RE: Shed Of The Week: Mazda RX-8

[otolith]

TREMAiNE said:

I believe they were around the same price (give or take £1,000). RX-8 sold better.

More cars sold in 2004 than the entire combined sales of 350Z and 370Z. Having had both (we've still got the Nissan) I preferred the Mazda.

[TREMAiNE]

J4CKO said:

TREMAiNE said:

St John Smythe said:

Escy said:

The market says otherwise, hence there are so many available for peanuts. People don't want them. Even cars with a rebuilt engine can be had for sub 2k.

I respect Mazda for continuing with the wankel but it's flogging a dead horse.

This, you can't argue with facts. Was the 350z a similar price when new?

I believe they were around the same price (give or take £1,000). RX-8 sold better.

The 350Z only has 2 seats, the RX8 has 4, at the time the RX8 didnt have the reputation for poor fuel economy and poor reliability it does now, so of course it sold better.

Entry level now for a 350Z is five grand, they arent totally immune from engine problems like any car, but it is a rare exception rather than par for the course.

I think an RX8 like this would be a good buy only for someone with the skills /space to DIY an engine rebuild, I suspect that with the number like this for sale, may be even able to get one cheaper.

The RX-8 would have been known for poor fuel economy at that time - even Mazda only quote 20-25mpg on the high power version. Though being as practical as it is with 4 seats, big boot and rear doors obviously helped it sell so well.

An 8 grand RX-8 R3 is going to do you a lot better than an 8 grand 350Z too. Buy one of the later ones and you're going to have fewer issues long term - plus the R3's are rising in value has the older ones are dropping more and more.

[Rick1.8t]

Eventually when they are all toast they will become the choice of enthusiasts for second / track cars and the like, as the engine going pop is inevitable I can only see the price falling through the floor for non-rebuilt cars.

Will make a nice business for someone willing to buy them cheap, rebuild engine, freshen the car up a bit and sell with a 3yr engine warranty.

Can anybody thing of a single other mainstream (so not rx7 etc) car that has such a flawed engine design, realistically it is completely horrendous what Mazda have done to their customers, the cars are basically total scrap once even semi-decent mileage is put into them, especially to average joe who the car was marketed to.... Hang your head in shame for this one Mazda, I don't care how well it drives.

Edited by Rick1.8t on Saturday 1st November 13:11

[TREMAiNE]

Rick1.8t said:

Can anybody thing of a single other mainstream (so not rx7 etc)

Why not the RX-7?

IIRC, before the MX-5 came out the RX-7 was the best selling sports car in the world. It went through 3 generations and was in production for 25 years. Over 800,000 RX-7's wer sold in that period and it took the MX-5 almost 18 years to surpass that despite being considerably cheaper to buy and appealing to a wider market.

I agree that the RX-8 marketting was all wrong and attempts to sort problems out in the UK were dire (in the US you get +5 years engine warranty on top of the original 3 IIRC) - but its a great engine - in a world currently filled with mundane new cars, constant downsizing and other eco nonsense I'd welcoeme a new rotary.

Edited by TREMAiNE on Saturday 1st November 13:21

Edited by TREMAiNE on Saturday 1st November 15:08

[Rick1.8t]

TREMAiNE said:

Why not the RX-7?

IIRC, before the MX-5 came out the RX-7 was the best selling sports car in the world. It went through 3 generations and was in production for 18 years. Over 800,000 RX-7's wer sold in that period and it took the MX-5 almost 21 years to surpass that despite being considerably cheaper to buy and appealing to a wider market.

I agree that the RX-8 marketting was all wrong and attempts to sort problems out in the UK were dire (in the US you get +5 years engine warranty on top of the original 3 IIRC) - but its a great engine - in a world currently filled with mundane new cars, constant downsizing and other eco nonsense I'd welcoeme a new rotary.

Edited by TREMAiNE on Saturday 1st November 13:21

I honestly wasn't aware the RX7 was one of the best selling sports cars in the world but that makes Mazda's position even worse in my opinion especially as it was a car marketed more towards the masses.

I don't car how many years warranty the offered in the USA, the problem was still there.

How on earth you can state it is a 'great engine' is beyond comprehension, it may perform well when running but in anything except real exotica and race cars reliability to at least some extent is expected, not inevitable failure well under 100k miles in most cases.

I totally agree about how mundane many new cars are etc but that's no excuse for selling utter crap, and that's what it is - junk.

[TREMAiNE]

Rick1.8t said:

TREMAiNE said:

Why not the RX-7?

