Why is the Lotus Esprit not appreciating in value??
Discussion
Impasse said:
A "late" V8 in 1995? I detect something amiss or an example of time travel.
The sweet spot for V8s was the 1998MY V8GT which encapsulated many mechanical and aesthetic improvements from the early V8 cars. The 2002MY onwards cars are considered to be the late cars and are a little portly but look more grown up.
My mistake - it was a four cylinder. Whatever year it was, it was utterly rank. Driving down the M40 with the wipers doing a dismal job of clearing the screen and - guess what - a water leak past the B post or wherever. Got into the Alfa with a sigh of relief!The sweet spot for V8s was the 1998MY V8GT which encapsulated many mechanical and aesthetic improvements from the early V8 cars. The 2002MY onwards cars are considered to be the late cars and are a little portly but look more grown up.
A pity the Elan didn't save the day for them, a cracking wee thing that was. The fact that the FWD got the Lotus bores coughing into their real ales was a bonus.
iSore said:
Impasse said:
A "late" V8 in 1995? I detect something amiss or an example of time travel.
The sweet spot for V8s was the 1998MY V8GT which encapsulated many mechanical and aesthetic improvements from the early V8 cars. The 2002MY onwards cars are considered to be the late cars and are a little portly but look more grown up.
My mistake - it was a four cylinder. Whatever year it was, it was utterly rank. Driving down the M40 with the wipers doing a dismal job of clearing the screen and - guess what - a water leak past the B post or wherever. Got into the Alfa with a sigh of relief!The sweet spot for V8s was the 1998MY V8GT which encapsulated many mechanical and aesthetic improvements from the early V8 cars. The 2002MY onwards cars are considered to be the late cars and are a little portly but look more grown up.
A pity the Elan didn't save the day for them, a cracking wee thing that was. The fact that the FWD got the Lotus bores coughing into their real ales was a bonus.
iSore said:
...Got into the Alfa with a sigh of relief!
Which, if it was raining, would have been dissolving into rust faster than the Esprit could clear its windscreen.Rather laughable criticising Lotus build quality, when you own an AlfaSud... care to hazard a guess at the ratio of 70's/80's Alfas still on the road, compared to number built, against the same ratio for old Esprits?
Stelvio1 said:
So in conclusion you have nothing creditable to add to this thread
Or credible. 
Stelvio1 said:
iSore said:
My mistake - it was a four cylinder. Whatever year it was, it was utterly rank. Driving down the M40 with the wipers doing a dismal job of clearing the screen and - guess what - a water leak past the B post or wherever. Got into the Alfa with a sigh of relief!
A pity the Elan didn't save the day for them, a cracking wee thing that was. The fact that the FWD got the Lotus bores coughing into their real ales was a bonus.
So in conclusion you have nothing creditable to add to this thread A pity the Elan didn't save the day for them, a cracking wee thing that was. The fact that the FWD got the Lotus bores coughing into their real ales was a bonus.
(Although it's worth pointing out that the Esprit only has a single wiper so the claims of the wipers doing a dismal job of clearing the screen and the other "mistakes" lead me to suspect this may be a fantasy post.)
MintSprint said:
Link from the days before Top Gear was presented by a troupe of clowns.
Even by modern standards the Esprit is surprisingly capable in handling terms, so I suspect that the 'active' car would be a remain a revelation.
Thanks for that. A real blast from the past - type walk down memory lane. Work then that has probably kept Lotus in business today.Even by modern standards the Esprit is surprisingly capable in handling terms, so I suspect that the 'active' car would be a remain a revelation.
fatjon said:
bqf said:
Can't be arsed to read 8 pages - has anyone said 'Because they're s
te' yet?
Yes, me, several pages ago.te' yet?t" by modern standards that was designed in the '70s?Have either of you guys driven many esprits? and its competitors of the day?
In terms of reviews, yes Evo and other have written some more complimentary articles recently that go some way to addressing the overly negative press the car had in the day. TBH lotus PR were their own worst enemies at the time - press cars that were criticised for sounding dull when there was a sports exhaust option available .. but the press cars never seemed to have those fitted? You can also forgive the journo's to some extent too, i mean, its easy to be swayed by the glamour of a trip to maranello and overlook the F355's comparative lack of torque when driven on a sun drenched fiorano. I can imagine a trip up to a damp Norfolk to drive a new esprit on a greasy Hethel test track would have been difficult to muster the same level of enthusiasm.
