Why is the Lotus Esprit not appreciating in value??
Discussion
I'm a huge fan of anything with a Cosworth badge on it and loved the Sapphire and Escort Cosworths I owned. An RS500 would be a thrill to own but crikey the Sport 300 is Lotus's equivalent of the F40! Totally different league in all respects.
Yes the racing pedigree is top drawer for the RS500 but the Sport 300 came straight out of the X180R programme. The exploits of Doc Bundy and co in the IMSA series, winning the title in 1992 from a field packed with much more powerful, factory backed 911 Turbos and Corvettes, are the stuff of legend also. Esprits got some really strong results in British GT in the 90's also.
Yes the racing pedigree is top drawer for the RS500 but the Sport 300 came straight out of the X180R programme. The exploits of Doc Bundy and co in the IMSA series, winning the title in 1992 from a field packed with much more powerful, factory backed 911 Turbos and Corvettes, are the stuff of legend also. Esprits got some really strong results in British GT in the 90's also.
American classic muscle cars have never been more popular/expensive than they are today. Why? Because Ford are selling a good Mustang today, Chevy are selling a good Camaro today and Dodge are selling a good Charger today - all shifting in big numbers.
Meanwhile Esprit bears no material relationship to any other Lotus model and the company has essentially abandoned the "supercar" sector at whose entrance the Esprit was nudging. In other words, Esprit has very little relevance to today's customers. Check out also the Renault Alpine/GTA which suffers exactly the same problem. Yet people are paying crazy money for old Porsches, IMO because the lineage feeds right through to today.
Meanwhile Esprit bears no material relationship to any other Lotus model and the company has essentially abandoned the "supercar" sector at whose entrance the Esprit was nudging. In other words, Esprit has very little relevance to today's customers. Check out also the Renault Alpine/GTA which suffers exactly the same problem. Yet people are paying crazy money for old Porsches, IMO because the lineage feeds right through to today.
interloper said:
The Pits said:
I mean, they only made 64 Esprit Sport 300s in total, the car has race pedigree, rave reviews in the press, handling an RS500 could only dream of and 300bhp straight out of the box - yours for £50k.
To be fair the RS500 has better race pedigree than the Lotus, I believe it was very successful in both the BTCC and ETC. I don't remember watching the Esprit racing on BBC Grandstand as nipper! Apart from that, it doesn't make sense but RS tax out weighs any common sense!
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. Then I saw Ed China trying to get into one and pretty much ignored this thread in a hissy fit.
He fits okay-ish in the later cars. This is a Sport 350 which has rather over padded seats, the sports seats from a V8GT/GT3 place your bum lower to the floor and have spacers which can be removed, too. Combine that with a glass roof and job's a goodun'. 
Impasse said:
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. Then I saw Ed China trying to get into one and pretty much ignored this thread in a hissy fit.
He fits okay-ish in the later cars. This is a Sport 350 which has rather over padded seats, the sports seats from a V8GT/GT3 place your bum lower to the floor and have spacers which can be removed, too. Combine that with a glass roof and job's a goodun'. Sadly the reason that I have never owned a Lotus and not even bothered driving many is that they are catagorically not for the taller chap.
Ozzie Osmond said:
American classic muscle cars have never been more popular/expensive than they are today. Why? Because Ford are selling a good Mustang today, Chevy are selling a good Camaro today and Dodge are selling a good Charger today - all shifting in big numbers.
Meanwhile Esprit bears no material relationship to any other Lotus model and the company has essentially abandoned the "supercar" sector at whose entrance the Esprit was nudging. In other words, Esprit has very little relevance to today's customers. Check out also the Renault Alpine/GTA which suffers exactly the same problem. Yet people are paying crazy money for old Porsches, IMO because the lineage feeds right through to today.
I'll take your word for it but I'm struggling to see why anyone would really care much about that. Ford doesn't make anything like the RS Cosworths anymore, nor does Lancia make anything like an Integrale and values are very strong at the moment for both.Meanwhile Esprit bears no material relationship to any other Lotus model and the company has essentially abandoned the "supercar" sector at whose entrance the Esprit was nudging. In other words, Esprit has very little relevance to today's customers. Check out also the Renault Alpine/GTA which suffers exactly the same problem. Yet people are paying crazy money for old Porsches, IMO because the lineage feeds right through to today.
