Winter tyres, to bother or not ?
Discussion
Rob makes a good summary above.
This type of thread always seems to bring out a few people saying "waste of money" or "drive to the conditions", but I've never yet seen someone who's actually used winter tyres in bad weather say these things. They really are impressive in cold, wet conditions and can be quite unbelievable on snow. The effect is emphasised on most modern cars where you would use a narrower tyre for winters, helping the car produce more pressure to cut through crappy surfaces to reach the road beneath.
I used a set of Uniroyal MS+66s on my 1996 A4 a couple of years back and they were excellent. I had a spare set of wheels so it was no trouble. There were a number of trips I would not have been able to make on summers, but it depends on your situation. I haven't yet bought a set for my E46 and won't this year because I don't desperately need it to get around, but those saying winters are pointless because they don't make a difference - rather than because your situation means they're not totally necessary - are a bit barking.
This type of thread always seems to bring out a few people saying "waste of money" or "drive to the conditions", but I've never yet seen someone who's actually used winter tyres in bad weather say these things. They really are impressive in cold, wet conditions and can be quite unbelievable on snow. The effect is emphasised on most modern cars where you would use a narrower tyre for winters, helping the car produce more pressure to cut through crappy surfaces to reach the road beneath.
I used a set of Uniroyal MS+66s on my 1996 A4 a couple of years back and they were excellent. I had a spare set of wheels so it was no trouble. There were a number of trips I would not have been able to make on summers, but it depends on your situation. I haven't yet bought a set for my E46 and won't this year because I don't desperately need it to get around, but those saying winters are pointless because they don't make a difference - rather than because your situation means they're not totally necessary - are a bit barking.
Hi Nigel I'm in Malvern and commute the local rural roads in a Panda Trekking with Continental Mud and snows all year as standard fitting. They are only about £60 each and are now 20000 miles old and still got 80% tread left. They are superb in the wet and down mud covered roads and I can't recommend them highly enough.
You are welcome to come and see for yourself.
Mike
You are welcome to come and see for yourself.
Mike
kambites said:
xRIEx said:
kambites said:
I don't really know (it's quite hard to measure) but I doubt the roads average below 7 degrees here in Southampton for more than a couple of months in an average year.
I need to move south.
McSam said:
They really are impressive in cold, wet conditions and can be quite unbelievable on snow.
To be fair, really good summer tyres are also enormously impressive in cold, wet conditions. Yes winters are better but not in quite the way which is often made out on here - from reading some people's posts, you'd think summer tyres suddenly lose all grip at 7 degrees Celsius. On snow or ice there is obviously no contest.
I have a VW Caddy as my company van. Recently (a few months back) I had to have the tyres replaced and company policy had changed to state that we must have winter tyres fitted all year round. I have gone from zero grip on (Michelin) summer tyres to slightly more than zero with (Michelin) winters and no noticeable difference in handling- & I drive it like I stole it, 'cos it's not mine. I have winters all year round on my own car too- but not Michelin as I think they're crap and always have.
It all depends on what you drive, of course. If you have a sports car you might want to consider having two sets, but on a van/standard car I run winters all year round with no problems.
It all depends on what you drive, of course. If you have a sports car you might want to consider having two sets, but on a van/standard car I run winters all year round with no problems.
GeeBeeR3 said:
I have a VW Caddy as my company van. Recently (a few months back) I had to have the tyres replaced and company policy had changed to state that we must have winter tyres fitted all year round. I have gone from zero grip on (Michelin) summer tyres to slightly more than zero with (Michelin) winters and no noticeable difference in handling- & I drive it like I stole it, 'cos it's not mine. I have winters all year round on my own car too- but not Michelin as I think they're crap and always have.
It all depends on what you drive, of course. If you have a sports car you might want to consider having two sets, but on a van/standard car I run winters all year round with no problems.