Also, there so much confusion in this thread as people seem to be talking about "esprits" without any reference to the development that went on from the earliest 70s na guiguiaro cars to the last of the v8s. Its a bit like saying 911's are s
t - er which ones? FWIW Evo in 2009 put the esprit (sport 350) at #34 in the 100 greatest drivers cars.
"Criminally underrated. The V8 is super light and compact so you have the benefit of a mid-engine car without the mass of a big engine. Absolutely brilliant balance adjustable by a tweak of the foot and the merest touch of the steering makes it one of the most involving drivers’ cars ever. Light overall too, which gives it good performance. Shame there isn’t anything like it today. " http://www.evo.co.uk/features/features/239695/100_...
They also have the F355 in that list too, at number 93.
Impasse said:
The sweet spot for V8s was the 1998MY V8GT which encapsulated many mechanical and aesthetic improvements from the early V8 cars.
Yep, i'd agree with that. I had a GT3 then a V8-GT. The latter had all of the weight saving and handling finesse of the GT3 but with the punch of the v8. Both were post 98 cars with the improved interior, wiper link, gear link etc.I actually tweaked my V8-gt with the sport350 ecu, mag wheels, AP brakes, eibach/bilstein suspension for a bit more torque and some weight reduction. Still really miss that car..:
There really is some tosh in this thread.
Esprit was a stunning car in its time with astounding levels of performance. The poor build quality stuff is mostly nonsense. By the early 1980s the S2.2 and S3 models were good reliable cars running with a galvanised chassis and double wishbone suspension. With any Lotus, the more Toyota there is in it the better - and that was the time when Lotus and Toyota working very closely. Both Esprit and Excel were significantly Toyota-ised and the arrangements only came to an end when GM bought Lotus in the late 1980s.
Esprit can be tricky to work on because of its low, wedgy profile but is no more difficult than any other mid-engine sportscar. Many of them need the engine taken out for any significant maintenance work.
Truth is that GM's takeover of Lotus, where Toyota got kicked in the nuts, was almost as disastrous as when the UK government destroyed MG Rover by kicking Honda in the nuts.
Esprit was a stunning car in its time with astounding levels of performance. The poor build quality stuff is mostly nonsense. By the early 1980s the S2.2 and S3 models were good reliable cars running with a galvanised chassis and double wishbone suspension. With any Lotus, the more Toyota there is in it the better - and that was the time when Lotus and Toyota working very closely. Both Esprit and Excel were significantly Toyota-ised and the arrangements only came to an end when GM bought Lotus in the late 1980s.
Esprit can be tricky to work on because of its low, wedgy profile but is no more difficult than any other mid-engine sportscar. Many of them need the engine taken out for any significant maintenance work.
Truth is that GM's takeover of Lotus, where Toyota got kicked in the nuts, was almost as disastrous as when the UK government destroyed MG Rover by kicking Honda in the nuts.
rob.e said:
It saddens me to see such comments posted on PH. This is a site that is meant to celebrate driving and sports cars and to see an icon like the esprit rubished in such a dismissive manner is a real shame. Sure the esprit is not perfect - point out the shortcomings if you want (not like it hasn't been done before) but consider it in the context of its contemporaries.. what would you consider to not be "st" by modern standards that was designed in the '70s?
Have either of you guys driven many esprits? and its competitors of the day?
In terms of reviews, yes Evo and other have written some more complimentary articles recently that go some way to addressing the overly negative press the car had in the day. TBH lotus PR were their own worst enemies at the time - press cars that were criticised for sounding dull when there was a sports exhaust option available .. but the press cars never seemed to have those fitted? You can also forgive the journo's to some extent too, i mean, its easy to be swayed by the glamour of a trip to maranello and overlook the F355's comparative lack of torque when driven on a sun drenched fiorano. I can imagine a trip up to a damp Norfolk to drive a new esprit on a greasy Hethel test track would have been difficult to muster the same level of enthusiasm.
Also, there so much confusion in this thread as people seem to be talking about "esprits" without any reference to the development that went on from the earliest 70s na guiguiaro cars to the last of the v8s. Its a bit like saying 911's are st - er which ones?
