Utilising the power on a VERY powerful car...
Discussion
Having just ‘upgraded’ from an E46 M3 to an E92 M3, I now wonder whether I've hit the ‘Fireblade Issue’.
By this I mean ‘is the vehicle now too fast to be able to thrash on a public road?’.
I had all manner of bikes in my late teens and 20s gradually upgrading to a Fireblade which was so quick it became pointless to actually use the power. Nothing to prove any more, no skill required and full acceleration could only be done for a few seconds or one gearchange before getting into illegal or dangerous territory. It was the dullest bike I’d ever had. Brilliant but dull.
I’m now wondering whether to ditch the M3 in the spring, now the V8 itch has been scratched, for something much slower that I could actually wring the nuts out of more often. Hmm still undecided but after a couple of months for ownership it’s strange that I’m even contemplating this.
By this I mean ‘is the vehicle now too fast to be able to thrash on a public road?’.
I had all manner of bikes in my late teens and 20s gradually upgrading to a Fireblade which was so quick it became pointless to actually use the power. Nothing to prove any more, no skill required and full acceleration could only be done for a few seconds or one gearchange before getting into illegal or dangerous territory. It was the dullest bike I’d ever had. Brilliant but dull.
I’m now wondering whether to ditch the M3 in the spring, now the V8 itch has been scratched, for something much slower that I could actually wring the nuts out of more often. Hmm still undecided but after a couple of months for ownership it’s strange that I’m even contemplating this.
XJ Flyer said:
...Throw in autobahn type speeds and 'making progress' over some big mountain climbs then it all looks a bit different...
...In an environment that is mostly about acceleration in the 80-140 mph + range and/or acceleration between the corners on long mountain climbs bigger more powerful is better...
... the general speed regime in Europe ...
Unfortunately for driving enthusiasts, outside of Germany, in the current day Euro trips are certainly not "mostly about acceleration in the 80-140 mph + range". ...In an environment that is mostly about acceleration in the 80-140 mph + range and/or acceleration between the corners on long mountain climbs bigger more powerful is better...
... the general speed regime in Europe ...
For the vast majority of people, especially if the car is loaded up with luggage and family, long continental trips are about hours on end at a constant speed, say 80 mph - something that doesn't require much power. Making progress today is a balance of avoiding speeding tickets and minimising fuel stops - something that ultimately, a 320d can do surprisingly well.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in your camp of having powerful cars and wanting to use them properly, especially on the continent. I was enjoying 415hp on greasy UK roads this weekend and can't wait to try it across the channel next year.
toasty said:
Having just ‘upgraded’ from an E46 M3 to an E92 M3, I now wonder whether I've hit the ‘Fireblade Issue’.
By this I mean ‘is the vehicle now too fast to be able to thrash on a public road?’.
I’m now wondering whether to ditch the M3 in the spring, now the V8 itch has been scratched, for something much slower that I could actually wring the nuts out of more often. Hmm still undecided but after a couple of months for ownership it’s strange that I’m even contemplating this.
My issue with the E92 M3 was that I never thought it was too fast to be able to thrash on a public road but it sometimes felt a little dull unless you were thrashing it to bits, however 100mph plus it does get a move on very nicely but that's not always very practical if you want to keep your license! so I do get where you are coming from. By this I mean ‘is the vehicle now too fast to be able to thrash on a public road?’.
I’m now wondering whether to ditch the M3 in the spring, now the V8 itch has been scratched, for something much slower that I could actually wring the nuts out of more often. Hmm still undecided but after a couple of months for ownership it’s strange that I’m even contemplating this.
I much preferred my Cerbera because even at 30 mph you had the noise and drama and you obviously aren't just sitting in a 3 series BMW, my M3 has actually put me off high rev/low torque cars because in the daily environment you don't get much back whereas something with lots of low down torque I find more rewarding.
Don't get me wrong if I had the roads all to myself I would happily drive something that revs to 8400rpm as there is more ultimate reward but that's not possible so something like a M235i or the new M4 would suit me better personally.
I still think that the lighter the better with a nice dollop of power is the best recipe.
Max_Torque said:
It's worth noting that powerful RWD cars need progressive throttle inputs to "find" all the traction they can develop. If you just jump on the throttle hard, when there is no rearwards weight transfer (because the car is not accelerating) they will immediately spin the wheels (or flash the DSC light). But feed the throttle in over the period of about a second, the car sits back on the drive wheels and will take pretty much full throttle even in the wet (potholes/whitelines/diesel/leaves/smalldogs permitting of course!)
Most people who i drive with, in powerful cars who complain of a "lack of traction" are there own undoing............
I don't want to agree in case I jinx myself Most people who i drive with, in powerful cars who complain of a "lack of traction" are there own undoing............
The first time I took my Dax (280bhp, 610Kg) out on the road, it was chucking it down, and it's on R888s. I was terrified that it was going to be an uncontrollable horror. But it's really not. Yes you can spin the rears at will, but you have to want to. Or have no feeling in your right foot, I suppose.
cerb4.5lee said:
toasty said:
Having just ‘upgraded’ from an E46 M3 to an E92 M3, I now wonder whether I've hit the ‘Fireblade Issue’.
By this I mean ‘is the vehicle now too fast to be able to thrash on a public road?’.
I’m now wondering whether to ditch the M3 in the spring, now the V8 itch has been scratched, for something much slower that I could actually wring the nuts out of more often. Hmm still undecided but after a couple of months for ownership it’s strange that I’m even contemplating this.