This is my view now as well. All seasons (or some of the modern winters even) may not have the 100% of a summer tyre but to be honest, on a family car, work van etc, the drop in grip isn't going to be noticeable. It all depends on what you drive, of course. If you have a sports car you might want to consider having two sets, but on a van/standard car I run winters all year round with no problems.
It does strike me as odd that some people in the south of England wouldn't dream of running summer tyres in the winter (even if there's no snow) but are happy running winters in the summer. The difference in grip levels of comparably priced summer and winter tyres is generally greater at 25 degrees Celsius than at 0 degrees Celsius, even on wet roads.
St John Smythe said:
lbc said:
gazza285 said:
I've managed 25 years of driving without winter tyres on and I'm not about to change.
I leave winter tyres on all year for same reason.When was the last time we had a real heatwave? 1976?
I hate driving on winter tyres - I change for safety reasons, but can't wait to get the summer tyres back on once winter is over. I should say in balance to that though that the effect for me is magnified because my summer tyres are runflats and the winters aren't, so the ride goes all bouncy too. Nevertheless, the increased noise on the motorway is very noticeable.kambites said:
McSam said:
They really are impressive in cold, wet conditions and can be quite unbelievable on snow.
To be fair, really good summer tyres are also enormously impressive in cold, wet conditions. Yes winters are better but not in quite the way which is often made out on here - from reading some people's posts, you'd think summer tyres suddenly lose all grip at 7 degrees Celsius. On snow or ice there is obviously no contest.
but what I meant is extreme wet, the sort of thing where most summer tyres really start to struggle to disperse water fast enough. A far softer compound seemed a bit helpful when it was very cold too, even in the dry, but this could have been a combination of tyre construction factors.They weren't good for a hell of a lot when it got warm, though. I gave them a try with a full ABS stop on a sunny 20°C day and "squirmy" is the best word I can use to describe them. Still better than plenty of Linglongloveyoulongtime ditchfinders, but not in their design range.
kambites said:
It does strike me as odd that some people in the south of England wouldn't dream of running summer tyres in the winter (even if there's no snow) but are happy running winters in the summer. The difference in grip levels of comparably priced summer and winter tyres is generally greater at 25 degrees Celsius than at 0 degrees Celsius, even on wet roads.
how many spin off the road or slide into the car in frnt at the lights because their winter tyres lost grip in the summer?how many can't get up their driveway in August because their winter tyres can't get traction
It's fascinating that whenever this topic comes up people seem to assume that everywhere in the UK has the same climate. "No frost yet" indeed. OP- only you can judge if you need them. I've had them some years and probably would have been fine without them, and I haven't bothered other years and wished I had.
Hugo a Gogo said:
how many spin off the road or slide into the car in frnt at the lights because their winter tyres lost grip in the summer?
Don't be deliberately obtuse. The very same question could be asked about people using plastic Chinese s
t versus proper-quality tyres, and yet every thread on the subject provides fairly conclusive arguments that you're a damn sight better off buying the best tyres you can.If you live somewhere that sees harsh winters, yes, using winter tyres all year round is likely to see you involved in fewer accidents than exclusively using summers. But it's not reasonable to say that using winters in conditions for which they weren't designed is "just as safe" as using the correct tyres. Yes, they'll work, but they will not work as well as something designed for the conditions.
Just the same as a Chinese ditchfinder will not work as well as a Pilot Sport.
I run winter tyres here, after a couple of years using them i wouldn't go back.
I don't get the logic of those that say they'd happily run summers in the winter but not winters in the summer... to me you're choosing the best tyre for whatever conditions you're presented with. If that means the winters don't go on until December then that's fine. Generally a winter tyre is just as poorly suited to summer conditions as a summer tyre is to winter conditions.
To me they are cost neutral. Winter tyres are cheaper than summer tyres and last just as a long in my experience running them, and by running winters in the winter im prolonging the life of the summers for use in the summer. The cost of the extra alloys/steel wheels are covered by the cheaper tyres. The result being you get to run the best suited wheel/tyre combination for the conditions for no extra £.
