The economics of new car sales

[JB!]

mikeyr said:

MJK 24 said:

Volkswagen seem to have been decimated in the USA. I was there in the summer. I saw dozens and dozens of Vento's and B4 Passat's in California. Ie early to mid 90's models. From their current range, I saw one Touareg. Why have they taken such a kicking over there?

No idea - I only heard because I watched a US review of the new Impreza and they mentioned how Subaru was booming over there. Maybe US doesn't have similar levels of emissions/MPG taxes?

Fuel is very cheap and they get the new Direct Injection 2.0T based on the BRZ/GT86 motor in the WRX over there? Wheras we only get the older 2.5, but I guess if you are only registering 1,000 units a year why bother importing something the customers might actually want...

Also I live in MK, population circa 250,000, a dealerships in the area:

Ford
Vauxhall
Volkswagen
Audi
BMW
Nissan
Mercedes-Benz
Peugeot
Toyota
Citroen
Hyundai (x2)
Kia
Skoda
Fiat
Renault
Land Rover
Honda
SEAT
MINI
Volvo
Mazda
Suzuki
Dacia
Jaguar
Mitsubishi - No dealer? one 10/15 mins outside MK. (Leighton Buzzard)
Lexus
Porsche - No dealer? one 10/15 mins outside MK. (Silverstone)
Alfa Romeo
smart
Jeep
Chevrolet - No Dealer
Subaru - No Dealer, According to Subaru UK nearest one is Daventry!!! a good 30/40 mins away?!
MG- No dealer
Chrysler
Abarth
Ssangyong - No Dealer
Bentley - No Dealer
Other Imports
Maserati - No Dealer
Aston Martin - Newport Works has a showroom
Other British
Infiniti - No Dealer

As a potential customer how am I supposed to test drive and see the new BRZ or the WRX (that they won't import) and talk money? Driving to daventry for warranty work and servicing? no thanks. GT86 or Golf R locally then.

[Grandfondo]

romeogolf said:

Grandfondo said:

Are the majority of people leasing/PCP'ing because it's cheaper or is it the fact it gets them into cars they could not afford to own?

Edited by Grandfondo on Friday 21st November 15:02

I PCP my car because I don't have £36k sitting around to buy it outright. If I saved the £300 a month that I pay out on it, it would take me 10 years to buy it. Which makes no sense to me. So, yeah, I have it on PCP, at an amount I can afford each month to drive the car I'd like to drive and for it to always be relatively new, reliable and comfortable. Simple.

Thank you for proving the point for me.

[Butter Face]

Grandfondo said:

romeogolf said:

Grandfondo said:

Are the majority of people leasing/PCP'ing because it's cheaper or is it the fact it gets them into cars they could not afford to own?

Edited by Grandfondo on Friday 21st November 15:02

I PCP my car because I don't have £36k sitting around to buy it outright. If I saved the £300 a month that I pay out on it, it would take me 10 years to buy it. Which makes no sense to me. So, yeah, I have it on PCP, at an amount I can afford each month to drive the car I'd like to drive and for it to always be relatively new, reliable and comfortable. Simple.

Thank you for proving the point for me.

Not really though.

I can't afford to buy a house (i.e I haven't got the £275k to buy it outright) yet I still live in the house, I still 'own' the house. Should I not have a house because I can't 'afford' it?

Should I buy a house I can 'afford' as TBH there isn't anything, at all, anywhere that I could 'afford'


If you made it a rule that people could only 'afford' what they can buy outright, the world would pretty much stop turning and saying any different is just ridiculous.

[nickfrog]

daemon said:

scenario8 said:

Repeatedly and consistently retaining over 70% over three years on a new or nearly new mainstream car is very impressive. I doubt that could be achieved on the vast majority of registrations (privately purchased).

Well done you!

Yes! Its a miracle!

As clearly explained and clarified this does not apply to new cars for which I am happy with say 60%.

Retaining 70% of the value of a 3-year old car after 3 years is piss easy. Miracles don't seem to happen repeatedly, by definition. I will post the figures anyway.

[Grandfondo]

Butter Face said:

Grandfondo said:

romeogolf said:

Grandfondo said:

Are the majority of people leasing/PCP'ing because it's cheaper or is it the fact it gets them into cars they could not afford to own?

Edited by Grandfondo on Friday 21st November 15:02

I PCP my car because I don't have £36k sitting around to buy it outright. If I saved the £300 a month that I pay out on it, it would take me 10 years to buy it. Which makes no sense to me. So, yeah, I have it on PCP, at an amount I can afford each month to drive the car I'd like to drive and for it to always be relatively new, reliable and comfortable. Simple.

Thank you for proving the point for me.

