Why is the Lotus Esprit not appreciating in value??

[MarshPhantom]

braddo said:

NJH said:

There is another dynamic which is easy to overlook and its what Lotus themselves do. In pretty much every case I can think of the cars from other manufacturers that have appreciated a lot tend to represent something that manufacturer has moved on from, whether its weight, analog feel, sound, physical size, feedback or a combination of all those things. I can remember about a decade ago when people started going keen on really old air-cooled 911s, back then the reasons were pretty obvious as Porsche just didn't make a sub 1100 kg car that was compact any more. Same effect for the E30 M3. For Lotus though there are the Elise and Exige and there surely must be many a man that has looked at 4 pot Espirits in the past and thought, nah go for an Elise or Exige instead. Granted very different cars but I bet if Lotus was now only making too big for British B roads 1400+ Kg cars with electric steering the Espirit would be worth far more.

Agreed.

I'm one of them - there is whole range of great Espirits but every time I ask myself if I would buy one, I can't imagine buying one over an Elise or Exige.

And the Elise is a natural successor to the earlier Lotus's, the Esprit seems like a bit of a diversion.

[pits]

MarshPhantom said:

swisstoni said:

MarshPhantom said:

To the engines don't matter people, check out the values of Sunbeam Alpine vs The Tiger, MGB vs the V8, TR7 vs TR8 etc.

Edited by MarshPhantom on Sunday 18th September 07:48

Well they are a lot rarer variant in each case for a start.

By your reckoning, V12 E Types should be the ones to go for. Nice exotic V12 up front.
Not the case at all.

Is that what I said? There seem to some seriously deluded Esprit fans.

3 classic cars were originally available with a 4 pot or V8 engine. Guess which one is worth a lot more than the other now?

Your point is null and voided by the fact the TR7 and TR8 were dogst to begin with, they're dogst now and will forever be dogst.
Sunbeam Alpine or Tiger, quite a pretty car Vs This gopping hunk of st

[Shifter1]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Never forget that,

• Lotus designed the engine for Corvette ZR1
• Lotus built the Vauxhall/Opel Carlton in its go-fastest version (with traditional Lotus build quality)
• Lotus built the M100 front wheel drive 4-pot Elan
• Some mass-produced Corvettes are amongst the most valuable classic cars on this planet
• Some mass-produced Porsches are amongst the most valuable classic cars on this planet
• Some mass-produced Jaguars are amongst the most valuable classic cars on this planet.

IMO it's more about "catching the wave" than who built what and/or why.

• Lotus did the ZR1 engine. But they were owned by GM at the time. Also, don't confuse Lotus Cars with Lotus Engineering. They are actually separated businesses. Lotus Engineering will work on any cars they get paid to. They have helped tune or develop Isuzus, Hyundays, Opels and all sorts of cars. Doesn't mean the cars were made by Lotus Cars.

• Again, the Carlton/Omega were not Lotus cars. Lotus Engineering tuned them. GM owned Lotus at the time and also owns Vauxhall and Opel. So the cars were sold with a Lotus badge as a publicity stunt. They were Lotus tuned. Not Lotus developed and made. VERY different. They were still an Opel car.

• Yes, Lotus built the M100 and also the original Elan. I don't see your point. They are both sports cars.

• You say some mass-produced Corvettes are among the most valuable classic cars on this planet. But most of them aren't. The models with limited numbers or special are naturally higher in price and more desirable. But most Vettes are cheap.

• Porsche is a performance car manufacture. Always was. So it actually fits my point. GM is not. GM makes all sorts of cars. Even the Boxter which is cheaper is still a performance sports car. Porsche is still a niche brand. This is my point.

• Jaguar is the closest thing to a point you have in the argument. But! And this is a big but, despite not being a performance car only badge, it is still a high-end and luxury car badge. They don't compete with the likes of the Cavalier or the Polo for example. This is why their sports cars are desirable. Their badge has cache. GM does not.