As far as i'm concerned winter wheels and tyres in winter are far far safer than summers and can mean the difference between being able to go out or not, or worse being stuck in a ditch somewhere or not.
Admittedly when i started using winters i lived in Cumbria, whereas now i live in the SE and they're pretty much hit-or-miss depending on the winter, but when the temperature drops i'd still prefer to be on winters than summers.
I used to have a little 1.2 16v Renault Clio Billabong and lived on the side of a hill up north that had a small lane with tight corners and a steep driveway to get up.
One year i got completely beached at home when it snowed, entirely unable to get out in the clio, and had to leave the clio stranded and walk back up the hill to the house as i couldn't even reach the main road. I jumped into the Audi with its quattro, lockable rear-diff and 225/40/18 summer tyres and made it down to the bottom of the hill and to work well enough. On my return journey i just made it back up the lane to the house, but i couldn't get it back up the driveway and it took me several attempts to get up there at that carrying varying amounts of speed to try and slide around the tight corners where otherwise you'd bog down and wouldn't be able to pick up speed again.
I then put winter tyres on the clio, Nokian WR G2's with smaller alloys with narrower tyres - so a perfect example for your 4WD Audi with low-profile summers vs small light french hatch with narrow winter tyres.
The Clio was absolutely unstoppable. It pissed all over the Audi in every situation during the winter. It was able to traverse up and down the lane and the driveway like it was summer where the Clio had before been unable to travel and even the Audi had struggled. It was night and day and provided complete confidence driving in the conditions.
You could drive the clio in a few inches of snow without any concern whatsoever. You'd frequently come up against people battling on at 10mph struggling to reach their destination and when safe to do so happily just pull out to overtake and continue on your journey. It reminded me of when you encounter someone doing 50mph on the motorway and wonder WTF they are doing.
During the subsequent winters i remember my mate coming back with his Subaru Impreza having struggled to get home in the conditions whilst saying it was far to bad to go out in, as myself and the missus jumped into the clio to head to the Cinema in complete safety, our plans unaltered given the conditions.
In a more extreme example i was travelling on freshly fallen snow and came across a LandRover Discovery that had travelled straight on at a corner. The guy thought i was crazy when i suggested the clio give him a hand out, as a had a towrope with me, but the look on his face when it provided enough grip to help him back out and onto the road was priceless. He said he'd be getting winter tyres pronto!
I used to take the clio up and over some of the local hills after heavy snowfall to demonstrate. Normally they would have been completely unnavigable in anything with summers on, 4WD or not. In the Clio with winters they were tremendous fun
I don't get the logic of those that say they'd happily run summers in the winter but not winters in the summer... to me you're choosing the best tyre for whatever conditions you're presented with. If that means the winters don't go on until December then that's fine. Generally a winter tyre is just as poorly suited to summer conditions as a summer tyre is to winter conditions.
To me they are cost neutral. Winter tyres are cheaper than summer tyres and last just as a long in my experience running them, and by running winters in the winter im prolonging the life of the summers for use in the summer. The cost of the extra alloys/steel wheels are covered by the cheaper tyres. The result being you get to run the best suited wheel/tyre combination for the conditions for no extra £.
As far as i'm concerned winter wheels and tyres in winter are far far safer than summers and can mean the difference between being able to go out or not, or worse being stuck in a ditch somewhere or not.
Admittedly when i started using winters i lived in Cumbria, whereas now i live in the SE and they're pretty much hit-or-miss depending on the winter, but when the temperature drops i'd still prefer to be on winters than summers.
Vanin said:
Has there ever been a serious test of winter tyres on a 2 wheel drive versus a low profile set on a four wheel drive road car such as a Subaru or an Audi saloon?
Having to faff about changing wheels and tyres to suit a couple of weeks of possible bad weather is too much trouble for me.
I have a couple of real world examples -Having to faff about changing wheels and tyres to suit a couple of weeks of possible bad weather is too much trouble for me.