IIRC, before the MX-5 came out the RX-7 was the best selling sports car in the world. It went through 3 generations and was in production for 25 years. Over 800,000 RX-7's wer sold in that period and it took the MX-5 almost 18 years to surpass that despite being considerably cheaper to buy and appealing to a wider market.

I agree that the RX-8 marketting was all wrong and attempts to sort problems out in the UK were dire (in the US you get +5 years engine warranty on top of the original 3 IIRC) - but its a great engine - in a world currently filled with mundane new cars, constant downsizing and other eco nonsense I'd welcoeme a new rotary.

Edited by TREMAiNE on Saturday 1st November 13:21

I honestly wasn't aware the RX7 was one of the best selling sports cars in the world but that makes Mazda's position even worse in my opinion especially as it was a car marketed more towards the masses.

I don't car how many years warranty the offered in the USA, the problem was still there.

How on earth you can state it is a 'great engine' is beyond comprehension, it may perform well when running but in anything except real exotica and race cars reliability to at least some extent is expected, not inevitable failure well under 100k miles in most cases.

I totally agree about how mundane many new cars are etc but that's no excuse for selling utter crap, and that's what it is - junk.

The big problem is owners failing to understand the engine. Its a high maintenance engine. If you're going to own a rotary car you need to learn about the engine and how to properly care for it - the vast majority of problems with the RX-8 was the owners didn't take care of them and now they're dying.
There were recalls here and there for some of the earlier cars to fit faster starter motors (but then tons of cars get recalled for small things) but the rest of these problems were due to neglect - your average joe assuming running RX-8 was the same as running a Focus.

The biggest drawback with the rotary engine is the rotary tips wearing - but these days its not much of a problem. £500 every 60-80 thousand miles is hardly ruinous - the cost of Cambelt change for many piston powered cars.

Mazda have hardly sold utter crap - though I will say as fantastic as the RX-8 is it was marketed in completely the wrong way and arguably its the marketing and pricing which has ultimately lead to its problems.

The rotary engine has had absolutely no money put into R&D since its conception in comparison to piston engiens, yet Madza have still managed to sell millions of Rotary powered saloons and coupes over the last 50 years. Supposedly they're now squeezing 300bhp out of the RX-8's Renesis engine. Find me another 1.3 litre road car engine with 300bhp. Its got its drawbacks, but to consider it to be utter crap is ridiculous.

Edited by TREMAiNE on Saturday 1st November 15:08

[matty6660]

I bought an RX8 for £700 with the hot start problem. Mint condition in every other way.

Bought a £90 uprated 2kw starter motor off ebay and fit it in 15 minutes. Cured the problem completely. Simple and cheap. There's no need to let your car go for £1000 because of the "hot start" problem.

I know it's not a long term fix but it will give you many many thousands of miles perfect starting without needing to bother with the engine rebuild lark.




LOL @ these idiots selling their car wayyy too cheap because they think the hot start problem costs loads of £££ to fix haha

Edited by matty6660 on Saturday 1st November 14:54

Edited by matty6660 on Saturday 1st November 14:56

[daytona365]

Surely a 2kw motor would hardly move the thing ?

[Rick1.8t]

matty6660 said:

P.S. The only reason I got MY car so cheap is because the seller was moving to Australia the next day and needed sale

I would imagine you got it that cheap as your are in an informed minority who is willing to but a band aid starter motor on a car that may or may not start when hot and could be due an engine rebuild in the next few months....

The 'public' wouldn't touch it with a barge pole as it is impending 2k engine build or the scrap yard (yea, you can rebuild it yourself but most people struggle with brake pads, don't they.....)

I am not being an arse, I actually love the RX8 and its a tempting prospect to get one for pennies, get the engine done and have a rather nice car for £3K but I still maintain that in terms of the product it was sold as it is a total pile of crap, not everybody is a car-nerd.

Nice looking car by the way, lovely colour.

Edited by Rick1.8t on Saturday 1st November 14:57

[matty6660]

Rick1.8t said:

I am not being an arse, I actually love the RX8 and its a tempting prospect to get one for pennies, get the engine done and have a rather nice car for £3K but I still maintain that in terms of the product it was sold as it is a total pile of crap, not everybody is a car-nerd.

Nice looking car by the way, lovely colour.

Edited by Rick1.8t on Saturday 1st November 14:57

I would recommend you do that and don't believe all the people making a mountain out of a molehill. At the end of the day the hot start problem is usually caused by low compression. But if you buy an RX8 for peanuts and rebuild the engine yourself, you are still going to save money.

