Why is the Lotus Esprit not appreciating in value??
Discussion
I think the point about the engines is a great point.
Cars like the Ferrari 308/328 are really held out for looking great and their engine, specifically noise. Imagine if they had 4's, 6's or quiet 8's - they certainly wouldn't be as revered.
Once you get past the 'at the time' amazing looks I am not sure what else about is revered.
Every car that is appreciated has a associate has at least 2 things that really stand out and I'm not sure if the Esprit only has 1.
Cars like the Ferrari 308/328 are really held out for looking great and their engine, specifically noise. Imagine if they had 4's, 6's or quiet 8's - they certainly wouldn't be as revered.
Once you get past the 'at the time' amazing looks I am not sure what else about is revered.
Every car that is appreciated has a associate has at least 2 things that really stand out and I'm not sure if the Esprit only has 1.
Rakoosh said:
What??
Sorry I know I should resist but honestly this is more bs / drivel... since when is the Big Mac index a 'poverty index'??? The Economist came up with it as a tool to measure whether or not a ccy was under or over value in relation to its traded exchange rate.
I think the point the person was trying to make is that one measure of the value of GBP is against another ccy. Traditionally people have used USD or EUR as a good international yardstick of a currencies relative worth.
The persons argument is therefore totally relevant in this context in my view.
Exchange rate is the ratio of one currency against another. Please explain what relevance this has in the context of purchasing power of GBp v domestic assets?Sorry I know I should resist but honestly this is more bs / drivel... since when is the Big Mac index a 'poverty index'??? The Economist came up with it as a tool to measure whether or not a ccy was under or over value in relation to its traded exchange rate.
I think the point the person was trying to make is that one measure of the value of GBP is against another ccy. Traditionally people have used USD or EUR as a good international yardstick of a currencies relative worth.
The persons argument is therefore totally relevant in this context in my view.
DonkeyApple said:
Consumable. Not asset. Also it is a poverty index, hardly appropriate in this context. 
And please explain relevance of alternate currency when the pair in question is GBP/Classic car rather than Cable or GBPEUR.
And please explain relevance of alternate currency when the pair in question is GBP/Classic car rather than Cable or GBPEUR.
I'll give a little clue. Absolutely none.
I made a remark that GBP has devalued since the credit crunch, which very obviously it has as there are many more of them 8 years on from the start of QE and can also be seen really rather clearly in the absolutely massive asset bubble that exists. And then someone comes on ranting about GBP ratios to other currencies which is totally irrelevant as to be farcical. Someone else mentions CPI/RPI which again is a basket of consumables so totally irrelevant. And then someone mentions Big Macs which again is a cross border measure of relative strengths and weaknesses of various currencies for the low net worth 90% of society. Again totally irrelevant.
Who let the economists in?!
There was a convertible Esprit called the 'St. Tropez'. I much prefer the look of the fixed roof car however.
The 4 pot is a significant part of why the Esprit handles so well and also why its heavy-engined contemporaries did not.
Actually the 2.2 slant four is a rorty, cammy, delight and very refined for a four cylinder too. Smooth all the way to 7000, quite unlike something like a Ford Cosworth. I'm honestly not convinced the 308 sounds any better. They sound very like a 4 cylinder to me. I can only hear the fans in an air cooled 911 so I'm not quite sure what the fuss is about there either but when you do eventually get to hear the flat six I'll grant you it does sound better than both the Esprit and the 308. But I think the noise Esprit four is still as under-rated as the 308 is over-rated. 246 Dino however is an entirely different story!
Lotus did of course fit a V8 to the Esprit after years of journalists crying out for it but they then all seemed to prefer the four cylinder cars, the rarest of which command the highest prices today. I think the fact is the Esprit is THE definitive four cylinder 'super car'. That's its MO, its USP and an integral part of its character. It's a unique solution to the brief and one that Lotus made work so well, it only became properly appreciated the moment Lotus put a V8 in one.
It can't all be down to the 'lack' of cylinders. The four cylinder Sierra RS 500 Cosworths are also fetching well over £60k now and have you seen the prices of Escort Mk1's?! Yes they have distinguished race and rally pedigree but the Esprit was also indecently successful in British GT and was the stuff of legend in the SCCA series in the States.
There was a convertible Esprit called the 'St. Tropez'. I much prefer the look of the fixed roof car however.
The 4 pot is a significant part of why the Esprit handles so well and also why its heavy-engined contemporaries did not.
Actually the 2.2 slant four is a rorty, cammy, delight and very refined for a four cylinder too. Smooth all the way to 7000, quite unlike something like a Ford Cosworth. I'm honestly not convinced the 308 sounds any better. They sound very like a 4 cylinder to me. I can only hear the fans in an air cooled 911 so I'm not quite sure what the fuss is about there either but when you do eventually get to hear the flat six I'll grant you it does sound better than both the Esprit and the 308. But I think the noise Esprit four is still as under-rated as the 308 is over-rated. 246 Dino however is an entirely different story!