I used to have a little 1.2 16v Renault Clio Billabong and lived on the side of a hill up north that had a small lane with tight corners and a steep driveway to get up.
One year i got completely beached at home when it snowed, entirely unable to get out in the clio, and had to leave the clio stranded and walk back up the hill to the house as i couldn't even reach the main road. I jumped into the Audi with its quattro, lockable rear-diff and 225/40/18 summer tyres and made it down to the bottom of the hill and to work well enough. On my return journey i just made it back up the lane to the house, but i couldn't get it back up the driveway and it took me several attempts to get up there at that carrying varying amounts of speed to try and slide around the tight corners where otherwise you'd bog down and wouldn't be able to pick up speed again.
I then put winter tyres on the clio, Nokian WR G2's with smaller alloys with narrower tyres - so a perfect example for your 4WD Audi with low-profile summers vs small light french hatch with narrow winter tyres.
The Clio was absolutely unstoppable. It pissed all over the Audi in every situation during the winter. It was able to traverse up and down the lane and the driveway like it was summer where the Clio had before been unable to travel and even the Audi had struggled. It was night and day and provided complete confidence driving in the conditions.
You could drive the clio in a few inches of snow without any concern whatsoever. You'd frequently come up against people battling on at 10mph struggling to reach their destination and when safe to do so happily just pull out to overtake and continue on your journey. It reminded me of when you encounter someone doing 50mph on the motorway and wonder WTF they are doing.
During the subsequent winters i remember my mate coming back with his Subaru Impreza having struggled to get home in the conditions whilst saying it was far to bad to go out in, as myself and the missus jumped into the clio to head to the Cinema in complete safety, our plans unaltered given the conditions.
In a more extreme example i was travelling on freshly fallen snow and came across a LandRover Discovery that had travelled straight on at a corner. The guy thought i was crazy when i suggested the clio give him a hand out, as a had a towrope with me, but the look on his face when it provided enough grip to help him back out and onto the road was priceless. He said he'd be getting winter tyres pronto!
I used to take the clio up and over some of the local hills after heavy snowfall to demonstrate. Normally they would have been completely unnavigable in anything with summers on, 4WD or not. In the Clio with winters they were tremendous fun
McSam said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
how many spin off the road or slide into the car in frnt at the lights because their winter tyres lost grip in the summer?
Don't be deliberately obtuse. The very same question could be asked about people using plastic Chinese st versus proper-quality tyres, and yet every thread on the subject provides fairly conclusive arguments that you're a damn sight better off buying the best tyres you can.If you live somewhere that sees harsh winters, yes, using winter tyres all year round is likely to see you involved in fewer accidents than exclusively using summers. But it's not reasonable to say that using winters in conditions for which they weren't designed is "just as safe" as using the correct tyres. Yes, they'll work, but they will not work as well as something designed for the conditions.
Just the same as a Chinese ditchfinder will not work as well as a Pilot Sport.
even in the summer, anyone driving 'normally' will never come anywhere near the limits of their tyres, unless they are the cheapest of cheap chinese rubbish
in winter conditions, everyone will be very easily be near, or past, the limits of their tyres
example, a test I read, in warm dry conditions from 60 mph, had 120 ft stopping distance for unnamed summer tyres, 155 for winters with 131 ft for unnamed all-season
in the snow from 40, that was 156 ft for winters, 184 ft for all-seasons to 351 ft for summers
they couldn't do a 60-0 test because the summers couldn't accelerate up to 60 on that surface
the difference in losing 11 ft of stopping distance in an emergency stop in summer, compared to 170 ft in winter (from a much slower speed) is what I'm talking about
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/tire-t...
I live in Canada so can claim some familiarity with the subject. Have driven on all kinds of tires.
If you see a lot of snow, or your temperature is fairly consistently below about 7c, then winter tires are a boon, as they are different compound and the tires blocks are designed for the cold. Its not just about tread. In snow belts areas here like Quebec it is legally required. With the increasingly snowy winter in the UK it is worth thinking about.
