Why is the Lotus Esprit not appreciating in value??
Discussion
delta0 said:
Lots of trouble usually serious. It's not just a saying.
Wow that's so fricking original! Why don't you pop over to the Ford forum and see if they really found it on the road dead?? As above have you actually owned one? 4 V8 Esprits owned with a total of 8 turbos and replaced 1 solitary unit plus 3 Elans owned and had to unseize a fuel pump due to lack of use......not bad for 15 years. sfella said:
Wow that's so fricking original! Why don't you pop over to the Ford forum and see if they really found it on the road dead?? As above have you actually owned one? 4 V8 Esprits owned with a total of 8 turbos and replaced 1 solitary unit plus 3 Elans owned and had to unseize a fuel pump due to lack of use......not bad for 15 years.
Not a Lotus, but within my group of friends and fellow pistonheads. The S2 is fairly robust and then eats your wallet. The 111R likes to drop its interior all over the place frequently. Even been hit in the face by a piece coming off and that is only a couple of years old. The 111R isn't serious yet. If you prang them then it can be serious on your wallet unfortunately. So yes, they do have issues but what can you expect.
DonkeyApple said:
I'm just being awkward 
. The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'.
The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
No it's not it's not far off its peak 2007 value against the €. So a little confused at this statement. . The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'. The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
Gary C said:
I find it's only really bumps that upset them. The lift off oversteer is not as savage as is often stated'
So, other than over bumps (quite a few of those about unfortunately) and the lift-off oversteer, 80's 911s aren't as treacherous as their reputation suggests?Strangely, I don't find that very reassuring.
Remarkably, the Esprit is astonishingly good over bumps and is beautifully balanced and forgiving to lifting mid-corner. Honestly, the stand-out attribute of the Esprit, thanks to the small, light, longitudinally mounted 4 cylinder engine and painstaking chassis, tyre and suspension development, is the way it handles compared to its much larger engined contemporaries. The ride is genuinely outstanding, even by modern standards, while body roll is uncannily contained. Roger Becker's uncontested genius is very evident from behind the wheel.
But of course 911s outsold the Esprit tenfold in 1980 and are worth embarassingly more now. Much like the 911 continues to humiliate the Cayman in terms of sales today. So where's the fun in chassis balance I guess?!
Welshbeef said:
DonkeyApple said:
I'm just being awkward . The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'.
The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
No it's not it's not far off its peak 2007 value against the €. So a little confused at this statement. . The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'. The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
And what is the relationship between GBP against domestic assets and GBP against another currency?
Welshbeef said:
DonkeyApple said:
so does that mean the £ is stronger or the Euro is weaker?
And what is the relationship between GBP against domestic assets and GBP against another currency?
V $ is fairly similarAnd what is the relationship between GBP against domestic assets and GBP against another currency?
€ v $ has weakened notably.
Biggest market is the Eurozone not the U.S.
Apologies but i disagree completely with what you are saying here ...
Firstly yes there is inflation in most economies so your statement is true to some extent and applicable to GBP (ironically you have picked a time when inflation is running low but I digress and I agree over the time period you are talking about)...
so agreed that a pound today is worth less than a pound a few years ago... the real test then is not that a pound today buys less but how much something has gone up (or down ... ) vs the inflation rate.
Not sure which measure of inflation you want to use but regardless you will find that both house prices and classic car prices (not all classics of course) have risen above the inflation rates...
Ergo they look like they have risen in value because they HAVE...
Firstly yes there is inflation in most economies so your statement is true to some extent and applicable to GBP (ironically you have picked a time when inflation is running low but I digress and I agree over the time period you are talking about)...
so agreed that a pound today is worth less than a pound a few years ago... the real test then is not that a pound today buys less but how much something has gone up (or down ... ) vs the inflation rate.
Not sure which measure of inflation you want to use but regardless you will find that both house prices and classic car prices (not all classics of course) have risen above the inflation rates...
Ergo they look like they have risen in value because they HAVE...
DonkeyApple said:
I'm just being awkward . The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'.
The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
. The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'. The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
Edited by Rakoosh on Wednesday 8th July 21:30
Edited by Rakoosh on Wednesday 8th July 21:30
Rakoosh said:
I disagree...
Firstly yes there is inflation in most economies so your statement is true to some extent (ironically you have picked a time when inflation is running low but I digress and I agree over the time period you are talking about): so agreed that a pound today is worth less than a pound a few years ago... the real test then is not that a pound today buys less but how much something has gone up vs the inflation rate.
Not sure which measure of inflation you want to use but regardless you will find that both house prices and classic car prices (not all classics of course) have risen above the inflation rates...
They HAVE risen in worth...
Nope. Because neither RPI or CPi is yet reflecting QE but assets not in those baskets are. Firstly yes there is inflation in most economies so your statement is true to some extent (ironically you have picked a time when inflation is running low but I digress and I agree over the time period you are talking about): so agreed that a pound today is worth less than a pound a few years ago... the real test then is not that a pound today buys less but how much something has gone up vs the inflation rate.