Not really though.

I can't afford to buy a house (i.e I haven't got the £275k to buy it outright) yet I still live in the house, I still 'own' the house. Should I not have a house because I can't 'afford' it?

Should I buy a house I can 'afford' as TBH there isn't anything, at all, anywhere that I could 'afford'


If you made it a rule that people could only 'afford' what they can buy outright, the world would pretty much stop turning and saying any different is just ridiculous.

This old chestnut!
Do you hold the title deeds to the house you "own" ?

BMW are doing deals just now for 320d/520d for circa £300/£350 but the sticker price is £30/£35k so do people really believe that because you can rent one for 36 months that you can actually afford to own one?

Edited by Grandfondo on Friday 21st November 16:58

[thelawnet]

daemon said:

You seem to see this as a problem?

Whats the issue? Your depreciation, warranty and moreoften your servicing wrapped up into a controlled monthly payment.

If thats worth £200 a month to someone or some family then whats the issue?

People generally get paid monthly, their mortgage is monthly, as are electric bills, phone bills, SKY bills, mobile phone bills, etc, etc, so why not the car?

And please dont quote the "cant afford it" or "fooling themselves" or "keep up with the jones" or "costing them a fortune" arguments. Try to be original.

I didn't say it was a problem, my point was that people signing up for monthly deals haven't got a clue what the total cost is. Like people who want a £50/month Ford Fiesta but then ignore the £2500 up-front payment. Whether it is a good deal for them is completely opaque.

Clearly conveniently packaged finance is a huge factor in getting all those brand new cars on the road, and without it we wouldn't have such a huge supply of cheap second-hand cars, but from an individual (rather than collective) perspective it's hard to account for.

[romeogolf]

Grandfondo said:

romeogolf said:

Grandfondo said:

Are the majority of people leasing/PCP'ing because it's cheaper or is it the fact it gets them into cars they could not afford to own?

Edited by Grandfondo on Friday 21st November 15:02

I PCP my car because I don't have £36k sitting around to buy it outright. If I saved the £300 a month that I pay out on it, it would take me 10 years to buy it. Which makes no sense to me. So, yeah, I have it on PCP, at an amount I can afford each month to drive the car I'd like to drive and for it to always be relatively new, reliable and comfortable. Simple.

Thank you for proving the point for me.

Not sure of your point to be honest. No, I cannot afford to buy a £36k car. I can afford to lease it. Congratulations.

[mikeyr]

JB! said:

As a potential customer how am I supposed to test drive and see the new BRZ or the WRX (that they won't import) and talk money? Driving to daventry for warranty work and servicing? no thanks. GT86 or Golf R locally then.

Same here I'm afraid - there are only about 65 Subaru dealers in the Uk.

[Terminator X]

Antony Moxey said:

daemon said:

£16,000 cash might seem a lot for some to put in to a Skoda Fabia, however a £200 a month monthly payment might be a lot more palatable.

Exactly. For my daughter's 21st we bought her a SEAT Mii. Our choice was £10k or £109 a month. It wasn't really a difficult decision.

Bit like the advert I heard today for the IPhone 6, "only" £23 p/m ^

TX.

^ No mention of how long for though

[KTF]

romeogolf said:

Not sure of your point to be honest. No, I cannot afford to buy a £36k car. I can afford to lease it. Congratulations.

If I had £36k lying around I wouldnt sink it in to a depreciating asset either. I would stick it somewhere to earn a bit of interest that would offset the interest on the monthly payment instead.

[Grandfondo]

Terminator X said:

Antony Moxey said:

daemon said:

£16,000 cash might seem a lot for some to put in to a Skoda Fabia, however a £200 a month monthly payment might be a lot more palatable.

Exactly. For my daughter's 21st we bought her a SEAT Mii. Our choice was £10k or £109 a month. It wasn't really a difficult decision.

Bit like the advert I heard today for the IPhone 6, "only" £23 p/m ^

TX.

^ No mention of how long for though

Foreeeeeeeeeeevvvvvveeeeeeeerrrrrrrr!

[wolves_wanderer]

romeogolf said:

Grandfondo said:

romeogolf said:

Grandfondo said:

Are the majority of people leasing/PCP'ing because it's cheaper or is it the fact it gets them into cars they could not afford to own?

Edited by Grandfondo on Friday 21st November 15:02

I PCP my car because I don't have £36k sitting around to buy it outright. If I saved the £300 a month that I pay out on it, it would take me 10 years to buy it. Which makes no sense to me. So, yeah, I have it on PCP, at an amount I can afford each month to drive the car I'd like to drive and for it to always be relatively new, reliable and comfortable. Simple.

Thank you for proving the point for me.

