Utilising the power on a VERY powerful car...
Discussion
skyrover said:
A powerful car makes town driving/low speeds effortless and far more relaxing
er, what? We are not in 1982 any longer. All cars, no matter how pathetic their engine are absolutely fine in town! I mean, what's the lowest power car you can actually get these days? (Or more accurately, for just pootling about, the lowest torque producing one) I learnt to drive in a 2CV. 32 horses, maybe 40Nm and 4 speeds. These days, the average 1.2L Clio or Fiesta is like a rocket ship in comparison ;-)
Max_Torque said:
skyrover said:
A powerful car makes town driving/low speeds effortless and far more relaxing
er, what? We are not in 1982 any longer. All cars, no matter how pathetic their engine are absolutely fine in town! I mean, what's the lowest power car you can actually get these days? (Or more accurately, for just pootling about, the lowest torque producing one) I learnt to drive in a 2CV. 32 horses, maybe 40Nm and 4 speeds. These days, the average 1.2L Clio or Fiesta is like a rocket ship in comparison ;-)
I've got used to it now and love it.
E65Ross said:
Yesterday I, again (admittedly for the first time in a while!) drove a new shape BMW M6 and having driven it, it got me wondering whether you can really use the power of anything much faster. It was devastatingly fast and you really, really need to think quite far ahead before you can say "yes, I can now put my foot down" and before you know it, you're at rather silly speeds.
This got me wondering....what on earth something like a full-on hypercar/supercar is like....I mean, it must be absolutely mental. How many of you have cars getting on for that kind of performance and can use it?
Having said all of that, I spent a lot of time driving an E92 M3 before and thought "bloody hell this is quick" but the M6 changed my perspectives on that a little, as it feels noticeably faster. Even on the motorway in 6th or 7th gear is still just PULLS like a train. God knows what something like a McLaren P1 is like on the public road!!
I suppose you get used to it, mind.
My 745i feels absolutely glacial in comparison now
I had the new shape M6 V8 cabrio for just 8 months before I sold it. The problem was not using all the power it had, the problem was using the power in a way that felt exciting. Driving it regularly there was no pleasure, I often used the power for overtaking or boosting up to speed on the motorway, but it wasn't particularly thrilling, so the problem with the car wasn't that it had too much power to use, it was that it was never particularly exciting despite all the power it had.This got me wondering....what on earth something like a full-on hypercar/supercar is like....I mean, it must be absolutely mental. How many of you have cars getting on for that kind of performance and can use it?
Having said all of that, I spent a lot of time driving an E92 M3 before and thought "bloody hell this is quick" but the M6 changed my perspectives on that a little, as it feels noticeably faster. Even on the motorway in 6th or 7th gear is still just PULLS like a train. God knows what something like a McLaren P1 is like on the public road!!
I suppose you get used to it, mind.My 745i feels absolutely glacial in comparison now
I have since got a F430 spider (60bhp less although much lighter) and have tested out a 458 spider on track as well, now those cars I really felt you could use the power in an exciting way. You certainly won't be using all the performance (performance and power are two very different things!), but you can use the power to enjoy the car, which in the M6 I never could because I just found it dull.
Max_Torque said:
I learnt to drive in a 2CV. 32 horses, maybe 40Nm and 4 speeds. These days, the average 1.2L Clio or Fiesta is like a rocket ship in comparison ;-)
You can't compare a 1.2 clio to a 400+hp firebreathing V8, even when just bumbling around town, especially if it's automatic.Max_Torque said:
skyrover said:
A powerful car makes town driving/low speeds effortless and far more relaxing
er, what? We are not in 1982 any longer. All cars, no matter how pathetic their engine are absolutely fine in town! I mean, what's the lowest power car you can actually get these days? (Or more accurately, for just pootling about, the lowest torque producing one) I learnt to drive in a 2CV. 32 horses, maybe 40Nm and 4 speeds. These days, the average 1.2L Clio or Fiesta is like a rocket ship in comparison ;-)
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Who looks back on their life and says: "I wish I owned less powerful cars, I wish I had less sex, I wish I partied less, I wish I had a smaller house, I wish I had less money" ?