[CABC]

MarshPhantom said:

And the Elise is a natural successor to the earlier Lotus's, the Esprit seems like a bit of a diversion.

true. esprit made to generate cash as there's more profit in supercars than sports cars.

[Shifter1]

56Lotus said:

Who said Espirts aren't appreciating?

My brother struggled to sell a really good S3 a couple of years ago for approx £10K. It's currently up with a dealer for about £25K!!!!!

I love the optimism, if it was still about £10K I'd buy it back but there is no way it's worth any more, let alone £25K.

Jon

Yep. Like I mentioned in my first replies to the thread. They are actually appreciating.

There was an episode of Wheeler Dealers where they bought a S3 Esprit for £3600, fixed it up and sold it for £6300. You just can't buy a S3 in the condition that was for that kind of money today anymore.

That episode aired in 2008.

The cars have definitely appreciated since. And quite a bit. Taking a quick look I can't find any cheap Giugiaro cars. Unless they are just a shell of a car.

The problem IMO is not that they are not appreciating in price. They most certainly are. The problem is that they are under priced compared to other cars.

[swisstoni]

MarshPhantom said:

braddo said:

NJH said:

There is another dynamic which is easy to overlook and its what Lotus themselves do. In pretty much every case I can think of the cars from other manufacturers that have appreciated a lot tend to represent something that manufacturer has moved on from, whether its weight, analog feel, sound, physical size, feedback or a combination of all those things. I can remember about a decade ago when people started going keen on really old air-cooled 911s, back then the reasons were pretty obvious as Porsche just didn't make a sub 1100 kg car that was compact any more. Same effect for the E30 M3. For Lotus though there are the Elise and Exige and there surely must be many a man that has looked at 4 pot Espirits in the past and thought, nah go for an Elise or Exige instead. Granted very different cars but I bet if Lotus was now only making too big for British B roads 1400+ Kg cars with electric steering the Espirit would be worth far more.

Agreed.

I'm one of them - there is whole range of great Espirits but every time I ask myself if I would buy one, I can't imagine buying one over an Elise or Exige.

And the Elise is a natural successor to the earlier Lotus's, the Esprit seems like a bit of a diversion.

I thought the Esprit was a follow up the Europa in a new jazzy European style. When you look at it as a Europa MkII the lack of cylinders make sense and comparisons with super-cars seems a bit of a stretch.
The Etna was to be Lotus's play for the V8 supercar market but sadly never made it.

[Shifter1]

MarshPhantom said:

And the Elise is a natural successor to the earlier Lotus's, the Esprit seems like a bit of a diversion.

But what a nice diversion. A diversion that not only defined the badge, but put Lotus on the map!

The Esprit is definitely Lotus most famous and most successful model.

[LuS1fer]

It may also be because it is forever pigeonholed with the Elite/Eclat/Excel, none of which were really successful and all of which have never really appreciated in value.

[Notanotherturbo]

My 2 bobs worth. Think they are rising but very hard to be accurate with used car values at the moment as plenty of people are chancing their arm and asking silly money that they will never get. Renault Alpines are the best value junior supercar out there. 50% of the price of an Esprit in equivalent condition and a well looked after one is a fantastic drive. They have been creeping up but when you consider that a 5 Gordini or GT Turbo in equivalent condition to a GTA is worth very similar money its mad. And a nice Turbo 2 is £60K plus when the GTA is better in every definable way and can be had for a tenth of that price. I think alot is to do with it is simply how high the profile of the car is. Very few people really know about GTA's which means there aren't many people to want them and the same goes for the Esprit to a lesser extent. The cars that are rising fast are all super iconic and many from makers who are very successful currently - Porsche/BMW. How good are car was doesn't make that much difference to prices - simply supply and demand and the better known a car is the higher demand.