FWIW Evo in 2009 put the esprit (sport 350) at #34 in the 100 greatest drivers cars.
"Criminally underrated. The V8 is super light and compact so you have the benefit of a mid-engine car without the mass of a big engine. Absolutely brilliant balance adjustable by a tweak of the foot and the merest touch of the steering makes it one of the most involving drivers’ cars ever. Light overall too, which gives it good performance. Shame there isn’t anything like it today. " http://www.evo.co.uk/features/features/239695/100_...
They also have the F355 in that list too, at number 93.
Well said sirt" by modern standards that was designed in the '70s?Have either of you guys driven many esprits? and its competitors of the day?
In terms of reviews, yes Evo and other have written some more complimentary articles recently that go some way to addressing the overly negative press the car had in the day. TBH lotus PR were their own worst enemies at the time - press cars that were criticised for sounding dull when there was a sports exhaust option available .. but the press cars never seemed to have those fitted? You can also forgive the journo's to some extent too, i mean, its easy to be swayed by the glamour of a trip to maranello and overlook the F355's comparative lack of torque when driven on a sun drenched fiorano. I can imagine a trip up to a damp Norfolk to drive a new esprit on a greasy Hethel test track would have been difficult to muster the same level of enthusiasm.
Also, there so much confusion in this thread as people seem to be talking about "esprits" without any reference to the development that went on from the earliest 70s na guiguiaro cars to the last of the v8s. Its a bit like saying 911's are s
t - er which ones? FWIW Evo in 2009 put the esprit (sport 350) at #34 in the 100 greatest drivers cars.
"Criminally underrated. The V8 is super light and compact so you have the benefit of a mid-engine car without the mass of a big engine. Absolutely brilliant balance adjustable by a tweak of the foot and the merest touch of the steering makes it one of the most involving drivers’ cars ever. Light overall too, which gives it good performance. Shame there isn’t anything like it today. " http://www.evo.co.uk/features/features/239695/100_...
They also have the F355 in that list too, at number 93.
swisstoni said:
Impasse said:
Stelvio1 said:
But the good examples are very much increasing in value
Why do some folk post such uninformed, generalised rubbish on here?
Some wonderful Esprit pictures on here- now where's the one of the bikini blonde standing alongside the white S3 Turbo in the centre of Norwich....
Why do some folk post such uninformed, generalised rubbish on here?
Some wonderful Esprit pictures on here
- now where's the one of the bikini blonde standing alongside the white S3 Turbo in the centre of Norwich....
MintSprint said:
iSore said:
...Got into the Alfa with a sigh of relief!
Which, if it was raining, would have been dissolving into rust faster than the Esprit could clear its windscreen.Rather laughable criticising Lotus build quality, when you own an AlfaSud... care to hazard a guess at the ratio of 70's/80's Alfas still on the road, compared to number built, against the same ratio for old Esprits?
Stelvio1 said:
So in conclusion you have nothing creditable to add to this thread
Or credible. Old seventies Alfas like mine were junk as well. But I like 'em. Some folk also like a crap Lotus.
Ozzie Osmond said:
The poor build quality stuff is mostly nonsense.
By the standards of the mid 1980s, I don't think my Esprit is too bad.The paint finish is good. Despite being an ergonomic catastrophe, the interior is nicely trimmed.
Probably the worst aspect of the build was the hopeless BL switchgear, latches and handles.
But it is a very old car. And it feels it. It may have looked space age and cutting edge when it was introduced, but until the Turbo was introduced, the Esprit was no more mechanically sophisticated than an Elan or Europa.
I would love to drive a GT3 or a V8, just to see how much Lotus managed to develop the Esprit. I drove a fairly early Stephens Esprit, but was underwhelmed by the Renault box. The fuel injection also took away all of the snarly inlet roar, leaving the engine sounding like any other dull 4 pot and the jelly mould styling lacked the brash drama of the Giugiaro wedge.
Pat H said:
... the jelly mould styling lacked the brash drama of the Giugiaro wedge.
I thought that when we were at the Lotus Elan day at Brands Hatch. I preferred the look of the Guigiaro cars to the Stevens ones, they just looked better resolved and more exotic. In pictures it's the other way around for me, but in the flesh...What the hell! an Esprit Topic that I've missed!
