Garage blown my engine - where do I stand?

[bosshog]

PugwasHDJ80 said:

My experience of this happeneing:

Oil seal on the turbo going and the turbo sucking oil into the inlet and blowing into the engine- basically sucking the engine dry
Overfilling the engine with oil- the oil sits above the bottom of the oil rings and the engine starts to suck in engine oil- very quickly consuming the whole lot

I think this happened.
Only time will tell now once they look at it later in the week.

[SturdyHSV]

I was unaware this was possible. How cool!

Garage's fault, let's hope they've got a spare engine lying around...

[Rammy76]

Playsatan said:

Sounds like a massive PITA but just be thankful it didn't happen when you were driving it, particularly if you have an automatic.

Out of interest (as a large derv/auto owner) what is the strategy if this were to happen?

It happened to my old Passat Pd130 just 5 miles after leaving to go on holiday

I'd say that because I was driving it I was actually in a better situation to save the engine.

I was in 3rd gear accelerating down a slip road to join the A1 then I dipped the clutch to change into 4th and the revs went round the clock. I instinctively looked in the rear view mirror and the smoke was horrendous (poor HGV driver behind me ). Anyway, I quickly engaged 6th gear and stalled it on the brakes.

The turbo specialists I took it to made a point in cleaning all the old oil out of the varous parts of the engine it wasn't meant to be in, it doesn't sound like that's been done to the OP's car.

Obligatory picture showing the car rather precariously left on the slip road off the A1, it's as far as I could coast it to!

[stuart-b]

320d engine is very expensive (not sure what model OP?) I was quoted 5k for the basic engine if the timing chain broke

[PugwasHDJ80]

bosshog said:

The Crack Fox said:

What happened to your turbo? When that went pop how can you prove that it didn't (directly or indirectly) cause further damage? Assuming your engine wasn't running when you took it in you have no idea what was and wasn't already knackered. I'd go easy on the blame until the garage give you a full and detailed report on what it wrong, and (most importantly) how much they expect you to pay...

Good luck

The engine was running fine, with no warning lights or anything. Turbo was just wining like a b*tch. Can I prove that? no not unless i have a time machine and a video camera

Dieselling the engine kills it dead (unless you are very very quick and/or lucky), but most people aren't either of those. what happens is that the engine runs at its maximum possible speed (which is higher than the rev limiter would allow) and you often find that pistons have melted, valves have bounced, bores are scored, and then at the very end, when the engine is red hot, it runs out of oil and totally seizes.

So if the engine was running at the time it was dropped off (probably by a recovery driver), or you drove it there then you have no problems.

If you dropped it off yourself on the back of a trailer then you might have more problems but only if you never started the engine in front of the garage!

[Ozzie Osmond]

bosshog said:

"my local garage"

Main dealer?
BMW specialist?
All-makes muppet with a big spanner?

[PugwasHDJ80]

this is what a dieseling runaway engine looks like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno

[Jimmyarm]

Quite suprised the garage weren't prepared for it to happen tbh.

Every time I do a turbo on a diesel there are methods in place to shut the engine down 'manually' just in case.

My 2p is - garages fault, it's basic knowledge that (at the very least) the intercooler and all the pipework needs cleaning out when replacing a worn turbo. Secondly, even having done this there is a chance the engine will pick up oil from some crevice you can't get to and you need to be able to stop it just in case to prevent damage.

The fact that they removed the fuel pipe is very telling

However, just to play devils advocate, it is possible the new turbo oil seals had a defect and failed. Proving this after the fact is virtually impossible though if they let it run that long.

Edited by Jimmyarm on Tuesday 18th November 16:30

[shoehorn]

No-one has mentioned the reason that these turbos fail in the first place and it will continue to cause failure until it is replaced.
The crankcase breather/oil seperator in the cam cover,
These are supposed to be changed regularly(70K IIRC)no one ever seems to,they block causing crank gases to push oil back up the return from the turbo,blocking the fresh oil coming in which obviously ruins the turbo. And at the same time,as there is no crankcase gases pressure relief the oil gets pushed past the rings and turbo seals etc.and causes run on.
If you don`t change the breather/seperator you will be fitting a new turbo again soon anyway.

[Quinten]

SturdyHSV said:

I was unaware this was possible. How cool!

Feel very sorry for the OP, but I run two diesels (spit) and wow, I had no idea! Can this sort of thing happen at any time? Or only when a turbo has failed previously?

