Affordable (cheap) RWD for b-road fun
Discussion
Hi - I've been trying to think of cars I could get for relatively little money and I can enjoy on backroads. Ideally I want something non-turbo, 2-litre, light. Car you can throw around, something that feels fairly light and responsive. And I want it rearwheel drive. Before they all go ;-) And the price - £2-3k.
A classic choice would be a 3 series BMW - I prefer a four pot, a light engine over the front wheels. I used to flog an old E30 325 around b-roads in Scotland and it was great fun, even if the rear end was a bit crazy at times. I'm not looking for the same experience. I thought maybe a Miata 1.8, and then throw £500-700 on brakes, suspension and freeing up the engine. I actually would like BMW 320si (with the rather under-performing homologation special 2 litre engine) but that is 7k +. And it is a bit heavy at 1400kg.
Anything else that I can get cheap and blast around? RX8 perhaps? So long as it starts after refuel... I'm just dying for a car I can run hard, brake deep, move around a bit but won't kill me when the engine comes on boil.
Thanks!
A classic choice would be a 3 series BMW - I prefer a four pot, a light engine over the front wheels. I used to flog an old E30 325 around b-roads in Scotland and it was great fun, even if the rear end was a bit crazy at times. I'm not looking for the same experience. I thought maybe a Miata 1.8, and then throw £500-700 on brakes, suspension and freeing up the engine. I actually would like BMW 320si (with the rather under-performing homologation special 2 litre engine) but that is 7k +. And it is a bit heavy at 1400kg.
Anything else that I can get cheap and blast around? RX8 perhaps? So long as it starts after refuel... I'm just dying for a car I can run hard, brake deep, move around a bit but won't kill me when the engine comes on boil.
Thanks!
Well, before you jump to conclusions about the S2000, there's a wealth of ownership experience in this recent thread. S2000 is not really £2-3k fodder, mind.
I would think hard about whether you should be regularly driving so close to the limit on the road, and consider getting something to use on track days where you really can drive ten tenths with a dramatically reduced risk of killing yourself or others.
I would think hard about whether you should be regularly driving so close to the limit on the road, and consider getting something to use on track days where you really can drive ten tenths with a dramatically reduced risk of killing yourself or others.
You make a good point about not driving 10/10ths on the public roads. I don't want it to come across I'm going to be driving flat out, pants-on-fire. Rather, if you have car that isn't all about max grip and colossal power, you can get great enjoyment without going extremely fast - it's that balance of knowing you have to manage the grip, use the engine, and when you find an open spot early in the morning, you can drive hard but within limits. I used to get out at 6am and find open roads, with good visibility and drive. It is not without risk, but then again, I would hardly be the only one enjoying a good drive. The key thing of course is not to risk others.
Yes, S2000 is going to be in 6k range by the looks of things.
Yes, S2000 is going to be in 6k range by the looks of things.
yonex said:
They have engines that the chassis can't deal with. Very hard work.
Absolute nonsense. They're not perfect by any means, but unless you're really ham-fisted with it, they're fine - bit less predictable/controllable than an Mx5 though, mind. So many sources seem to suggest that if you merely walk past one in a light shower, you'll slide into a hedge. Getting a S2000 for £2-3k though will be a bit of a challenge. Mainstream sources seem to bottom out at about £4k...
Edited by mrfunex on Saturday 15th November 22:34
Christ alive, someone asks for advice on a fun b-road car and gets lectured on speed awareness...
Cant go wrong with a MK1 MX5. I'd recommend an early 1.6 over a 1.8, down a b-road there would be nothing between them speed wise and the early 1.6 is far more lively and revvy with a 7,200RPM limit vs 6,800, top end oriented power and a lighter flywheel. The 15BHP more of the 1.8 is offsetted by the fact that it's not as heavy and post 94 cars are 50+kg heavier than pre-94s. 1.6s also come with a shorter ratio diff, and you get a lovely momo wheel as standard. Plus a working oil pressure gauge.
Very good MX5s are being sold for 1.5k and above but you can still pick perfectly useable ones up for well under a grand. Tbh from what you described, they seem like pretty much the only option in your price range; everything else seems to have shot up in value recently. An E30 318is would be a decent shout but in terms of driving dynamics you'd get more for your money with an MX5.
S2ks are well past the 2-3k budget range unfortunately, but if you are considering one, don't be put off by the snappiness; a decent geo will sort it, coilovers will help even more. Electric PAS is a bit of a bummer though and tbh you'd probably have more fun down a B-road in an MX5 and have less chance of losing your licence.
