Garage blown my engine - where do I stand?

[bosshog]

Hi all,

Our 320d went to my local garage to have the turbo replaced after it had gone. Over the last week when I called they said there was oil still in the manifold and they need to take it out as the car wouldn't stop once started. I thought this a bit odd but didn't say anything. Anyhow I just went down in person to the garage to see what was going on , and it turns out when they started the car it rev'ed it self to full max 'until they could get the fuel pipe off'. The engine won't start now and he says 'perhaps a bent value'..He will look at it...

Now they could have done some real long term damage here, aside from that where do I said legally cost wise? Will I have to lump this or are the garage to blame?

[Monkeylegend]

At the nearest bus stop by the sounds of it.

[thatdude]

The garage are to blame. With a turbo issue there is a high possibility of oil getting into the engine and a runaway occuring (and depending on the side of the turbo that failed, this may have been predicted).

The fault lies with them as the vehicle was in their care.

Quick question; if it was running on residual oil in the inlet (which must have been quite a large amount) why was removing the fuel pipe the correct way to deal with this? If I got a diesel engine running, and there was sufficient oil available to keep the engine running, then I could theoretically shut off the fuel pump / injectors / whatever and it would still carry on running because it is running on oil.

Did they first try and hit the "stop engine" button to stop the injectors / pump / whatever?

Do you see what I mean?

Edited by thatdude on Tuesday 18th November 10:59

[Randomthoughts]

You stand hoping they have proper professional indemnity insurance, a big pot of cash to fix it or both of the above.

It's absolutely their responsibility to ensure that the engine is properly fixed. Getting them to do it may be another issue if they're a small outfit.

[bosshog]

thatdude said:

The garage are to blame. With a turbo issue there is a high possibility of oil getting into the engine and a runaway occuring (and depending on the side of the turbo that failed, this may have been predicted).

The fault lies with them as the vehicle was in their care.

Quick question; if it was running on residual oil in the inlet (which must have been quite a large amount) why was removing the fuel pipe the correct way to deal with this? If I got a diesel engine running, and there was sufficient oil available to keep the engine running, then I could theoretically shut off the fuel pump / injectors / whatever and it would still carry on running because it is running on oil.

Did they first try and hit the "stop engine" button to stop the injectors / pump / whatever?

Do you see what I mean?

Edited by thatdude on Tuesday 18th November 10:59

Yeah I don't really understand what has happened here. Is it basically, that because there is oil in the manifold this creates an immediate vacuum that makes the injectors think that its ok to open right up? Surely just hitting the stop button on the car would kill the injectors as they are computer/electronically controlled?

I suppose I will want to see if they do the work and lump the cost. :-/

[Superhoop]

No, It's because the oil in the manifold is being used as fuel by the engine

[HorneyMX5]

bosshog said:

thatdude said:

The garage are to blame. With a turbo issue there is a high possibility of oil getting into the engine and a runaway occuring (and depending on the side of the turbo that failed, this may have been predicted).

The fault lies with them as the vehicle was in their care.

Quick question; if it was running on residual oil in the inlet (which must have been quite a large amount) why was removing the fuel pipe the correct way to deal with this? If I got a diesel engine running, and there was sufficient oil available to keep the engine running, then I could theoretically shut off the fuel pump / injectors / whatever and it would still carry on running because it is running on oil.

Did they first try and hit the "stop engine" button to stop the injectors / pump / whatever?

Do you see what I mean?

Edited by thatdude on Tuesday 18th November 10:59

Yeah I don't really understand what has happened here. Is it basically, that because there is oil in the manifold this creates an immediate vacuum that makes the injectors think that its ok to open right up? Surely just hitting the stop button on the car would kill the injectors as they are computer/electronically controlled?

I suppose I will want to see if they do the work and lump the cost. :-/

Running on is where the engine consumes it's own oil as fuel. Turning off the injectors does nothing. The car will run on until it seizes the engine from using all it's oil or you manage to strangle the air inlet enough to shut the engine down.

[skyrover]

bosshog said:

Yeah I don't really understand what has happened here. Is it basically, that because there is oil in the manifold this creates an immediate vacuum that makes the injectors think that its ok to open right up? Surely just hitting the stop button on the car would kill the injectors as they are computer/electronically controlled?

I suppose I will want to see if they do the work and lump the cost. :-/

Killing the injectors would not stop the runaway.

It is ingesting it's own oil and burning that as fuel... it can't be stopped without choking off the air supply

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno

Edited by skyrover on Tuesday 18th November 11:19

[twink]

bosshog said:

Yeah I don't really understand what has happened here. Is it basically, that because there is oil in the manifold this creates an immediate vacuum that makes the injectors think that its ok to open right up? Surely just hitting the stop button on the car would kill the injectors as they are computer/electronically controlled?

I suppose I will want to see if they do the work and lump the cost. :-/

A run away diesel engine will NOT stop if you take the key out or even disconnect the battery. Once the engine begins to run on oil from either what's in the manifold, or a failed turbo oil seal etc. there is no stopping it. The engine is now running on oil, not diesel. It will simply rev and rev and rev until it either runs out of oil, smashes itself to bits internally, or seizes up.