£5k-£8k Buys you a good one of either car

[swisstoni]

That's probably the real reason. Some cars have all the makings of a great classic but get overlooked.
I think we have the image of classic car buyers as shrewd connoisseurs. Some of them are but most of them are narrow minded and looking to jump on any disappearing bandwagon.

[simonr100]

The Esprit never appreciating has always confused me, it looks lovely, had the James Bond connection etc.
I have always wanted one even though I would never fit in one(I am 6foot 6), I could just look at it and polish it - I think they look that good.
I do however remember being told that they always brake down and the engine has to come out for some very basic jobs?
I still remember being told as a kid that Lotus stood for :-

Lots
Of
Trouble
Usually
Serious

Maybe this image has put people off? I know friends that have had Lotus(not esprits) and have had lots of problems with them.

One day when I have more garage space I will add one to my collection

[MarshPhantom]

simonr100 said:

The Esprit never appreciating has always confused me, it looks lovely, had the James Bond connection etc.
I have always wanted one even though I would never fit in one(I am 6foot 6), I could just look at it and polish it - I think they look that good.
I do however remember being told that they always brake down and the engine has to come out for some very basic jobs?
I still remember being told as a kid that Lotus stood for :-

Lots
Of
Trouble
Usually
Serious

Maybe this image has put people off? I know friends that have had Lotus(not esprits) and have had lots of problems with them.

One day when I have more garage space I will add one to my collection

I was impressed at school when one lads dad bought an Eclat. Not sure it ever left the drive after that.

[Shifter1]

Notanotherturbo said:

My 2 bobs worth. Think they are rising but very hard to be accurate with used car values at the moment as plenty of people are chancing their arm and asking silly money that they will never get. Renault Alpines are the best value junior supercar out there. 50% of the price of an Esprit in equivalent condition and a well looked after one is a fantastic drive. They have been creeping up but when you consider that a 5 Gordini or GT Turbo in equivalent condition to a GTA is worth very similar money its mad. And a nice Turbo 2 is £60K plus when the GTA is better in every definable way and can be had for a tenth of that price. I think alot is to do with it is simply how high the profile of the car is. Very few people really know about GTA's which means there aren't many people to want them and the same goes for the Esprit to a lesser extent. The cars that are rising fast are all super iconic and many from makers who are very successful currently - Porsche/BMW. How good are car was doesn't make that much difference to prices - simply supply and demand and the better known a car is the higher demand.

£5k-£8k Buys you a good one of either car

And which one would I choose?hmmmm.

Just kidding. The GTA of course.;)

But you have a good point though. It's certainly a combination of factors.

We can discuss the reasons here ad nauseam. But the fact is, regardless of the reasons it doesn't actually take anything away from the Esprit. It's an iconic super car from an iconic brand and put forward by iconic geniuses such as Colin Chapman and Giorgetto Giugiaro. The prices do not in any way change what the car actually is or it's perception by people who really understand about cars, motoring history and legacy.

It is a pity that it doesn't get it's due. It deserves it as does Colin Chapman for all the contributions he made to the industry. He is the English Enzo Ferrari (and I'm not British by the way).

But I believe the Esprit's day will certainly come. Till then it is still iconic, ahead of it's time, revolutionary and drop dead gorgeous.

Take advantage that prices are not high yet if you want one and be glad you are able to afford it, for now.

[Shifter1]

swisstoni said:

That's probably the real reason. Some cars have all the makings of a great classic but get overlooked.
I think we have the image of classic car buyers as shrewd connoisseurs. Some of them are but most of them are narrow minded and looking to jump on any disappearing bandwagon.

I agree. Most of them are narrow minded for sure and just follow trends.

[Shifter1]

simonr100 said:

The Esprit never appreciating has always confused me, it looks lovely, had the James Bond connection etc.