Cant go wrong with a MK1 MX5. I'd recommend an early 1.6 over a 1.8, down a b-road there would be nothing between them speed wise and the early 1.6 is far more lively and revvy with a 7,200RPM limit vs 6,800, top end oriented power and a lighter flywheel. The 15BHP more of the 1.8 is offsetted by the fact that it's not as heavy and post 94 cars are 50+kg heavier than pre-94s. 1.6s also come with a shorter ratio diff, and you get a lovely momo wheel as standard. Plus a working oil pressure gauge.
Very good MX5s are being sold for 1.5k and above but you can still pick perfectly useable ones up for well under a grand. Tbh from what you described, they seem like pretty much the only option in your price range; everything else seems to have shot up in value recently. An E30 318is would be a decent shout but in terms of driving dynamics you'd get more for your money with an MX5.
S2ks are well past the 2-3k budget range unfortunately, but if you are considering one, don't be put off by the snappiness; a decent geo will sort it, coilovers will help even more. Electric PAS is a bit of a bummer though and tbh you'd probably have more fun down a B-road in an MX5 and have less chance of losing your licence.
mrfunex said:
Absolute nonsense.
They're not perfect by any means, but unless you're really ham-fisted with it, they're fine - bit less predictable/controllable than an Mx5 though, mind. So many sources seem to suggest that if you merely walk past one in a light shower, you'll slide into a hedge. Getting a S2000 for £2-3k though will be a bit of a challenge. Mainstream sources seem to bottom out at about £4k...
Firstly they are not in the OP's budget. Secondly I am not ham fisted. 'Fine' for you maybe all you need but I have driven all variants up until the last one (which I didn't bother with) and all of them left me frustrated. Great engine, probably the best gearbox I have ever used but the rear end is just so badly controlled. Lots of articles moan about the steering but it wasn't any worse than most mass produced things despite not being close to something like a Boxster. I had six years in the Integra and it wasn't just faster than the S2K over a bumpy back road it destroyed it. The car never, ever settled on it's suspension, it was always sending out mixed signals and it was pure guesswork whether you could lean on the throttle or be prepared for correction. The MX5 in comparison never got out of shape in that way, it was more fluid, it had grip and then let go in a way that made you confident. I remember this same conversation with a guy from the S2K forum. I was saying that as a track car the S2 is great, but on bumpy roads or wet roads it was heavily compromised. He basically said the same thing as you, i.e. I didn't know how to drive. He wrote his car off in the wet some time later. Personally a fast car that restricts you because it lacks feedback is actually worse than a car that has lower limits and can let you know. They're not perfect by any means, but unless you're really ham-fisted with it, they're fine - bit less predictable/controllable than an Mx5 though, mind. So many sources seem to suggest that if you merely walk past one in a light shower, you'll slide into a hedge. Getting a S2000 for £2-3k though will be a bit of a challenge. Mainstream sources seem to bottom out at about £4k...
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 15th November 22:34
They are a masterpiece of engineering (engine) but the chassis isn't up to the job. Sorry.
Great advice on the MX5 1.6 - the livelier smaller engine looks the way to go. I'll research. You got me thinking hard about this option.
325ti - never thought about; really interesting suggestion and I started googling it. Not what I had in mind but open to new ideas. Never liked the looks but that's not what it is about.
I could stretch the budget to an S2000 although I'm not convinced. Awesome engine, light and involving. I don't want exclude cars just because my original budget makes almost everything out of reach. But an MX5 is at least is a genuine option.
Now, a well fettled Opel Mantra might be solid fun ;-)
325ti - never thought about; really interesting suggestion and I started googling it. Not what I had in mind but open to new ideas. Never liked the looks but that's not what it is about.
I could stretch the budget to an S2000 although I'm not convinced. Awesome engine, light and involving. I don't want exclude cars just because my original budget makes almost everything out of reach. But an MX5 is at least is a genuine option.
Now, a well fettled Opel Mantra might be solid fun ;-)
scrabbling said:
Great advice on the MX5 1.6 - the livelier smaller engine looks the way to go. I'll research. You got me thinking hard about this option.
325ti - never thought about; really interesting suggestion and I started googling it. Not what I had in mind but open to new ideas. Never liked the looks but that's not what it is about.
I could stretch the budget to an S2000 although I'm not convinced. Awesome engine, light and involving. I don't want exclude cars just because my original budget makes almost everything out of reach. But an MX5 is at least is a genuine option.