The real driver of all this is very low interest rates plus cars being CGT exempt. Very few more attractive places to leave your spare millions at the moment. If anything changes with either some of the people buying now are in for a serious bath. It's taken over 20 years to get back to the values last seen in the late 80's/early 90's.
Ozzie Osmond said:
American classic muscle cars have never been more popular/expensive than they are today. Why? Because Ford are selling a good Mustang today, Chevy are selling a good Camaro today and Dodge are selling a good Charger today - all shifting in big numbers.
Meanwhile Esprit bears no material relationship to any other Lotus model and the company has essentially abandoned the "supercar" sector at whose entrance the Esprit was nudging. In other words, Esprit has very little relevance to today's customers. Check out also the Renault Alpine/GTA which suffers exactly the same problem. Yet people are paying crazy money for old Porsches, IMO because the lineage feeds right through to today.
I respectfully disagree.Meanwhile Esprit bears no material relationship to any other Lotus model and the company has essentially abandoned the "supercar" sector at whose entrance the Esprit was nudging. In other words, Esprit has very little relevance to today's customers. Check out also the Renault Alpine/GTA which suffers exactly the same problem. Yet people are paying crazy money for old Porsches, IMO because the lineage feeds right through to today.
TVR is dead and buried, yet people will pay bonkers money for 1960s Griffiths and Tuscan V8s.
There are plenty of expensive classics where the marque has died. Look at Austin Healey 3000s, some Lancias, Triumph TR5s etc.
Eligibility for classic motorsport such as the HSCC 1960s and 1970s Road Sports series has a lot to do with the price of old Elans and TVRs. It is the same with Mk1 and Mk2 Escorts and classic rallying.
The Lotus Esprit was never a competitive car in club motorsport. Besides, the vast majority of Esprits were made in the 1980s and beyond and there is nothing much you can do with an old Esprit at the moment.
It would be very interesting if the HSCC started a 1980s Road Sports championship. There would be a mix of big TVR wedges, Ferrari 308s, Esprit Turbos, 911s, 944s, 928s.... Maybe the odd Pantera, Marcos, Morgan, Supra etc. Would be splendid to see how the Lotus fared in such a championship.
Then you have the investors and speculators. They generally wouldn't know one end of an Esprit from the other. So they stick to Ferraris and E Types, just like they always have done.
What does puzzle me is the demand for air cooled 911s. They are hardly rare. Nor is there anything particularly exotic about them. I suppose that your average late 1970s or early 1980s 911 does bear a pretty close physical and mechanical similarity to the really desirable early 1970s RS models.
There seems to be a thriving business in turning tired 911SCs into Carrera RS replicas.
Wonder why people aren't doing the same with tired S3 Esprits and turning them into replicas of the more desirable S1?
Maybe the early Esprit's problem is that it is rather too closely related to the Éclat and 1970s Elite, which really are dismal unwanted things. But, then again, the Porsche 928 is not exactly going to set your pants on fire.
It is all a mystery.
All I know is that old Esprits are appreciating just enough that I can kid myself that it makes financial sense to own one.
And they haven't appreciated enough for them to be vulnerable to the bubble bursting.
I am glad I got my Ferrari itch scratched when 328 GTS prices were in the doldrums. I would be terrified of spending upwards of £80,000 on a car which might collapse in worth by upwards of 50%.
At current prices, Esprit ownership makes as much sense as Esprit ownership is ever going to make sense. I'm not sure that I would describe Esprits as a bargain. But they certainly are not expensive for what you get.
Pat H said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
American classic muscle cars have never been more popular/expensive than they are today. Why? Because Ford are selling a good Mustang today, Chevy are selling a good Camaro today and Dodge are selling a good Charger today - all shifting in big numbers.
Meanwhile Esprit bears no material relationship to any other Lotus model and the company has essentially abandoned the "supercar" sector at whose entrance the Esprit was nudging. In other words, Esprit has very little relevance to today's customers. Check out also the Renault Alpine/GTA which suffers exactly the same problem. Yet people are paying crazy money for old Porsches, IMO because the lineage feeds right through to today.