Not sure of your point to be honest. No, I cannot afford to buy a £36k car. I can afford to lease it. Congratulations.

His point is to try and feel like the bigger man than someone who finances a car I guess. Pretty pathetic really.

[liner33]

KTF said:

If I had £36k lying around I wouldnt sink it in to a depreciating asset either. I would stick it somewhere to earn a bit of interest that would offset the interest on the monthly payment instead.

You'd do well to get a return that would match the interest charges made on a credit agreement.

[Butter Face]

wolves_wanderer said:

romeogolf said:

Grandfondo said:

romeogolf said:

Grandfondo said:

Are the majority of people leasing/PCP'ing because it's cheaper or is it the fact it gets them into cars they could not afford to own?

Edited by Grandfondo on Friday 21st November 15:02

I PCP my car because I don't have £36k sitting around to buy it outright. If I saved the £300 a month that I pay out on it, it would take me 10 years to buy it. Which makes no sense to me. So, yeah, I have it on PCP, at an amount I can afford each month to drive the car I'd like to drive and for it to always be relatively new, reliable and comfortable. Simple.

Thank you for proving the point for me.

Not sure of your point to be honest. No, I cannot afford to buy a £36k car. I can afford to lease it. Congratulations.

His point is to try and feel like the bigger man than someone who finances a car I guess. Pretty pathetic really.

Nail on the head,

Grandfondo has a problem understanding affordability.

[KTF]

liner33 said:

You'd do well to get a return that would match the interest charges made on a credit agreement.

I am not saying it would match it exactly but something is better than nothing.

[Antony Moxey]

thelawnet said:

I didn't say it was a problem, my point was that people signing up for monthly deals haven't got a clue what the total cost is. Like people who want a £50/month Ford Fiesta but then ignore the £2500 up-front payment. Whether it is a good deal for them is completely opaque.

I'd have thought you know exactly what the total cost is: deposit, x number of monthly payments, final balloon?

[Grandfondo]

wolves_wanderer said:

romeogolf said:

Grandfondo said:

romeogolf said:

Grandfondo said:

Are the majority of people leasing/PCP'ing because it's cheaper or is it the fact it gets them into cars they could not afford to own?

Edited by Grandfondo on Friday 21st November 15:02

I PCP my car because I don't have £36k sitting around to buy it outright. If I saved the £300 a month that I pay out on it, it would take me 10 years to buy it. Which makes no sense to me. So, yeah, I have it on PCP, at an amount I can afford each month to drive the car I'd like to drive and for it to always be relatively new, reliable and comfortable. Simple.

Thank you for proving the point for me.

Not sure of your point to be honest. No, I cannot afford to buy a £36k car. I can afford to lease it. Congratulations.

His point is to try and feel like the bigger man than someone who finances a car I guess. Pretty pathetic really.

Not at all,but his honesty is a breath of fresh air which makes him a bigger man than most of the look rich quick renters on PH.

[thelawnet]

nickfrog said:

As clearly explained and clarified this does not apply to new cars for which I am happy with say 60%.

Retaining 70% of the value of a 3-year old car after 3 years is piss easy.

No it is not.

From my perspective:

Volvo S80 2.5T 53 plate bought £7k 2007, sold 2011 £2.3k dent in one panel
VW Eos 2.0T 07 plate bought £13k 2011, sold soon I guess I'll get £5k for it, the cream interior slightly worse for family usage

Slightly more than 3 years, but more like 30% retained than 70%. If you want to retain 70% of value you will need to:

And I just bought a LS460 07 plate for £13k, and I don't particularly fancy my chances of getting more than 70% of its value in ONE year, never mind three.

• buy carefully with a good knowledge of price, and probably privately - fancy buying a £10k used car from a private seller? Most people don't
• keep the car in showroom condition - not a reality for most family cars
• negotiate well, both when buying and selling the car
• choose your car model carefully

It's non-trivial, and it's about as relevant as someone telling you how much they made buying and selling used coins - a specialist hobby requiring specialist knowledge, not something that every man in the street is going to be able to do.

[xRIEx]

Grandfondo said:

This old chestnut!
Do you hold the title deeds to the house you "own" ?

Bad example - for one, you do own the property you mortgage. Secondly, physical deeds are no longer issued for registered properties.

[WreckedGecko]

knitware said:

Wacky Racer said:

Re: Vauxhall

I suspect many people slagging them off have never even driven one in the last five years....

I have, they are crap.

Edited by knitware on Friday 21st November 09:28

I have as well.

They are appalling. It was a Corsa to be fair, but it managed to straddle that difficult line between having no steering feel, whilst being really twitchy and somehow also wallowy and rock hard at the same time.

Hateful thing.