Now, a well fettled Opel Mantra might be solid fun ;-)
Deffo look at the MGT. The MX5 is a fun car. Cheap S2K's should be viewed with caution. Be sure to check the bushes which are an absolute pig and expensive to sort out, the alignment is crucial to making them drive well. My money would go on the Mazda.325ti - never thought about; really interesting suggestion and I started googling it. Not what I had in mind but open to new ideas. Never liked the looks but that's not what it is about.
I could stretch the budget to an S2000 although I'm not convinced. Awesome engine, light and involving. I don't want exclude cars just because my original budget makes almost everything out of reach. But an MX5 is at least is a genuine option.
Now, a well fettled Opel Mantra might be solid fun ;-)
scrabbling said:
On the MG TF - the prices are nice and low... Can you really fling it around? I imagine you are concerned about keeping the rear planted to avoid doing a sudden and unwanted pirouette!?
Having done a couple of track days at Kirkistown in my dad's MGF, they're fairly chuckable.His is on some cheap "arrowspeed" tyres. These have been on for both track days and 10k miles at least, with no real signs of wear.
Hence my fairly spectacular spin coming out of the chicane
When they go, they really go big style. Hence good tyres are a must, and don't push the limits of the rear. It's the same with most mid engined cars though.
scrabbling said:
Great advice on the MX5 1.6 - the livelier smaller engine looks the way to go. I'll research. You got me thinking hard about this option.
325ti - never thought about; really interesting suggestion and I started googling it. Not what I had in mind but open to new ideas. Never liked the looks but that's not what it is about.
I could stretch the budget to an S2000 although I'm not convinced. Awesome engine, light and involving. I don't want exclude cars just because my original budget makes almost everything out of reach. But an MX5 is at least is a genuine option.
Now, a well fettled Opel Mantra might be solid fun ;-)
Just make sure you get a pre-1994 car as they had 115BHP. Later 1.6s had different cams and lower compression, rated at 89BHP to create an insurance friendly version. Watch out on 89-91 cars for the short nose crank issue. Google will tell you more but essentially the crankshaf engagement on the bottom pulley wasn't great and as such, some will suffer from a crank pulley wobble which will eventually end in bottom end failure. I have a 90 car with the original short nose crank and it's completely fine, but it's worth a check.325ti - never thought about; really interesting suggestion and I started googling it. Not what I had in mind but open to new ideas. Never liked the looks but that's not what it is about.
I could stretch the budget to an S2000 although I'm not convinced. Awesome engine, light and involving. I don't want exclude cars just because my original budget makes almost everything out of reach. But an MX5 is at least is a genuine option.
Now, a well fettled Opel Mantra might be solid fun ;-)
If you're considering a 325ti and a six pot floats your boat, get an E36 325/328 instead. Lighter, more talkative chassis, cable throttled responsive engine, more parts available, cheaper, easier to sell on, better looking... list goes on really. In terms of E36 325 vs 328, if you're intending to keep them standard then 325 is the best bet. If you're okay with a few mods then get a 328. 328s are plagued as standard with a 2.93 ratio diff and a restrictive intake that creates a lovely torquey powerband at 4k but means it's pretty boring and fruitless to take it past 5k. With a 3.15 diff and a manifold from the 325i, they are woken up and become faster and arguably nicer cars than 325s, but 325s are good to go straight out the box and a well driven 325 will keep up with a 328 easily. From my experience, they are more fun engines than the 2.8s. Revvier, better sounding and stronger.
Gooly said:
Christ alive, someone asks for advice on a fun b-road car and gets lectured on speed awareness...
That wasn't my intention! I like a bit of a play on a good road as much as the next guy, and make a point of it whenever in Scotland, but it was just the "run hard, brake deep, move around a bit" line that made me think track days are a worthwhile alternative. I often find it unsatisfying trying to get the most out of a well-sorted car on the road because most of the time, you just can't, even if it's possible at sensible speeds getting a good flow without taking daft risks is very rare. On the other hand, loads of safe and guilt-free fun is to be had on track days!Since we're considering E36s, I'll have to plug the 328i, my £900 example I bought for track days and sprints has been mega so far, thread here. Goes nicely and sounds awesome with a decent intake system. Or a hashed-together one made of eBay pipes and hoses like mine
If you're open to widening the budget, I recently considered stuff that could make a nice road car and be good on track days for £5k, which led me to S2000, Z4 3.0i, 350Z, E36 M3 or Boxster.
I imagine some of these are too heavy for what you're after, but a Mk2 MR2 might be an idea. Hard to beat a nicely sorted MX-5 in the £2k range though.
Get yourself a 318is E30 and add as much lightness as you can.
Read this for some inspiration > http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=145...
Read this for some inspiration > http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=145...
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