I respectfully disagree.Meanwhile Esprit bears no material relationship to any other Lotus model and the company has essentially abandoned the "supercar" sector at whose entrance the Esprit was nudging. In other words, Esprit has very little relevance to today's customers. Check out also the Renault Alpine/GTA which suffers exactly the same problem. Yet people are paying crazy money for old Porsches, IMO because the lineage feeds right through to today.
TVR is dead and buried, yet people will pay bonkers money for 1960s Griffiths and Tuscan V8s.
There are plenty of expensive classics where the marque has died. Look at Austin Healey 3000s, some Lancias, Triumph TR5s etc.
Eligibility for classic motorsport such as the HSCC 1960s and 1970s Road Sports series has a lot to do with the price of old Elans and TVRs. It is the same with Mk1 and Mk2 Escorts and classic rallying.
The Lotus Esprit was never a competitive car in club motorsport. Besides, the vast majority of Esprits were made in the 1980s and beyond and there is nothing much you can do with an old Esprit at the moment.
It would be very interesting if the HSCC started a 1980s Road Sports championship. There would be a mix of big TVR wedges, Ferrari 308s, Esprit Turbos, 911s, 944s, 928s.... Maybe the odd Pantera, Marcos, Morgan, Supra etc. Would be splendid to see how the Lotus fared in such a championship.
Then you have the investors and speculators. They generally wouldn't know one end of an Esprit from the other. So they stick to Ferraris and E Types, just like they always have done.
What does puzzle me is the demand for air cooled 911s. They are hardly rare. Nor is there anything particularly exotic about them. I suppose that your average late 1970s or early 1980s 911 does bear a pretty close physical and mechanical similarity to the really desirable early 1970s RS models.
There seems to be a thriving business in turning tired 911SCs into Carrera RS replicas.
Wonder why people aren't doing the same with tired S3 Esprits and turning them into replicas of the more desirable S1?
Maybe the early Esprit's problem is that it is rather too closely related to the Éclat and 1970s Elite, which really are dismal unwanted things. But, then again, the Porsche 928 is not exactly going to set your pants on fire.
It is all a mystery.
All I know is that old Esprits are appreciating just enough that I can kid myself that it makes financial sense to own one.
And they haven't appreciated enough for them to be vulnerable to the bubble bursting.
I am glad I got my Ferrari itch scratched when 328 GTS prices were in the doldrums. I would be terrified of spending upwards of £80,000 on a car which might collapse in worth by upwards of 50%.
At current prices, Esprit ownership makes as much sense as Esprit ownership is ever going to make sense. I'm not sure that I would describe Esprits as a bargain. But they certainly are not expensive for what you get.
It doesn't have racing pedigree and there is no historic set for it. At the same time the brand hasn't built anything beyond the Esprit yet.
All combines to mean no new money, big money demand and so it has been left behind. Prices have edged up but fundamentally that is more to do with the Gbp being worth less.
As such it represents a pretty bubble proof investment. You could buy one of these a week before the classic bubble burst and be pretty unscathed.
In time there will be a subtle market change and they will rocket up.
Pat H said:
What does puzzle me is the demand for air cooled 911s. They are hardly rare. Nor is there anything particularly exotic about them. I suppose that your average late 1970s or early 1980s 911 does bear a pretty close physical and mechanical similarity to the really desirable early 1970s RS models.
There seems to be a thriving business in turning tired 911SCs into Carrera RS replicas.
Wonder why people aren't doing the same with tired S3 Esprits and turning them into replicas of the more desirable S1?
Maybe the early Esprit's problem is that it is rather too closely related to the Éclat and 1970s Elite, which really are dismal unwanted things. But, then again, the Porsche 928 is not exactly going to set your pants on fire.
There are a couple of very specific reasons when it comes to aircooled PorkThere seems to be a thriving business in turning tired 911SCs into Carrera RS replicas.
Wonder why people aren't doing the same with tired S3 Esprits and turning them into replicas of the more desirable S1?