I'm going to declare my interest straight away. I love Esprits. Like properly love them, all versions of them.
One thing to mention is that the Esprit ran from 1976 to 2004 and in that time changed massively. Its to short sighted to tar them all with the same brush. Shortcomings on earlier cars were rectified but this does not make the later car automatically the best. The linky below gives an outline of the models' history;
http://www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/models.html
Bringing this back to what the OP asked why are they not appreciating - they are. I bought my S3 Na at the age of 21 for £8250 from a reputable dealer and sold it (abroad) a couple of months ago for around £15,000. It is still one of the most fun cars I have ever driven. Very light, revy and compliant. The handling was sublime and it seemed to have that apex to apex flow that only Lotus know how. It was at home gliding down country lanes and had a fantastic responsive "stamp on it" feel, both in braking and accelerating.
On tour in Belgium:
I had always wanted an S3 Na (they are supposedly more reliable and simpler beasts) and loved every minute of driving it. True it let me down every once in a while, irritating little gremlins like a doggy ignition module etc... all cheap fixes. well......I did shred the crown Wheel & pinion though which in the 160 bhp Na is quite an achievement! But parts were relatively available (apart from CWP's!) and the network of dedicated specialists very helpful.
There was always a sense of occasion to driving it and the car always provoked great reactions. I miss that car dearly and were it not for the absurd costs of buying a home in this country it would still be on my drive!
With under 800 of the S3 Na's made they are chronically rare and offer a superb driving experience. Hugely undervalued cars in my eyes. Perhaps the rarity is one of the things hampering these cars? perhaps the fact that they have only have 160 bhp goes against them but they "feel" quick enough.
Que my next Esprit.... an 81 Dry Sump Turbo ... In "that Colour"
I bought the Turbo some time ago now and ran the two cars side by side for just under two years. Damn that got pricey! Although It was great having a choice of which 1981 esprit to use (they were incidentally both the same year)
They are incredibly different to drive, the turbo is weighty slow and lumbering till you prod the throttle then its off and gone, but only over 4000rpm, beneath that its a cumbersome beast. The total opposite from the Na but get it on a slip road or a series of flowing twisties and it still has the capacity to scare and delight with its pace. I wouldn't advocate going mad though as the brakes are decidedly 1980's! technology has certainly moved on. But its still quick. Others have pointed out when new it was one of the quickest accelerating cars one could buy.
Incidentally they made more Turbos; my Bronze car is a Dry Sumped version (one of the first 140 or so after which they then moved to Wet sump set-ups) and one of only 45 in Copper/Bronze These are very sought after. It seems to follow that adage of the first and the last are the most valuable. But still not valuable in Supercar prices. There is no doubting the Esprits credentials against its contempory rivals. I have been offered over 30K for the car but for the meantime its not for sale.... I bought it for Single figures
I do think that the Esprit Market is VERY limited...demand is simply not that high. They do tend to be enthusiasts cars, bought largely by Lotus heads. But they do get under your skin. There are also a huge amount of stinkers out there. They are relatively cheap to buy but pricey to maintain, as a result many have been the subject of horrible botches, there are so many dogs out there. Good Esprits tend to get sold very quickly. There was an S4s on pistonheads that went a day within advertising on here..... I tried to enquire!
In my view the Esprit (specifically the S3/Turbo) provides in so many areas;
- It has great performance, being pokey but mated with that sublime Lotus magic.
- It looks superb, proper dramatic, low slung and wide, the archetypal supercar... a poor mans countach if you will
-It certainly has a sense of occasion and is on the whole met with smiles and kind/enquiring remarks. it still surprises me how many people know what it is etc....
- Links to a certain Secret agent
- many maintenance issues can be attempted (but not always completed) at home. Some fixes are eyewateringly pricey for some obsene rockinghorse poo part to others that can be found over the counter for pittance.
- its a true thoroughbred from one of the worlds greatest car makers (rose tinted specs here?!?!?!) and British!
They can be costly to run and ruin you but that harks back to the good car v bad car comment above. Plus most cars can haemorrhage money either way... The Esprit is a motoring icon and one that deserves its day in the limelight....but hopefully not before ive bought a few more!