No one does.
So you've got a Veyron, which according to PH wisdom, can't be enjoyed to the full on public roads because it smashes some de facto p/w ratio. So what? I've got a 1000 watt RMS domestic AV system, which I can't use to the full. Does that mean I should sell it and by a 10 watt stereo because I can play it louder more often?
The whole point of huge power reserves is effortless performance. You can hear and feel the difference between something made to do a specific job and no more, and something made to do a job and THEN SOME. It's the quality of the experience. 1000lbft of thrust from the Veyron I would wager is more satisfying than wringing a VTEC's neck for it's 145lbft of modest, thrashy thrust.
You can get around Venice in a dingy with a 10hp outboard, or you can get around Venice in in a Riva Aquarama. I bet the Italians don't debate whether an 800hp twin V8 powered speedboat can ever be used to it's full performance around Venice. It just isn't the point.
Personally speaking, the more power in reserve, the better. There are too many moronic zombies on the roads these days and the quicker I can under / over take them and be on my way, the better.
Bravo!No one does.
So you've got a Veyron, which according to PH wisdom, can't be enjoyed to the full on public roads because it smashes some de facto p/w ratio. So what? I've got a 1000 watt RMS domestic AV system, which I can't use to the full. Does that mean I should sell it and by a 10 watt stereo because I can play it louder more often?
The whole point of huge power reserves is effortless performance. You can hear and feel the difference between something made to do a specific job and no more, and something made to do a job and THEN SOME. It's the quality of the experience. 1000lbft of thrust from the Veyron I would wager is more satisfying than wringing a VTEC's neck for it's 145lbft of modest, thrashy thrust.
You can get around Venice in a dingy with a 10hp outboard, or you can get around Venice in in a Riva Aquarama. I bet the Italians don't debate whether an 800hp twin V8 powered speedboat can ever be used to it's full performance around Venice. It just isn't the point.
Personally speaking, the more power in reserve, the better. There are too many moronic zombies on the roads these days and the quicker I can under / over take them and be on my way, the better.
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Tuesday 25th November 14:23
I find supercars are not really fit for the environment they will be most often used in, of course for the odd occasion where the roads are clear, and there are no cameras, or speed patrols they will be outstanding, but if one reflects on the reality of driving on the roads in this country at least, those times will likely be few and far between. When I have driven them my right lag was aching trying to hold my foot `off' the loud pedal for `most' of the time
I was talking to a guy on Jersey who had a super car, and given the restriction of living on an islnd like Jersey, asked him why he bothered with it, considering he could hardly ever get out of 1st or 2nd gear, and he said he drove it to give others the pleasure of seeing it. I had to agree with that, but it would frustrate the hell out of me!
They remind me a bit of sabre tooth tigers, whose `equipment' simply out grew the environment it was obliged to live in.
I was talking to a guy on Jersey who had a super car, and given the restriction of living on an islnd like Jersey, asked him why he bothered with it, considering he could hardly ever get out of 1st or 2nd gear, and he said he drove it to give others the pleasure of seeing it. I had to agree with that, but it would frustrate the hell out of me!
They remind me a bit of sabre tooth tigers, whose `equipment' simply out grew the environment it was obliged to live in.
My view is;
>200bhp - ok
>300bhp - better
>400bhp - perfect
>500bhp - bit ott
Once you get used to having cars with between 200 & 300 bhp, anything sub about 150 feels slow(ish) and requires lots more planning on slip roads etc.
Obviously weight plays a factor, but talking 4 door Saloon/Estate cars.
FWIW I currently drive a 3 cylinder corsa, it is 'adequate' but very tiring to drive distances in mainly because of the lack of power.
Prior to that I had an E320 V6 with 224 BHP, by no means a rocket ship but the power makes life much more pleasant.