Lotus did of course fit a V8 to the Esprit after years of journalists crying out for it but they then all seemed to prefer the four cylinder cars, the rarest of which command the highest prices today. I think the fact is the Esprit is THE definitive four cylinder 'super car'. That's its MO, its USP and an integral part of its character. It's a unique solution to the brief and one that Lotus made work so well, it only became properly appreciated the moment Lotus put a V8 in one.
It can't all be down to the 'lack' of cylinders. The four cylinder Sierra RS 500 Cosworths are also fetching well over £60k now and have you seen the prices of Escort Mk1's?! Yes they have distinguished race and rally pedigree but the Esprit was also indecently successful in British GT and was the stuff of legend in the SCCA series in the States.
The Pits said:
Who let the economists in?!
There was a convertible Esprit called the 'St. Tropez'. I much prefer the look of the fixed roof car however.
The 4 pot is a significant part of why the Esprit handles so well and also why its heavy-engined contemporaries did not.
Actually the 2.2 slant four is a rorty, cammy, delight and very refined for a four cylinder too. Smooth all the way to 7000, quite unlike something like a Ford Cosworth. I'm honestly not convinced the 308 sounds any better. They sound very like a 4 cylinder to me. I can only hear the fans in an air cooled 911 so I'm not quite sure what the fuss is about there either but when you do eventually get to hear the flat six I'll grant you it does sound better than both the Esprit and the 308. But I think the noise Esprit four is still as under-rated as the 308 is over-rated. 246 Dino however is an entirely different story!
Lotus did of course fit a V8 to the Esprit after years of journalists crying out for it but they then all seemed to prefer the four cylinder cars, the rarest of which command the highest prices today. I think the fact is the Esprit is THE definitive four cylinder 'super car'. That's its MO, its USP and an integral part of its character. It's a unique solution to the brief and one that Lotus made work so well, it only became properly appreciated the moment Lotus put a V8 in one.
It can't all be down to the 'lack' of cylinders. The four cylinder Sierra RS 500 Cosworths are also fetching well over £60k now and have you seen the prices of Escort Mk1's?! Yes they have distinguished race and rally pedigree but the Esprit was also indecently successful in British GT and was the stuff of legend in the SCCA series in the States.
No racing pedigree, lack of V8 soundtrack, fragility plus poor spares support, not that great to begin with. Ferrari did a 2.0 4 pot version of the 308, I doubt these will ever command the fees the V8s do. Not the sort of car old people want to buy when the get a bit of cash like an E Type, Big Healey etc. GRP bodywork not particularly popular.There was a convertible Esprit called the 'St. Tropez'. I much prefer the look of the fixed roof car however.
The 4 pot is a significant part of why the Esprit handles so well and also why its heavy-engined contemporaries did not.
Actually the 2.2 slant four is a rorty, cammy, delight and very refined for a four cylinder too. Smooth all the way to 7000, quite unlike something like a Ford Cosworth. I'm honestly not convinced the 308 sounds any better. They sound very like a 4 cylinder to me. I can only hear the fans in an air cooled 911 so I'm not quite sure what the fuss is about there either but when you do eventually get to hear the flat six I'll grant you it does sound better than both the Esprit and the 308. But I think the noise Esprit four is still as under-rated as the 308 is over-rated. 246 Dino however is an entirely different story!
Lotus did of course fit a V8 to the Esprit after years of journalists crying out for it but they then all seemed to prefer the four cylinder cars, the rarest of which command the highest prices today. I think the fact is the Esprit is THE definitive four cylinder 'super car'. That's its MO, its USP and an integral part of its character. It's a unique solution to the brief and one that Lotus made work so well, it only became properly appreciated the moment Lotus put a V8 in one.
It can't all be down to the 'lack' of cylinders. The four cylinder Sierra RS 500 Cosworths are also fetching well over £60k now and have you seen the prices of Escort Mk1's?! Yes they have distinguished race and rally pedigree but the Esprit was also indecently successful in British GT and was the stuff of legend in the SCCA series in the States.
It all adds up.
I'm sure they handle well, but that doesn't mean much when it comes classic car values.
Edited by MarshPhantom on Thursday 9th July 09:49
jhoneyball said:
how about the lack of spares support from lotus? I used to have a wonderful Excel SE Celebration -- superb car. But parts supply was getting poor and that was a decade ago. Lotus has no interest in its heritage whatsoever. And that hits the residuals very hard
They used to, but then some lifestyle obsessed dimwit decided to get rid of all the spares that they weren't legally required to carry in stock. Fortunately, there are some specialists around who do carry a lot of parts, or can get them made up.LotusOmega375D said:
Where do people get this sort of rubbish from?
The 208 was an Italian tax break turbocharged V8.