[TA14]

skyrover said:

It is ingesting it's own oil and burning that as fuel... it can't be stopped without choking off the air supply

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno

Wow, it's a brave man that would go in and choke off that air supply.

[Ayahuasca]

PositronicRay said:

skyrover said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno

I'm impressed

Poor Land Rover. But with a trailer on the back why not put it into top gear and drop the clutch?

[Phateuk]

PugwasHDJ80 said:

this is what a dieseling runaway engine looks like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno

What happens after that? Explosion?

[loose cannon]

pmjg66 said:

Any decent garage would know its not the manifold that needs draining.

The intercooler needs draining.

Correct ! And sometimes draining it out is not enough, a replacement item is sometimes the only sure fire way

[skyrover]

Ayahuasca said:

PositronicRay said:

skyrover said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno

I'm impressed

Poor Land Rover. But with a trailer on the back why not put it into top gear and drop the clutch?

Most people would have no idea what is going on.

Try convincing your average punter to go back to a diesel running away uncontrollably. It's a lot scarier in real life.

[Swanny87]

skyrover said:

bosshog said:

Yeah I don't really understand what has happened here. Is it basically, that because there is oil in the manifold this creates an immediate vacuum that makes the injectors think that its ok to open right up? Surely just hitting the stop button on the car would kill the injectors as they are computer/electronically controlled?

I suppose I will want to see if they do the work and lump the cost. :-/

Killing the injectors would not stop the runaway.

It is ingesting it's own oil and burning that as fuel... it can't be stopped without choking off the air supply

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno

Edited by skyrover on Tuesday 18th November 11:19

Owner puts it on Autotrader a week later. Potential buyer comes to look. "Has the car ever been smoked in?", "Errrrrmmmm".

[80sMatchbox]

SturdyHSV said:

I was unaware this was possible. How cool!

Garage's fault, let's hope they've got a spare engine lying around...

I like to think that I know a little bit about cars...but didn't know this either.

I hope it gets resolved.

[Sump]

shoehorn said:

No-one has mentioned the reason that these turbos fail in the first place and it will continue to cause failure until it is replaced.
The crankcase breather/oil seperator in the cam cover,
These are supposed to be changed regularly(70K IIRC)no one ever seems to,they block causing crank gases to push oil back up the return from the turbo,blocking the fresh oil coming in which obviously ruins the turbo. And at the same time,as there is no crankcase gases pressure relief the oil gets pushed past the rings and turbo seals etc.and causes run on.
If you don`t change the breather/seperator you will be fitting a new turbo again soon anyway.

New vortex design fixes this.

[996TT02]

bosshog said:

r11co said:

OOOh dear. A diesel engine ingesting its own oil is one of those things that are scary, fascinating, dangerous and runinous in equal measures.

A garage that thinks disconnecting the fuel line is a solution to the problem is not one I would not trust to work on my car. Blocking off the air intake and suffocating the engine is the only answer (or if you have a large CO2 fire extinguisher to hand, discharge it up the air intake).

If the engine was allowed to rev itself to a stop then it is shagged as it will have drained itself of most of its lubrication and burnt it as fuel. 'Bent valve' is an optimistic head-in-the-sand prognosis.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 18th November 11:28

So you think the engine will be completely b*ggered? bottom end, bearings, pistons, valves etc? Jez have they just written off the car?

The idea that the car would have consumed all it's oil, all 4 or 5 litres of it, is more than a bit far fetched.

Almost certainly the only damage is that related to over revving. Possibly and probably just a couple of bent valves as the garage is saying, once this happens the compression is gone and the reduction in revs due to running on less cylinders won't maintain the running on - after all oil in the inlet tract is not the ideal means of fuelling.

The valves bend because they extend further than the cam pushes them (momentum due to revs) commonly called bounce and hence they contact the piston. Yes the piston gets marked but plenty of cars get rebuilt with marked pistons and it's no big deal.

With a diesel the heavier duty components such as conrods plus the relatively lowish revs possible even when running on - the fuel is slower to burn than petrol - ensure that other forms of over rev damage are not common.

OP, just let the garage sort it out but make sure you don't pay for the extra work.

[imagineifyeswill]

The fact your engine now wont start doesnt sound good but I have seen diesels runaway on at least three occassions and stopped quickly they have survived without any damage.