan Trent said:

'For illustrative purposes' that vid was shot in Sport Plus, which puts the exhaust in Sport mode and does the over extravagant self blipping thing. And, again, to make the point I was being a bit binary with the throttle. On the way back there was actually a better demonstration on a road with speed bumps but the damned battery on the GoPro conked out.

It is a little more muted in standard mode but it still does a stupid little rumble of thunder when you come off the throttle.

I love the exhaust and induction noise on the Boxster - my specific gripe here is with the ridiculous overrun banging and popping. See also the DSG 'burp' on VW group cars, the '45 AMGs, Minis, Abarth 500s, etc...

But you're also more than welcome to tell me I'm talking out of my tailpipe!

Cheers!

Dan

I haven't read the whole thread but...

You wouldn't buy the GTS to be subtle and you wouldn't drive around a busy town in sports mode.

What exactly is fake about the noise?

I think it sounds awesome and so does the F Type.

[Fire99]

It's always going to be a war of technology, emissions etc going against the demand for 'pure' engine notes.
Some don't care if it's fake so long as it sounds 'good'.

Personally, I am very old-school on this and any exhaust sounds should be entirely 'analogue' and a (near as damn-it) natural response of the engines characteristics.
The fact is, the fake stuff is clever but you just know when it's real. there is a sense of natural harmonics rather than a technician deciding on the sound and then working the buttons to generate it.

Very hard in this day and age but it's all gone a bit horribly wrong when the sound is chosen and then technology is used to generate the chosen sound.

[anonymous-user]

It's a generational thing. The xbox etc generation get their kicks in a fake world so artificial sounds are fine with them. Engineering / acoustic integrity is about as relevant to younger people as worrying about apostrophes. To me, it's like one of those pianos you see that play themselves. Better than I ever could, but I'd never be happy with technology faking what I - or the engine in my car - couldn't do unaided. I'd feel a bit silly owning something that was set up to make an average engine sound like a supercar. It's the aural equivalent of putting 'M' badges on a boggo 3 series or 'RS4' badges on a 2.0 TDI. You're trying to pretend you've got something better than you have. Sad, sad, sad.

Back in the real world, I have an old modded n/a car with a custom-made system set up on Bob Watson's rolling road to give optimal results etc. The priority in the engine build etc was to maximise torque / power for real-world driving. It sounds savage too (tickover sets off car alarms), but that was just a bonus. If the engine is right, it'll never need any b/s. If the engine is dull, it'll need all the help it can get.

[jimbop1]

tommy1973s said:

It's a generational thing. The xbox etc generation get their kicks in a fake world so artificial sounds are fine with them. Engineering / acoustic integrity is about as relevant to younger people as worrying about apostrophes. To me, it's like one of those pianos you see that play themselves. Better than I ever could, but I'd never be happy with technology faking what I - or the engine in my car - couldn't do unaided. I'd feel a bit silly owning something that was set up to make an average engine sound like a supercar. It's the aural equivalent of putting 'M' badges on a boggo 3 series or 'RS4' badges on a 2.0 TDI. You're trying to pretend you've got something better than you have. Sad, sad, sad.

Back in the real world, I have an old modded n/a car with a custom-made system set up on Bob Watson's rolling road to give optimal results etc. The priority in the engine build etc was to maximise torque / power for real-world driving. It sounds savage too (tickover sets off car alarms), but that was just a bonus. If the engine is right, it'll never need any b/s. If the engine is dull, it'll need all the help it can get.

So the GTS and F Type are trying to pretend they are better than they actually are because of how they sound?

Does the custom made system on your n/a car include a big bore, straight though exhaust? Isn't that kind of making out your car is better than it is?

[Hungrymc]

Fire99 said:

It's always going to be a war of technology, emissions etc going against the demand for 'pure' engine notes.
Some don't care if it's fake so long as it sounds 'good'.

