French cars.Hmmm...
Discussion
ORD said:
To be fair, someone has been quoting the AutoExpress survey! The results of that survey say more about driver expectations than anything else. Renault Zoe? Dacia? Not good cars, but they satisfy the limited wants and needs of their buyers.
Maybe it's like I said - a lot of very easily pleased drivers choose French cars.
By what metric are they 'not good cars'? Maybe it's like I said - a lot of very easily pleased drivers choose French cars.
So people who buy French cars are easily pleased, but he bottom scoring cars are an Audi, a Vauxhall and an Alfa. The bastions of quality and reliability there.
All those surveys are mostly b
ks. The Autoexpress one is one of the fairest as its answered by people who own the cars. If every ZOE sold was not a 'good car' it wouldn't score in the top 3, that's pretty simple to understand isn't it?You don't like French cars, fine, some people don't. I don't like Fords because they have too many buttons, they're not bad cars though.
Our daily driver is a Renault Kangoo that we've had for 10 years now which we bought second hand. The only problem we've had was a creaky steering pump that was replaced about 2 years ago and the usual wear and tear items like brakes, discs and cam belt, it's been regularly serviced at our local Renault dealer at very little expense. As others have said the seats are great and I always enjoy driving it with those huge expanses of glass it's got a very airy feeling inside. The poor thing's had a very hard life and looks a bit battered now due to idiots in the local supermarket car park where it's been bashed no fewer than 4 times, the latest dents we just haven't bothered to get repaired.
PS Our other much less used car is a Jaguar XF Portfolio S.
PS Our other much less used car is a Jaguar XF Portfolio S.
Butter Face said:
The warranty direct 'reliability index' is a load of crap. You're looking at a list that quotes the following as some of the most unreliable cars on the road, Nissan GTR, BMW M3, BMW M5, Audi Q7. Why? Because one of their main contributing factors is the cost of repair.
If you look into the details they are not just in the bottom list for expensive repairs.Edited by Rjbell on Sunday 1st May 08:18
Edited by Rjbell on Sunday 1st May 08:20
Rjbell said:
Butter Face said:
The warranty direct 'reliability index' is a load of crap. You're looking at a list that quotes the following as some of the most unreliable cars on the road, Nissan GTR, BMW M3, BMW M5, Audi Q7. Why? Because one of their main contributing factors is the cost of repair.
If you look into the details they are not just in the bottom list for expensive repairs.Edited by Rjbell on Sunday 1st May 08:18
Edited by Rjbell on Sunday 1st May 08:20
We used to deal with warranty direct, I've seen how their scoring works and shockingly, to some, the main bits they score cars on is how much it costs the warranty company. Crazy ain't it!
Rjbell said:
How else could you evaluate reliablty other than time off the road and average repair costs?
Would be nice to also know how many times it's been off the road.
It's a better indication than old rumours and reputations.
The problem comes when the information comes from the company who control the costs, and it's their own data.Would be nice to also know how many times it's been off the road.
It's a better indication than old rumours and reputations.
Edited by Rjbell on Sunday 1st May 08:48
Let's say for example they issue 1000 policies for Citroen C3's, 10 fail so it's a 1% failure rate.
They issue two policies for Bentley continentals, 1 fails, needs an ABS sensor which is £500+ fitting, failure rate is 50%.
Which is more reliable? The Citroen C3 or the Bentley?
Butter Face said:
By what metric are they 'not good cars'?
So people who buy French cars are easily pleased, but he bottom scoring cars are an Audi, a Vauxhall and an Alfa. The bastions of quality and reliability there.
All those surveys are mostly bks. The Autoexpress one is one of the fairest as its answered by people who own the cars. If every ZOE sold was not a 'good car' it wouldn't score in the top 3, that's pretty simple to understand isn't it?
You don't like French cars, fine, some people don't. I don't like Fords because they have too many buttons, they're not bad cars though.
Now to be fair, I think that these surveys do suffer from owner perceptions and "Likes" as much as "Dislikes". A guy at work was a Citroen Fanatic (he had restored 2CVs and all sorts and had a C5 as a daily driver). He would tell us over and over how the reliability problems were false. Seemingly forgetting the number of times he'd been out in the car park fixing stuff (such as the repeated days when his window had fallen down). Or the days he'd turned up in his 2CV because the C5 wouldn't start. So people who buy French cars are easily pleased, but he bottom scoring cars are an Audi, a Vauxhall and an Alfa. The bastions of quality and reliability there.
All those surveys are mostly b
ks. The Autoexpress one is one of the fairest as its answered by people who own the cars. If every ZOE sold was not a 'good car' it wouldn't score in the top 3, that's pretty simple to understand isn't it?You don't like French cars, fine, some people don't. I don't like Fords because they have too many buttons, they're not bad cars though.
So if you based your survey on him, you would have an owner-generated result of "totally reliable" versus a reality of "oh dear".