And thank you. The colour sold itself to me lol

[Escy]

TREMAiNE said:

The big problem is owners failing to understand the engine. Its a high maintenance engine. If you're going to own a rotary car you need to learn about the engine and how to properly care for it - the vast majority of problems with the RX-8 was the owners didn't take care of them and now they're dying.
There were recalls here and there for some of the earlier cars to fit faster starter motors (but then tons of cars get recalled for small things) but the rest of these problems were due to neglect - your average joe assuming running RX-8 was the same as running a Focus.

I have to love this... It's not the shortcomings of Mazda design, it's everyone else's fault.

I'd understand if a company like Caterham used an engine that required constant attention as you'd expect enthusiastic owners to understand the needs. Mazda however stacked them high and sold them cheap to joe public, people who rightly assumed a car made by a mainstream manufacturer should be able to withstand the same amount of care they'd show to a Ford Focus (not much). It doesn't, it's flawed.

For me the biggest problem isn't the reliability, it's the MPG:BHP ratio.

Edited by Escy on Saturday 1st November 16:15

[irocfan]

St John Smythe said:

Escy said:

The market says otherwise, hence there are so many available for peanuts. People don't want them. Even cars with a rebuilt engine can be had for sub 2k.

I respect Mazda for continuing with the wankel but it's flogging a dead horse.

This, you can't argue with facts. Was the 350z a similar price when new?

to put it another way people view the Crossfire as a massive depreciator but the RX is even worse

[renorti]

It's not a bad car to drive,but with heavy running costs {fuel,tax} and not the most reliable engine,most people don't want one.
so they go for peanuts.i,ve bought a few to break for parts ,all non runners and hardly broke even on them.{from £250-£400}
pretty much a worthless car.shame.

[talksthetorque]

Didn't they punt a load of these out as company cars to people who wanted a sports car, but previously couldn't because of the fairly widespread 'four or five doors' rule?
What's the co2 btw?

There must be a way of breaking the dead ones for profit. Are the seats ultra comfy/stylish for the t5 owners?
Are they mainstream sized for wheels and tyres?
Not really for me, unless I had time to buy duff spare motors, refurb them, and swap them out as and when needed.

[Escy]

They are worth nothing as parts as there are so many dead ones the market is saturated so prices are dirt cheap.

[TREMAiNE]

Escy said:

I have to love this... It's not the shortcomings of Mazda design, it's everyone else's fault.

I like how you didn't quote the part where I've said its Mazda's fault for marketing the car how they did.

[IanMorewood]

I like the rx8, the wife doesnt, so that's saved me at least £3k.

[Escy]

TREMAiNE said:

Escy said:

I have to love this... It's not the shortcomings of Mazda design, it's everyone else's fault.

I like how you didn't quote the part where I've said its Mazda's fault for marketing the car how they did.

How should they have marketed it?

[TREMAiNE]

Escy said:

TREMAiNE said:

Escy said:

I have to love this... It's not the shortcomings of Mazda design, it's everyone else's fault.

I like how you didn't quote the part where I've said its Mazda's fault for marketing the car how they did.

How should they have marketed it?

Towards rotary enthusiasts.
I've said it before and I'll say it again as much as I love my RX-8 and as handy as the rear doors and seats are, as well as the big boot, I don't think they should have bothered with that. It should have been a 2 seater and lighter. Fuel economy would have been slightly better, less non-petrolheads would have bought them and they'd have a better reputation.

People don't look back at the RX-7 and say "what a joke" like they do with the RX-8 despite them having very similar engines - largely because it had a much higher price tag (priced to compete with Porsches of the same era rather than being a budget, entry level sports car) and was only really bought by motoring enthusiasts. Yet, despite the fact the RX-8's Renesis engine improved on the biggest flaw of the RX-7's 13b engine (apex seals) it all ended the way it did, with lots of terribly maintained cars largely down to how it was sold.


If you're genuinely interested, see my post here and check out the last 2 paragraphs where I look at specifically where the RX-8 went wrong and also what would be the best application for the next production rotary:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[Gary C]

Glad I had one, but not too upset I don't any more.

To heavy on fuel for a daily (about one gallon a day driving to work and back when I only live 8 miles away !)

Great car, not as fast as 230hp sounds but unique engine sound, great handling, good practically.

Bad bits, the rear lsd and the engine. You always worry about it. Every start you wonder if it took slightly longer, every time you fill up you think I only just did this.

Two major flaws for a daily driver four seater.

Mine sold after 12months when the tax came due and it was more than the insurance.