Having spent time in an XKR and a DB7, both 400bhp +, this is my sweetspot for road use. Whilst you quite quickly reach licence losing speeds, getting there is effortless and that is what counts for me.
With great power comes great control (and responsibility!) or something like that.
Jimmyarm said:
My view is;
>200bhp - ok
>300bhp - better
>400bhp - perfect
>500bhp - bit ott
Once you get used to having cars with between 200 & 300 bhp, anything sub about 150 feels slow(ish) and requires lots more planning on slip roads etc.
Obviously weight plays a factor, but talking 4 door Saloon/Estate cars.
FWIW I currently drive a 3 cylinder corsa, it is 'adequate' but very tiring to drive distances in mainly because of the lack of power.
Prior to that I had an E320 V6 with 224 BHP, by no means a rocket ship but the power makes life much more pleasant.
Having spent time in an XKR and a DB7, both 400bhp +, this is my sweetspot for road use. Whilst you quite quickly reach licence losing speeds, getting there is effortless and that is what counts for me.
With great power comes great control (and responsibility!) or something like that.
Driving cars with a good level of power is definitely more relaxing, than punting an underpowered box along. First noticed this when doing long (800 mile plus in one direction) continental trips, many years ago. the difference in how I felt getting out of a reasonably powerful car, from that experienced getting out of a small low power car was significant, with almost no strain or tiredness>200bhp - ok
>300bhp - better
>400bhp - perfect
>500bhp - bit ott
Once you get used to having cars with between 200 & 300 bhp, anything sub about 150 feels slow(ish) and requires lots more planning on slip roads etc.
Obviously weight plays a factor, but talking 4 door Saloon/Estate cars.
FWIW I currently drive a 3 cylinder corsa, it is 'adequate' but very tiring to drive distances in mainly because of the lack of power.
Prior to that I had an E320 V6 with 224 BHP, by no means a rocket ship but the power makes life much more pleasant.
Having spent time in an XKR and a DB7, both 400bhp +, this is my sweetspot for road use. Whilst you quite quickly reach licence losing speeds, getting there is effortless and that is what counts for me.
With great power comes great control (and responsibility!) or something like that.
being felt after using the more powerful car. But sometimes in terms of power, (surprisingly for a Pistonhead to say) , there can be such a thing as having too much, which can often make it a pain to drive for extended periods.
LittleEnus said:
Dover Nige said:
This is exactly why I sold my Z4M Coupe for an Austin A35 with optimised brakes and suspension, powered by a throbbing 1098cc putting 64bhp out. The little thing makes me grin like a fool every time I get behind the wheel.
It's so much more fun than the Z4M which only made sense at high speed.
I've not looked back since changing once.
Now that''s what it's all about. Awesome.It's so much more fun than the Z4M which only made sense at high speed.
I've not looked back since changing once.
too many on here talking about "effortless". Get a diesel guys, this is PH ;-)
I have also found that having more power does make for a more relaxing drive. Overtakes are easier, you don't need to change gear as often (less of an issue with an automatic, mind).
My 745i is not what many would call a slow car... 6 dead to 60, it's been delimited and has seen 164 gps) but it's so slow compared to the M6.
My question was more about just how infrequently you'd be able to use full power and revs in something seriously quick. I guess you can, but not too often. Worth it when you can though
My 745i is not what many would call a slow car... 6 dead to 60, it's been delimited and has seen 164 gps) but it's so slow compared to the M6.
My question was more about just how infrequently you'd be able to use full power and revs in something seriously quick. I guess you can, but not too often. Worth it when you can though
E65Ross said:
My question was more about just how infrequently you'd be able to use full power and revs in something seriously quick.
I guess you can, but not too often. Worth it when you can though
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I guess you can, but not too often. Worth it when you can though
This time of year I cant in my Monaro (680bhp)
But on a warm day
Chiddo said:
I have a mark 5 R32, 250bhp, It's a quick car and will beat 99% of the cars I see on the road on the daily basis but me personally, I don't think it's that quick tbh.