Yes a 2 litre V8, 8 x 250cc pistons is quite a charming idea.The 208 was an Italian tax break turbocharged V8.
As it happens the 'vetroresina' (GRP) 308s are the most sought after now. So there goes the glass fibre theory. The Esprit also achieved far more as a racing car than the 308 ever did.
The Esprit X180R did quite well in the American Nationwide Bridgestone Supercar Championship and SCCA World Challenge ISTR
http://www.lotusespritworld.com/EModels/x180r.html
and I'm competing in one albeit at club level. Just saying...
http://www.lotusespritworld.com/EModels/x180r.html
and I'm competing in one albeit at club level. Just saying...
When you look at other marques which don't have that strong international demand like Ferrari or Porshe etc there needs to be a collector requirement for prices to be driven up hard. Enthusiast demand alone isn't enough.
An interesting aspect of this is that it usually takes one dealer to start pushing up prices to start getting interest from buyers who aren't currently enthusiasts and finally you need a couple of key collectors to add them to their collection.
Everything is there for the Esprit. It has iconic movie status. It has iconic poster status. It has lots of sub groups for collectors to get anal over and argue which is best or rarest and more importantly for dealers to spin yarns over and pump up prices. And above all it has a rather phenominal brand heritage.
With Rangie Classics they weren't going anywhere in a similar fashion. Plenty of cheap dogs and a few munters commanding good values but nothing silly. Then one London dealer started asking £30k for them. Within a few years he was asking £70k and one sold last year for £140k. The secret was that while he was pushing values up he was also explaining to collectors that they needed one of these cars if they wanted their collection to be complete etc. The net result is that today collectors are paying as much as £100k to have early ones restored.
I think that if the Esprit caught the eye of the right collectors there is no reason to not assume that values could massively snowball quite quickly. There is no doubt that they are hugely collectable but just that none of the gatekeepers have yet to start pitching them to collectors.
An interesting aspect of this is that it usually takes one dealer to start pushing up prices to start getting interest from buyers who aren't currently enthusiasts and finally you need a couple of key collectors to add them to their collection.
Everything is there for the Esprit. It has iconic movie status. It has iconic poster status. It has lots of sub groups for collectors to get anal over and argue which is best or rarest and more importantly for dealers to spin yarns over and pump up prices. And above all it has a rather phenominal brand heritage.
With Rangie Classics they weren't going anywhere in a similar fashion. Plenty of cheap dogs and a few munters commanding good values but nothing silly. Then one London dealer started asking £30k for them. Within a few years he was asking £70k and one sold last year for £140k. The secret was that while he was pushing values up he was also explaining to collectors that they needed one of these cars if they wanted their collection to be complete etc. The net result is that today collectors are paying as much as £100k to have early ones restored.
I think that if the Esprit caught the eye of the right collectors there is no reason to not assume that values could massively snowball quite quickly. There is no doubt that they are hugely collectable but just that none of the gatekeepers have yet to start pitching them to collectors.
DonkeyApple said:
An interesting aspect of this is that it usually takes one dealer to start pushing up prices to start getting interest from buyers who aren't currently enthusiasts and finally you need a couple of key collectors to add them to their collection.
There is no doubt that they are hugely collectable but just that none of the gatekeepers have yet to start pitching them to collectors.
Maybe that's just about to change with this recent new London dealership announcement? I wonder if they will do for 1980/1990s Lotus values what they've already done for 1980/1990s 911s?There is no doubt that they are hugely collectable but just that none of the gatekeepers have yet to start pitching them to collectors.
http://hexagonclassics.com/lotus/
blade7 said:
The Pits said:
I think the fact is the Esprit is THE definitive four cylinder 'super car'.
I don't recall them being better than the 944 Turbo in road tests back in the day.DonkeyApple said:
When you look at other marques which don't have that strong international demand like Ferrari or Porshe etc there needs to be a collector requirement for prices to be driven up hard. Enthusiast demand alone isn't enough. /snip
I sat down to write this post. Until demand is cultivated, prices will remain stagnant or drop. I suspect, as others have, that the lack of investment and availability of heritage parts is a drag on interest which stems from another issue that Lotus have always been a niche brand. Not a problem after a dealer takes, and sells, a different approach on the history of the cars. I do think having an appreciating classic is a double edged sword; once objects are seen as investments then the object becomes much less important than the paperwork, the provenance. Not things to enjoy any more but investments to be protected.
TEKNOPUG said:
blade7 said:
The Pits said:
I think the fact is the Esprit is THE definitive four cylinder 'super car'.
I don't recall them being better than the 944 Turbo in road tests back in the day.swisstoni said:
MarshPhantom said:
No racing pedigree.
There's a few things you can say about Lotus but that's not one of them is it?Edited by MarshPhantom on Thursday 9th July 09:49
I was talking about the Esprit itself, compared with cars like the MK1 Escort or Sierra Cosworth that were mentioned in Pits's post.
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