I'm going to declare my interest straight away. I love Esprits. Like properly love them, all versions of them.
One thing to mention is that the Esprit ran from 1976 to 2004 and in that time changed massively. Its to short sighted to tar them all with the same brush. Shortcomings on earlier cars were rectified but this does not make the later car automatically the best. The linky below gives an outline of the models' history;
http://www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/models.html
Bringing this back to what the OP asked why are they not appreciating - they are. I bought my S3 Na at the age of 21 for £8250 from a reputable dealer and sold it (abroad) a couple of months ago for around £15,000. It is still one of the most fun cars I have ever driven. Very light, revy and compliant. The handling was sublime and it seemed to have that apex to apex flow that only Lotus know how. It was at home gliding down country lanes and had a fantastic responsive "stamp on it" feel, both in braking and accelerating.
On tour in Belgium:
I had always wanted an S3 Na (they are supposedly more reliable and simpler beasts) and loved every minute of driving it. True it let me down every once in a while, irritating little gremlins like a doggy ignition module etc... all cheap fixes. well......I did shred the crown Wheel & pinion though which in the 160 bhp Na is quite an achievement! But parts were relatively available (apart from CWP's!) and the network of dedicated specialists very helpful.
There was always a sense of occasion to driving it and the car always provoked great reactions. I miss that car dearly and were it not for the absurd costs of buying a home in this country it would still be on my drive!
With under 800 of the S3 Na's made they are chronically rare and offer a superb driving experience. Hugely undervalued cars in my eyes. Perhaps the rarity is one of the things hampering these cars? perhaps the fact that they have only have 160 bhp goes against them but they "feel" quick enough.
Que my next Esprit.... an 81 Dry Sump Turbo ... In "that Colour"
I bought the Turbo some time ago now and ran the two cars side by side for just under two years. Damn that got pricey! Although It was great having a choice of which 1981 esprit to use (they were incidentally both the same year)
They are incredibly different to drive, the turbo is weighty slow and lumbering till you prod the throttle then its off and gone, but only over 4000rpm, beneath that its a cumbersome beast. The total opposite from the Na but get it on a slip road or a series of flowing twisties and it still has the capacity to scare and delight with its pace. I wouldn't advocate going mad though as the brakes are decidedly 1980's! technology has certainly moved on. But its still quick. Others have pointed out when new it was one of the quickest accelerating cars one could buy.
Incidentally they made more Turbos; my Bronze car is a Dry Sumped version (one of the first 140 or so after which they then moved to Wet sump set-ups) and one of only 45 in Copper/Bronze These are very sought after. It seems to follow that adage of the first and the last are the most valuable. But still not valuable in Supercar prices. There is no doubting the Esprits credentials against its contempory rivals. I have been offered over 30K for the car but for the meantime its not for sale.... I bought it for Single figures
I do think that the Esprit Market is VERY limited...demand is simply not that high. They do tend to be enthusiasts cars, bought largely by Lotus heads. But they do get under your skin. There are also a huge amount of stinkers out there. They are relatively cheap to buy but pricey to maintain, as a result many have been the subject of horrible botches, there are so many dogs out there. Good Esprits tend to get sold very quickly. There was an S4s on pistonheads that went a day within advertising on here..... I tried to enquire!
In my view the Esprit (specifically the S3/Turbo) provides in so many areas;
- It has great performance, being pokey but mated with that sublime Lotus magic.
- It looks superb, proper dramatic, low slung and wide, the archetypal supercar... a poor mans countach if you will
-It certainly has a sense of occasion and is on the whole met with smiles and kind/enquiring remarks. it still surprises me how many people know what it is etc....
- Links to a certain Secret agent
- many maintenance issues can be attempted (but not always completed) at home. Some fixes are eyewateringly pricey for some obsene rockinghorse poo part to others that can be found over the counter for pittance.
- its a true thoroughbred from one of the worlds greatest car makers (rose tinted specs here?!?!?!) and British!
They can be costly to run and ruin you but that harks back to the good car v bad car comment above. Plus most cars can haemorrhage money either way... The Esprit is a motoring icon and one that deserves its day in the limelight....but hopefully not before ive bought a few more!
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff