Garage blown my engine - where do I stand?
Discussion
zedx19 said:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-N47D20A-ENGINE-SUPPL...
I'm not up on my BMW's, but is this not the engine in question? Supply, fit, 6 month warranty for £1795.
Isn't that those Heathrow Engines lot?I'm not up on my BMW's, but is this not the engine in question? Supply, fit, 6 month warranty for £1795.
stuart-b said:
Sorry but I don't think it is as simple as "he supplied the part therefore he is to blame".
This is nonsense
1. Did the garage make you sign a waiver which retracts your rights?
2. Do the garage have any terms of business online or on paper which state in the event of a complete failure after repairs customer is liable if they supplied their own parts?
3. They are a profession garage providing a service. One would expect them to be prepared for a run-on all the time and have co2 ready to fire into the inlet/air filter. You can't setup as a professional body, take on work and then pass the blame when it is your responsibility as a garage to cover risks associated with doing your own job.
4. The garage accepted the part and performed the work-under tort law isn't there an area specific to 'acceptance by performance' in relation to risk as well as compensation? I.e. they understood and accepted burden of risk-especially as OP has not signed a waiver accepting all liability in the event of a failure (which any court would assume unreasonable as the OP cannot monitor what is being done) any legal bods to assit here?
OP I am not legally trained just raising points which I think may be valid based on my experiences with commercial contracts over the years.
I would personally fight it if I were you.
Offer them the money you would have paid anyway for the proper job. But they can't fob you off here.
I had a look at the trading website - it seems we have some form of statutory rights, how far they extend I do not know. Thanks for your comments though.This is nonsense
1. Did the garage make you sign a waiver which retracts your rights?
2. Do the garage have any terms of business online or on paper which state in the event of a complete failure after repairs customer is liable if they supplied their own parts?
3. They are a profession garage providing a service. One would expect them to be prepared for a run-on all the time and have co2 ready to fire into the inlet/air filter. You can't setup as a professional body, take on work and then pass the blame when it is your responsibility as a garage to cover risks associated with doing your own job.
4. The garage accepted the part and performed the work-under tort law isn't there an area specific to 'acceptance by performance' in relation to risk as well as compensation? I.e. they understood and accepted burden of risk-especially as OP has not signed a waiver accepting all liability in the event of a failure (which any court would assume unreasonable as the OP cannot monitor what is being done) any legal bods to assit here?
OP I am not legally trained just raising points which I think may be valid based on my experiences with commercial contracts over the years.
I would personally fight it if I were you.
Offer them the money you would have paid anyway for the proper job. But they can't fob you off here.
Edited by stuart-b on Thursday 27th November 07:54
stuart-b said:
Sorry but I don't think it is as simple as "he supplied the part therefore he is to blame".
This is nonsense
1. Did the garage make you sign a waiver which retracts your rights?
2. Do the garage have any terms of business online or on paper which state in the event of a complete failure after repairs customer is liable if they supplied their own parts?
3. They are a profession garage providing a service. One would expect them to be prepared for a run-on all the time and have co2 ready to fire into the inlet/air filter. You can't setup as a professional body, take on work and then pass the blame when it is your responsibility as a garage to cover risks associated with doing your own job.
4. The garage accepted the part and performed the work-under tort law isn't there an area specific to 'acceptance by performance' in relation to risk as well as compensation? I.e. they understood and accepted burden of risk-especially as OP has not signed a waiver accepting all liability in the event of a failure (which any court would assume unreasonable as the OP cannot monitor what is being done) any legal bods to assit here?
OP I am not legally trained just raising points which I think may be valid based on my experiences with commercial contracts over the years.
I would personally fight it if I were you.
Offer them the money you would have paid anyway for the proper job. But they can't fob you off here.
I don't agree that the garage is necessarily talking nonsense or fobbing anyone off.This is nonsense
1. Did the garage make you sign a waiver which retracts your rights?
2. Do the garage have any terms of business online or on paper which state in the event of a complete failure after repairs customer is liable if they supplied their own parts?
3. They are a profession garage providing a service. One would expect them to be prepared for a run-on all the time and have co2 ready to fire into the inlet/air filter. You can't setup as a professional body, take on work and then pass the blame when it is your responsibility as a garage to cover risks associated with doing your own job.
4. The garage accepted the part and performed the work-under tort law isn't there an area specific to 'acceptance by performance' in relation to risk as well as compensation? I.e. they understood and accepted burden of risk-especially as OP has not signed a waiver accepting all liability in the event of a failure (which any court would assume unreasonable as the OP cannot monitor what is being done) any legal bods to assit here?
OP I am not legally trained just raising points which I think may be valid based on my experiences with commercial contracts over the years.
I would personally fight it if I were you.
Offer them the money you would have paid anyway for the proper job. But they can't fob you off here.
Edited by stuart-b on Thursday 27th November 07:54
Leaving aside the engine blow-up for a moment, if the OP has asked a garage to fit a faulty part then he must pay the garage to fit it, ask and pay them to remove it again and presumably ask and pay them to either fit another one supplied by customer or ask and pay the garage to supply and fit.
If the customer wants the garage to inspect the supplied part then he must ask them to do so and pay them to do so. I doubt any garage would place any warranty on a part supplied by a third party - that's for the third party to do so, but who pays for the faulty part to be removed?
Obviously the garage will have a duty of care to not fit a part that is obviously faulty, but I can't see how they can be liable for an internal fault (such as an oil seal) that can not be seen without stripping down and rebuilding.
I do think it is often very unwise for a customer to supply a part and indeed for the garage to fit a supplied part, and I'm sure this garage is regretting doing so.
zedx19 said:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-N47D20A-ENGINE-SUPPL...
I'm not up on my BMW's, but is this not the engine in question? Supply, fit, 6 month warranty for £1795.
thats a lot of money plus we live many many mile away.I'm not up on my BMW's, but is this not the engine in question? Supply, fit, 6 month warranty for £1795.
skyrover said:
It really depends...
A big V8 diesel like the one described may have a very large sump of oil, so the engine will spent a great deal of time at high RPM until the oil is exhausted.
An engine that burns through it' oil quicker will probably seize before it has a chance to rip itself apart..
Either way, it's not really a chance you want to be taking. If you can't choke the air or stall the motor quickly, than stand well clear.
30 quarts in the sump is 30 litres or near enough, plenty to keep it going for a long time!A big V8 diesel like the one described may have a very large sump of oil, so the engine will spent a great deal of time at high RPM until the oil is exhausted.
An engine that burns through it' oil quicker will probably seize before it has a chance to rip itself apart..
Either way, it's not really a chance you want to be taking. If you can't choke the air or stall the motor quickly, than stand well clear.
PugwasHDJ80 said:
That's the second time today for him, unlucky.bosshog said:
zedx19 said:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-N47D20A-ENGINE-SUPPL...
I'm not up on my BMW's, but is this not the engine in question? Supply, fit, 6 month warranty for £1795.
thats a lot of money plus we live many many mile away.I'm not up on my BMW's, but is this not the engine in question? Supply, fit, 6 month warranty for £1795.
1. get proper legal advice asap re' liability of the garage to replace the engine or not
2. avoid the supply and fit ebay places - there are too many rogue suppliers who once they have your car will rip you off/string you along (search 'Heathrow engines problem' to see how many).
3. start the process of finding a replacement used engine from a decent BMW breaker with a view the garage will pay for this/fit this. A BMW breaker will supply a bare engine with a 1 to 3 month guarantee (provided its fitted by a VAT registered garage). There is no chance of getting one cheap these engines are hard to get and have a going rate (depends which year). Get the garage to order the engine so its down to them not you. You need the engine code from your car and start emailing ebay BMW breakers to see if they have one.
Worst case scenario the garage pays for the engine with your credit card and the garage fits it you then take them to court for the cost of the engine.
The normal labour cost to change the engine should be under £500.
These engines are not cheap used, late model 320D around £2k, old model sub £1k (if its sounds too good to be true avoid it).
Don't fall out with the garage ideally sort it out between you once you have good legal advice.
Edited by rallycross on Thursday 27th November 11:36
Just a couple of other thoughts (better late than never).
If your local citizens' advice bureau is good (the quality you get can vary) as a first port of call it could save you a bit of money on professional fees.
Secondly, I had a turbo fitted to my Saab when it looked like the existing one was at death's door (using lots of oil etc). I supplied the turbo myself (ebay bargain that had done 10k before the donor car popped it's socks). The garage told me in advance if the replacement unit was no good, it would be down to my account. They also confirmed precisely what other parts they would need to replace (think pipes, washers, bolts and the like) and what work they would do to the turbo before they fitted it (like a fitting / overhaul kit if I remember correctly). If you do need to resort to legal action, did they warn you if the turbo failed you are responsible (if indeed it's the reason for the engine going futt) and did they follow their prescribed procedure for swapping the new turbo in (if so, what was it)?
Again, good luck.
If your local citizens' advice bureau is good (the quality you get can vary) as a first port of call it could save you a bit of money on professional fees.
Secondly, I had a turbo fitted to my Saab when it looked like the existing one was at death's door (using lots of oil etc). I supplied the turbo myself (ebay bargain that had done 10k before the donor car popped it's socks). The garage told me in advance if the replacement unit was no good, it would be down to my account. They also confirmed precisely what other parts they would need to replace (think pipes, washers, bolts and the like) and what work they would do to the turbo before they fitted it (like a fitting / overhaul kit if I remember correctly). If you do need to resort to legal action, did they warn you if the turbo failed you are responsible (if indeed it's the reason for the engine going futt) and did they follow their prescribed procedure for swapping the new turbo in (if so, what was it)?
Again, good luck.
stuart-b said:
Sorry but I don't think it is as simple as "he supplied the part therefore he is to blame".
This is nonsense
It's notThis is nonsense
When you supply parts to a garage, you lose all right in terms of warranty. The garage have no idea of the source of the parts so can't garauntee them.
Devils advocate: OP's turbo breaks, he buys a second hand turbo from ebay, buy a seal kit, cleans it up so it looks new, fits the seals, takes it to the garage.
It's an extreme case, but I've had someone ask if I could fit a second hand clutch before for Christ sake lol
Still interested to see how it pans out, and I still believe the fault to be poor worksmanship for the record.
Andyjc86 said:
It's not
When you supply parts to a garage, you lose all right in terms of warranty. The garage have no idea of the source of the parts so can't garauntee them.
Devils advocate: OP's turbo breaks, he buys a second hand turbo from ebay, buy a seal kit, cleans it up so it looks new, fits the seals, takes it to the garage.
It's an extreme case, but I've had someone ask if I could fit a second hand clutch before for Christ sake lol
Still interested to see how it pans out, and I still believe the fault to be poor worksmanship for the record.
Can you quote actual terms and conditions and/or law to back that up? The garage don't have to accept the part, but they did.When you supply parts to a garage, you lose all right in terms of warranty. The garage have no idea of the source of the parts so can't garauntee them.
Devils advocate: OP's turbo breaks, he buys a second hand turbo from ebay, buy a seal kit, cleans it up so it looks new, fits the seals, takes it to the garage.
It's an extreme case, but I've had someone ask if I could fit a second hand clutch before for Christ sake lol
Still interested to see how it pans out, and I still believe the fault to be poor worksmanship for the record.
If he bought a reconditioned turbo, it could be argued that the garage could use the same supplier.
At the end of the day the garage should have processes in place to handle possible outcomes when working with diesel engines and they didn't. The fact the OP said they tried to pull the fuel line just says it all really.
stuart-b said:
Andyjc86 said:
It's not
When you supply parts to a garage, you lose all right in terms of warranty. The garage have no idea of the source of the parts so can't garauntee them.
Devils advocate: OP's turbo breaks, he buys a second hand turbo from ebay, buy a seal kit, cleans it up so it looks new, fits the seals, takes it to the garage.
It's an extreme case, but I've had someone ask if I could fit a second hand clutch before for Christ sake lol
Still interested to see how it pans out, and I still believe the fault to be poor worksmanship for the record.
Can you quote actual terms and conditions and/or law to back that up? The garage don't have to accept the part, but they did.When you supply parts to a garage, you lose all right in terms of warranty. The garage have no idea of the source of the parts so can't garauntee them.
Devils advocate: OP's turbo breaks, he buys a second hand turbo from ebay, buy a seal kit, cleans it up so it looks new, fits the seals, takes it to the garage.
It's an extreme case, but I've had someone ask if I could fit a second hand clutch before for Christ sake lol
Still interested to see how it pans out, and I still believe the fault to be poor worksmanship for the record.
If he bought a reconditioned turbo, it could be argued that the garage could use the same supplier.
At the end of the day the garage should have processes in place to handle possible outcomes when working with diesel engines and they didn't. The fact the OP said they tried to pull the fuel line just says it all really.
"So I went down to the garage this morning. They said they managed to stop the engine by blocking off the air before it burned all the oil. "
Calza said:
Genuine question - do they really exploded with that big a bang and that much force?
Many years ago I doing some work at a waste paper processing plant, they had a massive hammer mill (http://www.phxequip.com/equipment.6333/7706.aspx) that was driven by an old Scamell lorry engine, that ran away. Conrod punched a massive hole in the block, sounded like a bomb had gone off!Andyjc86 said:
stuart-b said:
Sorry but I don't think it is as simple as "he supplied the part therefore he is to blame".
This is nonsense
It's notThis is nonsense
When you supply parts to a garage, you lose all right in terms of warranty. The garage have no idea of the source of the parts so can't garauntee them.
Devils advocate: OP's turbo breaks, he buys a second hand turbo from ebay, buy a seal kit, cleans it up so it looks new, fits the seals, takes it to the garage.
It's an extreme case, but I've had someone ask if I could fit a second hand clutch before for Christ sake lol
Still interested to see how it pans out, and I still believe the fault to be poor worksmanship for the record.
The facts are (I think) that the engine failed catastrophically when started after fitting a new turbo.
The questions are:
1) Was the failure a result of the turbo supplied by the OP?
2) Was the failure a result of the garage failing to fit the turbo correctly?
3) Given that there was a failure, was the amount of damage made worse because the garage failed to stop the engine quickly?
So there is one reason where the OP is responsible and two where the garage is. Like any real life situation it's likely to be a combination.
For (1) you can complicate this if you want by asking whether the garage should have inspected the turbo before fitting and to what extent the OP can rely on this. I would say that, in the absence of any explicit agreement, any obvious defects should have been spotted.
Advice to the OP:
- Work out what you will settle for - i.e. what will you pay. This will probably be more than your first reaction, but realise that almost everything else will cost more.
- Marshall your arguments (like the above if that reflects the facts correctly). Possibly get a solicitor to help you.
- Go and negotiate with the garage and try to achieve a settlement.
- Don't be afraid to threaten plan B.
- If you can't get agreement ask whether they would have another discussion with a mediator or dispute resolution person involved (not binding arbitration - just a third voice in the discussion)
- Plan B would be to remove the car and all the parts somewhere else, buy another engine, have it fitted, hire an alternative car (only if you can prove the need* and at low cost), tot up all your costs, come back and sue the garage for the total cost.
For some people plan B would be plan A but you need money, space (to store the vehicle), time, energy & patience.
In the event of plan B and you end up in court (hopefully on small claims track) I would expect that you would not succeed in your full claim. Mostly because there won't be enough evidence to decide between questions (1) and (2), however I would expect (3) to weigh quite heavily. Therefore your outcome will depend on the quality of your's and their arguments and the feeling of the judge - not really a great place to be.
- If you really need to hire then really you'll be hiring already. IMO.
Hi All,
I thought I'd give an update to what has happened. After a standoff with the garage where they refused to pay for anything, we sort legal advice on the matter and it clearly landed in the garages realm even though we supplied the turbo. After a frank and honest conversation with the garage they agree to claim/request a claim on their liability insurance. The insurance company sent an expert to assess what had happened to the car and what was to be done. The result was there was no issue with the turbo, but simply a case of oil consumption run away, and they declared the car a right off and was taken away.
3 months of hassle all said and done. The garage still had the cheek to send a bill for work done.
I thought I'd give an update to what has happened. After a standoff with the garage where they refused to pay for anything, we sort legal advice on the matter and it clearly landed in the garages realm even though we supplied the turbo. After a frank and honest conversation with the garage they agree to claim/request a claim on their liability insurance. The insurance company sent an expert to assess what had happened to the car and what was to be done. The result was there was no issue with the turbo, but simply a case of oil consumption run away, and they declared the car a right off and was taken away.
3 months of hassle all said and done. The garage still had the cheek to send a bill for work done.
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