Personally, I am very old-school on this and any exhaust sounds should be entirely 'analogue' and a (near as damn-it) natural response of the engines characteristics.
The fact is, the fake stuff is clever but you just know when it's real. there is a sense of natural harmonics rather than a technician deciding on the sound and then working the buttons to generate it.

Very hard in this day and age but it's all gone a bit horribly wrong when the sound is chosen and then technology is used to generate the chosen sound.

This is getting closer to my view. I think it's down to the subtlety of what you call fake. To me, as long as the noise is generated by combustion, I'm ok with it (the GTS is a bit too much while pottering through town - I'd have it on quiet mode).

When the exhaust note is totally synthesized by a speaker, far too much for me, couldn't live with myself.

I think your comment about natural harmonics is a little romantic as the noise and the natural frequencies etc that create it have been engineered in for many many years now. However, again, if it's genuine combustion noise, I'm ok with it.

So can anyone clarify what system the porsche uses ? Is it an exhaust speaker playing a synthesized sound as is becoming common on Audis and BMWs or is it a combination of silencer bypasses and fueling?

[CJP80]

Every car since the invention of the exhaust has had some form of acoustic engineering by slowing/routing the gas, so the points being made about fakery surely apply equally to all cars since the invention of the combustion engine.

Re. the GTS, it's all exhaust gas, although the pops and crackles may have their origins in the ECU by retarding timing, etc. So in that sense they are contrived.

Additionally, there's some piping of intake noise to the cabin (through an air channel into the rear bulkhead). Basically, so you can hear more intake roar.

Edited by CJP80 on Monday 3rd November 08:59

[Hungrymc]

CJP80 said:

Every car since the invention of the exhaust has had some form of acoustic engineering by slowing/routing the gas, so the points being made about fakery surely apply equally to all cars since the invention of the combustion engine.

Re. the GTS, it's all exhaust gas, although the pops and crackles may have their origins in the ECU by retarding timing, etc, so in that sense the are contrived.

Additionally, there's some piping of intake noise to the cabin (through an air channel into the rear bulkhead. Basically, so you can hear more intake roar.

Edited by CJP80 on Monday 3rd November 08:56

Thank you. In that case, the Porsche stays on the right side of the line for me.

Totally agree ref the rest of your post. There is almost the suggestion that other cars are somehow 'natural' in their noise. Exhausts noise has been engineered (based on marketing info) for many, many years.

I'll still say that speakers in the exhaust send a bit of a shiver down my spine. Maybe I'll learn to live with it.

[CJP80]

Hungrymc said:

I'll still say that speakers in the exhaust send a bit of a shiver down my spine. Maybe I'll learn to live with it.

Which car?

[Falsey]

In a short video like that, it sounds awesome, but as someone who has had a noisy bangy exhaust - it really gets old.

I had a Focus ST that I thought the standard exhaust setup was too quiet on, so I ended up upgrading to a bespoke 4 inch twin pipe setup with a resonator to make it quieter. When you are in the mood and on it, nothing beats the bangs and pops and growls. When you are trying to be a little more under the radar, having an exhaust that sounds like a firework display on lift off gets very grating. Or coming home at 2am and trying not to wake the neighbours whilst the back of the car is going off like a machine gun.

Fun when you want it, embarrassing when you dont. Then again, I think the DSG 'burp' on my current VAG product is great, has me grinning every time - though it is fairly rare.

Currently in the process of picking an exhaust upgrade for my Scirocco, but Im keen to avoid the same situation. A resonated Miltek might be just the ticket..

Edited by Falsey on Monday 3rd November 14:37

[Flat6]

My son's doing work experience at a local Ferrari specialist and told me about a sports exhaust they'd just fitted to a customers F12 being the "best thing he's ever heard"

They've now added a clip to Youtube..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fCYRSqdJEk

This is REAL noise, and I don't ever think I'd tire of it...

[rogerhudson]

Silence is golden.
The days of controlling revs and gears by sound have gone, haven't they?
A ride around town in a hybrid toyota would be better if they used better hi-fi.