Generally you keep them mounted on a separate set of rims, and if you have expensive wheels in the summer, a simpler set of winter rimes will suffice. Of course the costs is not all incremental asa you save your summer tires.
At this time of the year, (Early winter has the worst driving) I see clowns in 4x4s in the ditch all the time. As set of all seasons is completely inadequate and performance tires are laughably bad. I drive a GT3RS in the summer and it would not go 20 feet in deep cold. In the winter I has a well used, trusty Cayenne S with Bridgestone Blizzaks in cheaper rims. Easy way to see the difference us to use my normal tires on a snowy patch ( empty of course) and jam on. ABS juddering, sliding slowly to a halt. Blizzaks, no comparison. This is no subtle difference.
I do long trips often in the snow, ands have driven through may storms, and swear by snow tires.
Here is UK article that may be relevant:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Community/Car-Magazin...
IF all you have is a couple of little snowstorms, then probably not necessary. As always, winter driving is about allowing a lot of space around you if possible.
Last year I was in a bad storm on a major highway here, my son in the car. I was a on a broad curve, taking it easy, and I saw a minivan coming up in the fast lane. I wait o my son..."He's going to crash".
Sure enough, he got around the curve, and as he straightened, he slid, hit the median and spun in front of me right down my lane, I had time to brake gently on the snows, cam to a halt, and saw there was another one behind me. in the fast lane Pulled around the overturned car in the slow lane , ( as I had traction), and as I got around the second car came around the curve, braked , spun, shot in front of me and launched itself into a deep snow filled ditch. I called it in of course, but could see there would be a pileup and stoping would make it even more dangerous, so continued to pick my way through the storm. There was in fact a pileup.
All-seaons are not winter tires i the circumstances I noted at the beginning of the post.
If you see a lot of snow, or your temperature is fairly consistently below about 7c, then winter tires are a boon, as they are different compound and the tires blocks are designed for the cold. Its not just about tread. In snow belts areas here like Quebec it is legally required. With the increasingly snowy winter in the UK it is worth thinking about.
Generally you keep them mounted on a separate set of rims, and if you have expensive wheels in the summer, a simpler set of winter rimes will suffice. Of course the costs is not all incremental asa you save your summer tires.
At this time of the year, (Early winter has the worst driving) I see clowns in 4x4s in the ditch all the time. As set of all seasons is completely inadequate and performance tires are laughably bad. I drive a GT3RS in the summer and it would not go 20 feet in deep cold. In the winter I has a well used, trusty Cayenne S with Bridgestone Blizzaks in cheaper rims. Easy way to see the difference us to use my normal tires on a snowy patch ( empty of course) and jam on. ABS juddering, sliding slowly to a halt. Blizzaks, no comparison. This is no subtle difference.
I do long trips often in the snow, ands have driven through may storms, and swear by snow tires.
Here is UK article that may be relevant:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Community/Car-Magazin...
IF all you have is a couple of little snowstorms, then probably not necessary. As always, winter driving is about allowing a lot of space around you if possible.
Last year I was in a bad storm on a major highway here, my son in the car. I was a on a broad curve, taking it easy, and I saw a minivan coming up in the fast lane. I wait o my son..."He's going to crash".
Sure enough, he got around the curve, and as he straightened, he slid, hit the median and spun in front of me right down my lane, I had time to brake gently on the snows, cam to a halt, and saw there was another one behind me. in the fast lane Pulled around the overturned car in the slow lane , ( as I had traction), and as I got around the second car came around the curve, braked , spun, shot in front of me and launched itself into a deep snow filled ditch. I called it in of course, but could see there would be a pileup and stoping would make it even more dangerous, so continued to pick my way through the storm. There was in fact a pileup.
All-seaons are not winter tires i the circumstances I noted at the beginning of the post.
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