Ditto for a guy I know with a Zoe. It's stranded him more times than I can count, but he always has an excuse for it ("Ah yes, see, these charging points are totally unreliable, it's not the car's fault [as someone else plugs a Nissan (irony!) in and starts charging on the point his Zoe had been rejecting]").
Not just French cars that have the allure though, I equally have friends who bang on about their "ultra reliable Munich metal". The same guys who in one case had to have an entire replacement engine.
Or the mate who has only driven Mercedes for the last decade. His last Mercedes, I never actually found out what model he had bought since he turned up each week in a different car - whatever the garage had available as a courtesy model when the seemingly inevitable failure had occurred that week. And this was a guy who used to pay the Merc dealer to change his windscreen wipers, so can't blame anything but the car!
I think a lot of people are completely unfair and prejudiced against anything that isn't German. French cars seem to get a lot of stick but it's amazing how many people I speak to who have a lot of time for the Frenchies.
Talking to a friend a couple of weeks ago who had driven Renault's for many years without any major issues but had moved on to 'premium' brands now he has a better job. His latest 6 month old Mercedes has been on the back of a recovery vehicle 4 separate times so far, off the road for roughly 3 months with various (mainly electrical) problems and he has got to the point where he
feels he wants to reject the vehicle.
Another friend had an Audi A4 which at 3 years and 1 month old and 38,000 miles had a scrap engine. Just out of warranty unfortunately sir was the answer from Audi. Don't know the details but he said his 25 year old Lotus was 100 times more reliable than the Audi.
Personally, I love Renault's. Some great cars over the years and I've driven a Safrane for over 12 years now with no major issues. Absolutely great car, did 1000 miles last week in the old girl and it didn't miss a beat. It has been way better than the Jaguar and Volvo also in the family. I also regularly use an MG ZTT. Not a bad car in itself but blighted by a dreadfully unreliable 2.0 diesel engine made by BMW. The gearbox also failed on that car.
Pro's and con's with all cars but anyone who thinks the Germans make the most reliable cars these days is very out of touch.
Talking to a friend a couple of weeks ago who had driven Renault's for many years without any major issues but had moved on to 'premium' brands now he has a better job. His latest 6 month old Mercedes has been on the back of a recovery vehicle 4 separate times so far, off the road for roughly 3 months with various (mainly electrical) problems and he has got to the point where he
feels he wants to reject the vehicle.
Another friend had an Audi A4 which at 3 years and 1 month old and 38,000 miles had a scrap engine. Just out of warranty unfortunately sir was the answer from Audi. Don't know the details but he said his 25 year old Lotus was 100 times more reliable than the Audi.
Personally, I love Renault's. Some great cars over the years and I've driven a Safrane for over 12 years now with no major issues. Absolutely great car, did 1000 miles last week in the old girl and it didn't miss a beat. It has been way better than the Jaguar and Volvo also in the family. I also regularly use an MG ZTT. Not a bad car in itself but blighted by a dreadfully unreliable 2.0 diesel engine made by BMW. The gearbox also failed on that car.
Pro's and con's with all cars but anyone who thinks the Germans make the most reliable cars these days is very out of touch.
Flooble said:
Butter Face said:
So the point is that surveys and reports are all bks and no different to Bob down the pub who's Great auntie flo had a Peugeot in 1978 that broke down a few times and as such he says all French cars are crap.
I'm actually pretty happy with that resolution.
ks and no different to Bob down the pub who's Great auntie flo had a Peugeot in 1978 that broke down a few times and as such he says all French cars are crap.I'm actually pretty happy with that resolution.
Anyway, this thread isn't about lists or Bob down the pub, it's about how many French cars I see on the hard shoulder and the answer, after all this time, is quite a lot. Most are 4 to 5 years old plus and I simply posted to ask why that is. VW's may be much, much worse, but I rarely see them.
Rammy76 said:
When I bought my first Ford Focus I was ridiculed at work by an older colleague who said he would never buy another Ford after his Mk2 Escort rusted badly 
The most unreliable, costly to maintain and rusty POS car I've ever had was German.
Unlike a Focus or an Escort, which are - umm - German.The most unreliable, costly to maintain and rusty POS car I've ever had was German.
Actually, it does raise an interesting question. How DO you define "nationality"?
Is it where the badge's parent is based? So is Ford American or German? Is it where it was actually assembled? Is a Yaris, built in Valenciennes, French or Japanese? My Cit ZX was built in Vigo, so is it Spanish or French? What about a Seat or a Martorell-built Audi Q3 or a Portuguese-built Ford Galaxy with a VW VR6? Is an Aygo Czech, Japanese, French or a mixture? Would a C1 be different? How about a Bentley with a Slovakian-assembled body on a German-developed platform? Does it make a difference if it's a V8 (German-built) or a W12 (UK now the "centre of excellence", but shared with Audi)?