Not sure which measure of inflation you want to use but regardless you will find that both house prices and classic car prices (not all classics of course) have risen above the inflation rates...
They HAVE risen in worth...
DonkeyApple said:
I'm just being awkward . The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'.
The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
. The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'. The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
Purchasing power of GBP domestically for many assets, not consumables ( which is what RPI and CPi really measure) has fallen considerably because the percieved and Ali's real value of GBP has fallen. It's the same throughout the West.
Welshbeef said:
DonkeyApple said:
I'm just being awkward . The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'.
The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
No it's not it's not far off its peak 2007 value against the €. So a little confused at this statement. . The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'. The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
Welshbeef said:
Welshbeef said:
DonkeyApple said:
I'm just being awkward . The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'.
The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
No it's not it's not far off its peak 2007 value against the €. So a little confused at this statement. . The GBP is worth a lot less than it was a few years ago, hence why things like houses and Classic cars look like they've risen in 'worth'. The real test is if you take the new GBP value, can you buy more necessity goods today than you could back then? My guess is no.
Sorry, just being a nerd.
And please explain relevance of alternate currency when the pair in question is GBP/Classic car rather than Cable or GBPEUR.
Because they are bought by the discerning who know their cars and are not influenced by market trends. Meanwhile the sheep continue to drive up the prices of less worthy cars because the likes of Quentin Wilson tell them they are a good investment. The bubble will burst eventually.
No, I'm not an Esprit owner - but one day!
No, I'm not an Esprit owner - but one day!
My bad you must be right ... because you have used some acronyms and in another post you said 'cable' instead of GBP/USD. Goodness what was I thinking disagreeing with you?
I have to confess I am a bit confused by what you are actually trying to say here tbh - your first post mentioned something about necessity goods and now you're using asset prices having gone up as your argument / proof that a pound is worth less.
But thats just me being thick ... so lets just agree to disagree and you continue to believe your drivel whilst I will continue to believe that I missed the boat to pick up a 993 or an Esprit when they were slightly more affordable...
Obviously I am just a lot poorer than I was back then ... rather than the fact the cars have gone up in value.
I have to confess I am a bit confused by what you are actually trying to say here tbh - your first post mentioned something about necessity goods and now you're using asset prices having gone up as your argument / proof that a pound is worth less.
But thats just me being thick ... so lets just agree to disagree and you continue to believe your drivel whilst I will continue to believe that I missed the boat to pick up a 993 or an Esprit when they were slightly more affordable...
Obviously I am just a lot poorer than I was back then ... rather than the fact the cars have gone up in value.
DonkeyApple said:
Nope. Because neither RPI or CPi is yet reflecting QE but assets not in those baskets are.
Purchasing power of GBP domestically for many assets, not consumables ( which is what RPI and CPi really measure) has fallen considerably because the percieved and Ali's real value of GBP has fallen. It's the same throughout the West.
Purchasing power of GBP domestically for many assets, not consumables ( which is what RPI and CPi really measure) has fallen considerably because the percieved and Ali's real value of GBP has fallen. It's the same throughout the West.
What??
Sorry I know I should resist but honestly this is more bs / drivel... since when is the Big Mac index a 'poverty index'??? The Economist came up with it as a tool to measure whether or not a ccy was under or over value in relation to its traded exchange rate.
I think the point the person was trying to make is that one measure of the value of GBP is against another ccy. Traditionally people have used USD or EUR as a good international yardstick of a currencies relative worth.
The persons argument is therefore totally relevant in this context in my view.
Sorry I know I should resist but honestly this is more bs / drivel... since when is the Big Mac index a 'poverty index'??? The Economist came up with it as a tool to measure whether or not a ccy was under or over value in relation to its traded exchange rate.
I think the point the person was trying to make is that one measure of the value of GBP is against another ccy. Traditionally people have used USD or EUR as a good international yardstick of a currencies relative worth.
The persons argument is therefore totally relevant in this context in my view.
DonkeyApple said:
Consumable. Not asset. Also it is a poverty index, hardly appropriate in this context.
And please explain relevance of alternate currency when the pair in question is GBP/Classic car rather than Cable or GBPEUR.
And please explain relevance of alternate currency when the pair in question is GBP/Classic car rather than Cable or GBPEUR.
Sorry to labour a point made before but lost in the noise of 18 pages. Cars like old 911s have that flat six sound which is truely intoxicating and unique, my first experience in a 73 2.4S is still burned into my memory and that sort of fun is something which can be savoured just popping down to the shops. Anyone regardless of ability can get it at reasonable speeds for little to no effort. Now I can also remember many years ago my brother beaming after driving the s1 Espirit he used to work on for a friend back then. He said it was the only car he had driven which really did handle like a big go-kart with a body on, and he should know as he used to build and prepare karts back then. Very few people have the ability to drive a car well enough to appreciate that. This in a nutshell has always been the problem with the Espirits, they have a bad rep for reliability, 4 pot engines which sound like crap compared to a flat 6 Porsche and handling which whilst incredible only the very few can drive well enough to appreciate.
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