The only way to stop it is to block the air intake to the engine completely, or stall the engine. In theory you could also remove the oil feed if you know where it's getting in to the engine but by the time you've arsed about with tools etc to remove a pipe or whatever, the engine will more than likely be toast.

Edited by twink on Tuesday 18th November 11:22

[ikarl]

is it possible to 'stall' the car to shut it off?

i.e. into 5th gear, foot hard on the brake and lift the clutch? (if you see what I'm getting at)

[r11co]

OOOh dear. A diesel engine ingesting its own oil is one of those things that are scary, fascinating, dangerous and runinous in equal measures.

A garage that thinks disconnecting the fuel line is a solution to the problem is not one I would not trust to work on my car. Blocking off the air intake and suffocating the engine is the only answer (or if you have a large CO2 fire extinguisher to hand, discharge it up the air intake).

If the engine was allowed to rev itself to a stop then it is shagged as it will have drained itself of most of its lubrication and burnt it as fuel. 'Bent valve' is an optimistic head-in-the-sand prognosis.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 18th November 11:28

[RobinBanks]

ikarl said:

is it possible to 'stall' the car to shut it off?

i.e. into 5th gear, foot hard on the brake and lift the clutch? (if you see what I'm getting at)

Yes. That's how they're usually stopped, I've found.

Not much use if you drive an automatic though!

[bosshog]

r11co said:

OOOh dear. A diesel engine ingesting its own oil is one of those things that are scary, fascinating, dangerous and runinous in equal measures.

A garage that thinks disconnecting the fuel line is a solution to the problem is not one I would not trust to work on my car. Blocking off the air intake and suffocating the engine is the only answer (or if you have a large CO2 fire extinguisher to hand, discharge it up the air intake).

If the engine was allowed to rev itself to a stop then it is shagged as it will have drained itself of most of its lubrication and burnt it as fuel. 'Bent valve' is an optimistic head-in-the-sand prognosis.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 18th November 11:28

So you think the engine will be completely b*ggered? bottom end, bearings, pistons, valves etc? Jez have they just written off the car?

[Randomthoughts]

bosshog said:

So you think the engine will be completely b*ggered? bottom end, bearings, pistons, valves etc? Jez have they just written off the car?

There's likely to be very little of the engine that hasn't suffered from oil starvation if it truly was oil being consumed.

[PhillipM]

Were they using a secondhand replacement turbo perchance? Either that or someone buggered up the oil seal on the replacement...

[thatdude]

Just to clarify bosshog, diesel engines work on compression ignition i.e. if thre is a combustable material and air, given enough compression it will ignite (there are no spark plugs). The main safety issue of diesels is this point exactly, that they can just "run away".

One has to remove the oxygen (completely discharge a large carbon dioxide fire extinguisher in the intake perhaps?) or hope that it'll just consume the fuel it's using. Either way, there is no RPM control so the thing just goes for it.

edit - sorry if that's talking down to you, maybe you already knew this!

edit 2 - the engine is likely completely shagged and ruined. They should replace the engine, or buy the car off you for what it was worth before they fked it.

Edited by thatdude on Tuesday 18th November 12:44

[judas]

RobinBanks said:

ikarl said:

is it possible to 'stall' the car to shut it off?

i.e. into 5th gear, foot hard on the brake and lift the clutch? (if you see what I'm getting at)

Yes. That's how they're usually stopped, I've found.

Not much use if you drive an automatic though!

CO2 fire extinguisher fired into the intake will also work as it starves the engine of oxygen needed for combustion. Gotta be quick about it though!

ETA: beaten to it above

[sticks090460]

I'd go and stand in my solicitor's office and give him the details if I were you. You're probably going to need him fairly shortly.

[Hooli]

bosshog said:

r11co said:

OOOh dear. A diesel engine ingesting its own oil is one of those things that are scary, fascinating, dangerous and runinous in equal measures.

A garage that thinks disconnecting the fuel line is a solution to the problem is not one I would not trust to work on my car. Blocking off the air intake and suffocating the engine is the only answer (or if you have a large CO2 fire extinguisher to hand, discharge it up the air intake).

If the engine was allowed to rev itself to a stop then it is shagged as it will have drained itself of most of its lubrication and burnt it as fuel. 'Bent valve' is an optimistic head-in-the-sand prognosis.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 18th November 11:28

So you think the engine will be completely b*ggered? bottom end, bearings, pistons, valves etc? Jez have they just written off the car?

I saw a Land Cruiser do it once, utterly fked the engine.

[r11co]

bosshog said:

So you think the engine will be completely b*ggered? bottom end, bearings, pistons, valves etc? Jez have they just written off the car?

IMO almost certainly yes if it has been allowed to self-run for even a few seconds.

It is a cycle of destruction that takes hold pretty quickly - the engine is effectively sucking on its own lubrication as an uncontrolled fuel source. No rev limiter takes hold as the 'fuel' flow is not being controlled in the usual way, so the engine reaches a state it was never designed to very quickly and at the same time empties itself of any protection it has against the situation.

Don't be fobbed off on this one. Even if they get the engine running again (which TBH I am not hopeful of) it'll run like a bag of spanners anyway.