I've said this in the past on similar threads. Over the years I've owned 4 French cars. 2 Citroens and 2 Renaults. I found the Renaults to be more reliable than the Citroens. The Renaults (a Clio, replaced by a Laguna) never put a foot wrong. The Clio was faultless over 4 years. The Laguna had a minor starting fault, fixed by the AA in 20minutes, and 2 dodgy electric windows. Again that was the only issues over 4 years.
The Citroens had varying faults. My first, a ZX had an electrical fault to the starter motor (easily fixed), and intermittent faults with the dashboard lights. Not too bad for an older car over 3 years.
The Xsara was a nightmare. Test drove it twice, there didn't appear to be any issues. First day I had it, it kept cutting out when braking. Garage blamed the engine management system, and unsuccessfully tried to fix it on 6 other occasions. I ended up getting rid of it.
So out of the 4 French cars I've owned, only one was a real disaster. But it was enough to put me off going near Citroen again.
I always found that used French cars were more keenly priced than their rivals, and that was an attraction to these cars. The majority of the time it paid off.
The Citroens had varying faults. My first, a ZX had an electrical fault to the starter motor (easily fixed), and intermittent faults with the dashboard lights. Not too bad for an older car over 3 years.
The Xsara was a nightmare. Test drove it twice, there didn't appear to be any issues. First day I had it, it kept cutting out when braking. Garage blamed the engine management system, and unsuccessfully tried to fix it on 6 other occasions. I ended up getting rid of it.
So out of the 4 French cars I've owned, only one was a real disaster. But it was enough to put me off going near Citroen again.
I always found that used French cars were more keenly priced than their rivals, and that was an attraction to these cars. The majority of the time it paid off.
Butter Face said:
The problem comes when the information comes from the company who control the costs, and it's their own data.
Let's say for example they issue 1000 policies for Citroen C3's, 10 fail so it's a 1% failure rate.
They issue two policies for Bentley continentals, 1 fails, needs an ABS sensor which is £500+ fitting, failure rate is 50%.
Which is more reliable? The Citroen C3 or the Bentley?
I do see your point but this is just how statistics work. I wonder what sort of numbers we need for the Bentley to be deemed useful? And how many Bentley warrantys do they actually hold?we do not have any of this information. However this doesn't apply to a Clio or polo or fiesta and we do not have much else out there as a guide.Let's say for example they issue 1000 policies for Citroen C3's, 10 fail so it's a 1% failure rate.
They issue two policies for Bentley continentals, 1 fails, needs an ABS sensor which is £500+ fitting, failure rate is 50%.
Which is more reliable? The Citroen C3 or the Bentley?
I agree the auto trader customer survey doesn't hold much weight for me either.
I'm not at the stage where I would buy a French car either though.
Interestingly fleet news do a survey of over 50 contract hire companies with over 600k cars on there books and they concure German cars are more reliable. However are the stats off for the same reason as the Bentley? Contact hire is dominated by German cars due to the great residuals.
It's safe to say if you're the type a guy who changes your car every 3 years buy a German car and not a French one.
Edited by Rjbell on Sunday 1st May 10:28
I've said it before but my family used to have a chains of Citroen dealerships, and the major issue is inconsistency in manufacturing process, layered on top of cheap components. 8 cars out of 10 might be largely fine, but if you get one of the other 2 then you're in and out of the garage constantly. People have wildly differing experiences so "I've had no problem with mine thus proving French cars bad reputation to be unfounded" is just wrong.
ch108 said:
The Xsara was a nightmare. Test drove it twice, there didn't appear to be any issues. First day I had it, it kept cutting out when braking. Garage blamed the engine management system, and unsuccessfully tried to fix it on 6 other occasions. I ended up getting rid of it.
Was it a pre-facelift Xsara (basically a ZX/306 in other panels) or a facelifted one (with multiplexed electronics)? Which engine (the Xsaras got the first HDis, much more complicated than the XUD)?TooMany2cvs said:
ch108 said:
The Xsara was a nightmare. Test drove it twice, there didn't appear to be any issues. First day I had it, it kept cutting out when braking. Garage blamed the engine management system, and unsuccessfully tried to fix it on 6 other occasions. I ended up getting rid of it.
Was it a pre-facelift Xsara (basically a ZX/306 in other panels) or a facelifted one (with multiplexed electronics)? Which engine (the Xsaras got the first HDis, much more complicated than the XUD)?Rjbell said:
It's safe to say if you're the type a guy who changes your car every 3 years buy a German car and not a French one.
Are they German cars made in Germany, German cars made in Slovakia, German cars made in Russia, German cars made in Belgium, German cars made in the UK or German cars made in SpainIs Vauxhall British, American (GM) or German (Opel)? Some are made in Germany
I've asked the question before, and someone else asked in here earlier,
What makes a car a "[insert nationality] car"
Is it where the parts are from?
Where it's designed?
Where it's assembled?
Where the engine is from?
Or where the brand has it's offices registered?
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