You'd be surprised. You're easy meat to the majority of quick diesel repmobiles, and a good many hot hatches. Unless you live in Zambia, 99% is an exceptionally optimistic number.Pan Pan said:
Driving cars with a good level of power is definitely more relaxing, than punting an underpowered box along. First noticed this when doing long (800 mile plus in one direction) continental trips, many years ago. the difference in how I felt getting out of a reasonably powerful car, from that experienced getting out of a small low power car was significant.
The reality is that a modern 2.0 diesel estate is comfortable and no real effort to drive long distances across Europe. It will even do 130+ mph and long distances on a tankful. You don't need a 6 litre V12 GT.The wife's 1.2 petrol (Hi Torque Power !) is fine around town and a right laugh on the back roads. Overtaking is possible, but requires planning and a slow moving overtakee.
Both cars feel slow compared with my bike, but I just drive accordingly.
Randomthoughts said:
Chiddo said:
I have a mark 5 R32, 250bhp, It's a quick car and will beat 99% of the cars I see on the road on the daily basis but me personally, I don't think it's that quick tbh.
You'd be surprised. You're easy meat to the majority of quick diesel repmobiles, and a good many hot hatches. Unless you live in Zambia, 99% is an exceptionally optimistic number.Now, how many 200hp+ diesel cars are on the road? Not many
How many 200hp+ hot hatches are on the road? Not many.
Although the average has got significantly swifter, there still isn't that many vehicles doing 6 seconds to 60 or less on the road as a percentage.
I'd say the 99% number is fairly accurate, on most british roads.
That said, an R32 golf isn't 'Fast' in my book, but 'Swift'. Its got the normal minimum level of performance that I'm happy with in a car.
I think there is a decent argument that a car driven for enjoyment can definitely harm the experience by being "too powerful". I don't want "effortless" acceleration in a sports car (i.e. just plopping your foot down in 4th gear and sailing up in the middle of the rev range); that is nice in a car used for cruising around, but it is actively harmful to driving pleasure when you want involvement.
My main reason for disliking turbo engines is that there is no point using the rev range and getting the engine to roar. If I am going to accelerate hard, I want it to be noisy, eventful, fun and anything but effortless (given how rare it is that you can actually open the taps). When I see Autocar reviews get all excited about "flexibility" in a sports car, I know the World has lost the point of NA engines. Use a lower gear and enjoy the last few years of hearing a proper engine getting angry! There will be plenty of time for "effortless" performance when we are all pootling about in very fast, self-driving electric cars.
In the meantime, a car that will let you use its power at the top of the low gears is far better than one that can never get above 4000rpm because it is otherwise very illegal very quickly.
My main reason for disliking turbo engines is that there is no point using the rev range and getting the engine to roar. If I am going to accelerate hard, I want it to be noisy, eventful, fun and anything but effortless (given how rare it is that you can actually open the taps). When I see Autocar reviews get all excited about "flexibility" in a sports car, I know the World has lost the point of NA engines. Use a lower gear and enjoy the last few years of hearing a proper engine getting angry! There will be plenty of time for "effortless" performance when we are all pootling about in very fast, self-driving electric cars.
In the meantime, a car that will let you use its power at the top of the low gears is far better than one that can never get above 4000rpm because it is otherwise very illegal very quickly.
MC Bodge said:
Pan Pan said:
Driving cars with a good level of power is definitely more relaxing, than punting an underpowered box along. First noticed this when doing long (800 mile plus in one direction) continental trips, many years ago. the difference in how I felt getting out of a reasonably powerful car, from that experienced getting out of a small low power car was significant.
The reality is that a modern 2.0 diesel estate is comfortable and no real effort to drive long distances across Europe. It will even do 130+ mph and long distances on a tankful. You don't need a 6 litre V12 GT.The wife's 1.2 petrol (Hi Torque Power !) is fine around town and a right laugh on the back roads. Overtaking is possible, but requires planning and a slow moving overtakee.
Both cars feel slow compared with my bike, but I just drive accordingly.
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