Maybe the early Esprit's problem is that it is rather too closely related to the Éclat and 1970s Elite, which really are dismal unwanted things. But, then again, the Porsche 928 is not exactly going to set your pants on fire.
1) The newer water cooled cars have gradually become more GT than small lightweight sports car, Lotus pretty much stayed true to what they are all about.
2) The newer water cooled cars have a reputation for chocolate mechanicals, a rep to some extent the fault of the internet and forums such as this one.
Someone posted it earlier but it got ignored but its exactly the same reason why I haven't got an Esprit on the drive, its simply that as soon as I start thinking down this road the sensible voice says you can buy a newer Lotus for similar money and get a much more reliable cheaper to run and maintain car (true, I don't know?). Then the questions around sound etc. etc. rare their head and I end up sticking with what I already have as I don't really see any currently available Lotus in my price bracket as a step forward (Porsche 944 S2 race car which was road legal).
The sensible voice only ever wants a Golf diesel. Stopped listening to that years ago!
I've owned 3 Esprits but never before owned a classic one. I wouldn't have any classic as my only car, fortunately I have some other cars for harder, faster driving. Given that, styling became more important. The one that makes me smile the most just to look at it, is a dry sump Turbo. The duvet seats, the boomerang dash pod, the roof stereo, the cammy gurgle, the rattlesnake wastegate, the supple ride and flat, composed cornering - there's nothing like an Esprit. They aren't for everyone of course but they do offer a unique experience. You don't travel very fast by modern standards in a 1981 Turbo but you do feel $1m.
I've driven a couple of Lamborghini Countaches and I will never, ever get over how they look but they were very agricultural to drive. Control weights are absurdly heavy. The V12 is magnificent of course but the Lotus is considerably sweeter to drive.
A 308 remains one of the prettiest Ferraris but I simply can't fit inside them.
I'm sure the 90's Esprits will have their day but it will take a while yet for the 90's look to come back into fashion.
I've owned 3 Esprits but never before owned a classic one. I wouldn't have any classic as my only car, fortunately I have some other cars for harder, faster driving. Given that, styling became more important. The one that makes me smile the most just to look at it, is a dry sump Turbo. The duvet seats, the boomerang dash pod, the roof stereo, the cammy gurgle, the rattlesnake wastegate, the supple ride and flat, composed cornering - there's nothing like an Esprit. They aren't for everyone of course but they do offer a unique experience. You don't travel very fast by modern standards in a 1981 Turbo but you do feel $1m.
I've driven a couple of Lamborghini Countaches and I will never, ever get over how they look but they were very agricultural to drive. Control weights are absurdly heavy. The V12 is magnificent of course but the Lotus is considerably sweeter to drive.
A 308 remains one of the prettiest Ferraris but I simply can't fit inside them.
I'm sure the 90's Esprits will have their day but it will take a while yet for the 90's look to come back into fashion.
Edited by The Pits on Monday 1st December 20:41
Personally I don't think those Stevens cars have been anything other than pretty. The one that has very strongly tempted me in recent years is the GT3 but they seem to have gone up in value by a fairly substantial margin over the past year or two.
Woes around Esprit values are nothing compared those of the Excel which are all over the place, in the last 6 months I have seen cars with an MoT as low as 2 grand up to over 10 for a nice one.
Woes around Esprit values are nothing compared those of the Excel which are all over the place, in the last 6 months I have seen cars with an MoT as low as 2 grand up to over 10 for a nice one.
danjama said:
The Esprit V8 TT in the Top Gear special tonight looked fantastic. It was especially fun watching James have a moment. He was lucky to catch it in those conditions. It looked very similar to me in my MR2 turbo when I first got it 
Yep best looking car on there by far. I did whince a few times for the sake of the wheels though! fatjon said:
jonah35 said:
Not that quick, apoplectic running costs. Same reason tvrs and Maserati 3200s aren't rising but Porsches and old m3s are.
TVR Cerbera is worth more than I paid for it in 2007 despite its apoplectic running costs. I think the Esprit problem is that it's pig ugly, badly made (even compared with a TVR), not very quick and has a vile, worst of the 1970's interior. It really has no redeeming features. 
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