But that is the thing. Esprits are actually appreciating. But they are undervalued. But the prices are actually going up with time. They are already higher than when this thread started a couple of years ago.

simonr100 said:

I have always wanted one even though I would never fit in one(I am 6foot 6), I could just look at it and polish it - I think they look that good.
I do however remember being told that they always brake down and the engine has to come out for some very basic jobs?
I still remember being told as a kid that Lotus stood for :-

Lots
Of
Trouble
Usually
Serious

Maybe this image has put people off? I know friends that have had Lotus(not esprits) and have had lots of problems with them.

One day when I have more garage space I will add one to my collection

Cliches!

If a super car is not complex, hard to work on and full of issues, it's not a super car.

Look how everybody says the NSX is too good, boring etc.

But seriously, I didn't even touch on the reliability issues as reasons for the lower prices. Because every super car has them.

The De Tomaso Pantera is a piece of junk then! It has so many issues and on top of that it rusts like there is no tomorrow. Something Esprits will never do. Yet, Panteras are high like crazy now.

I knew somebody who had a Jalpa and that piece of junk gave him so much headache that he just gave up on it and literally gave the car away. The V8 engine in that is crap and low powered and the car was full with issues. I bet today he regrets selling it for so cheap to get rid of it. At that time though you couldn't pay someone to take your Jalpa away from you. Now they are high!

Any old Lamborghini is as much of a headache as an Esprit or pretty much any limited production older super car. Or even some new ones.

So I don't understand why people complain about that. It's like wanting an old American Muscle car and then complaining about high fuel consumption.

[LotusOmega375D]

Notanotherturbo said:

And a nice Turbo 2 is £60K plus when the GTA is better in every definable way and can be had for a tenth of that price.

Hogwash. Have you actually owned both? I had both at the same time. I kept the GTA Turbo for about 6 months and the Turbo 2 for 14 years. That tells you everything you need to know about which is better from my point of view.

[NJH]

GTA also has precisely 0 motorsport pedigree, unlike the A110 which destroys the idea that Alpines aren't valuable cars (the right ones that is). That is the way with classic cars, all sorts of factors lead to a cars desirability. The NSX was mentioned earlier but again that is a another car which has gone crazy the past 3 years compared to flat lined values for many years.

Agree with earlier posters as well on the value of Esprits as contrary to the thread title they most definitely have gone up the past 3 years.

Some cars which are still cheap IMHO include Japanese cars like the various Mitsubishi evo models and the Mazda RX-7, will either appreciate? Don't know but a Tomi Makinen or evo 9 FQ360 may be a decent bet.

[g7jhp]

MarshPhantom said:

Shifter1 said:

g7jhp said:

IMAGE & FIBREGLASS

I love the look of the Lotus Esprit and have thought about buying one on many occasion.

However they do have a nice but fragile image, and I don't think most fibreglass cars appreciate as their metal counterparts.

My perceptions on fiberglass v metal are (rightly or wrongly):

Metal is obviously strong, relatively easily repaired and painted. Downsides are it rusts and weight.

Fibreglass isn't as strong, doesn't take well to bumps, is more costly repair and often has more paint issues. It's light and doesn't rust.

TVR's have gone up but I'd say they have a bigger fan base and are probably perceived as simpler to fix due to the V8s.

Plus they are a top down noisy British Sportscar.

Watch the Lotus Esprit now double in price!

Edited by g7jhp on Saturday 17th September 07:39

As already mentioned, the 308 in fiber glass is more sought after than the metal ones.

I do think your views on fiberglass are a bit misguided.

Only due to the rarity of the fibre glass ones surely?

As stated above Ferrari values are based on rarity. My views maybe misguided, but I do believe the majority prefer metal to fibreglass.

I guess most people storing an expensive rare fibreglass Ferrari have a place to keep it safe.

[blade7]

Shifter1 said:

The prices do not in any way change what the car actually is or it's perception by people who really understand about cars,

[Shifter1]

Well everybody, there is a S1 for $95,000 selling on PH. So there you have it.