My issue with the E92 M3 was that I never thought it was too fast to be able to thrash on a public road but it sometimes felt a little dull unless you were thrashing it to bits, however 100mph plus it does get a move on very nicely but that's not always very practical if you want to keep your license! so I do get where you are coming from. By this I mean ‘is the vehicle now too fast to be able to thrash on a public road?’.
I’m now wondering whether to ditch the M3 in the spring, now the V8 itch has been scratched, for something much slower that I could actually wring the nuts out of more often. Hmm still undecided but after a couple of months for ownership it’s strange that I’m even contemplating this.
I much preferred my Cerbera because even at 30 mph you had the noise and drama and you obviously aren't just sitting in a 3 series BMW, my M3 has actually put me off high rev/low torque cars because in the daily environment you don't get much back whereas something with lots of low down torque I find more rewarding.
Don't get me wrong if I had the roads all to myself I would happily drive something that revs to 8400rpm as there is more ultimate reward but that's not possible so something like a M235i or the new M4 would suit me better personally.
I still think that the lighter the better with a nice dollop of power is the best recipe.
I cant stand "sports" cars with lots of mid-range torque - it just means that you bore yourself to death at 3000rpm whilst losing your licence! At least it would be an event to drive fast enough to get into really big trouble in an M3 (all of 1st, all of 2nd, most of 3rd).
cerb4.5lee said:
donutsina911 said:
BlueEyedBoy said:
and also had previously a 4.5 Cerbera) and don't / didn't struggle at all using most of the power regulary in 1st to 3rd.
You must have a delicate right boot - the last 2 days in the peeing rain have been 'eventful' - there's no way I can use anywhere close to 'most' of the 1-3rd gear power in the Tuscan S without ending up arse about face, especially when it's damp!
It still meant I would hit 90 in 2nd CrutyRammers said:
I don't want to agree in case I jinx myself
The first time I took my Dax (280bhp, 610Kg) out on the road, it was chucking it down, and it's on R888s. I was terrified that it was going to be an uncontrollable horror. But it's really not. Yes you can spin the rears at will, but you have to want to. Or have no feeling in your right foot, I suppose.
Loving the sound of that Dax.The first time I took my Dax (280bhp, 610Kg) out on the road, it was chucking it down, and it's on R888s. I was terrified that it was going to be an uncontrollable horror. But it's really not. Yes you can spin the rears at will, but you have to want to. Or have no feeling in your right foot, I suppose.
I think it only becomes an issue when you're trying to travel quickly in poorer conditions. My experience is that BMWs in particular have TC that kicks in very early and becomes frustrating. It's not dangerous, it's not something you can't drive around, but it's very frustrating when you're in a rush. My 911 has a lot more traction (and torque) and the stability control intervenes much latter than my previous M3. The M3 was fun but frustrating in the damp, ironically, the 911 can be a little frustrating in the dry as you have to be pushing so hard to feel like you're working the car hard.
On the M3 comments above, I think the V8 is a little underwhelming due to its size and weight. Wonderful engine and a lively chassis. But just too heavy and I don't like the way the stability intervenes.
BlueEyedBoy said:
I guess I should have said in the dry. There is also a big difference between stamping on the pedal and easing it to the floor. No i didn't stamp on the pedal, but the cerb had traction issues in all weathers if you did this, which is why TVR probably gave it such a massive range It still meant I would hit 90 in 2nd
We need to stop discussing the Cerb because its only making me miss mine even more! It still meant I would hit 90 in 2nd 
second gear was also my favourite I think. Hungrymc said:
On the M3 comments above, I think the V8 is a little underwhelming due to its size and weight. Wonderful engine and a lively chassis. But just too heavy and I don't like the way the stability intervenes.
Absolutely spot on and that is exactly how I would describe it pretty much word for word. Have to agree with the OP, I ran a 32 GTR with 720bhp for a year and it was just to much power. Track days were fantastic and the odd A Road and Dual carriageway blast was fun but only for a few seconds then you HAD to back off. Incredible piece of kit and glad I have scratched the big power car itch but nowadays I doubt I would bother going above 400bhp unless it was a V8 :-D
There is a lot to be said for a decent set up car with adequate power, I'm sure owning a Hypercar is an incredible experience but to drive one to its full potential would be suicidal/unobtainable for 99% of drivers. Glad they exist though for the child inside of me.
There is a lot to be said for a decent set up car with adequate power, I'm sure owning a Hypercar is an incredible experience but to drive one to its full potential would be suicidal/unobtainable for 99% of drivers. Glad they exist though for the child inside of me.
StottyEvo said:
A women I work with sold her M5 for this specific reason, whenever pulling out of junctions in the wet the TC was kicking in and it annoyed her greatly. Shes always had high powered cars so drives quickly, but shes 50, not exactly a yobbo... She traded the M5 in for an M3!
As in the new M5 with this same engine? I presume it has the same TC system as my M6 (2013) had, which worked really well. You didn't even notice the TC system kicking in, it just restricted the power very nicely, made the power very usable in the wet.Like I said before though, even with it's 560bhp the car is just dull to drive, well for me anyway.
braddo said:
XJ Flyer said:
...Throw in autobahn type speeds and 'making progress' over some big mountain climbs then it all looks a bit different...
...In an environment that is mostly about acceleration in the 80-140 mph + range and/or acceleration between the corners on long mountain climbs bigger more powerful is better...
... the general speed regime in Europe ...
Unfortunately for driving enthusiasts, outside of Germany, in the current day Euro trips are certainly not "mostly about acceleration in the 80-140 mph + range". ...In an environment that is mostly about acceleration in the 80-140 mph + range and/or acceleration between the corners on long mountain climbs bigger more powerful is better...
... the general speed regime in Europe ...
For the vast majority of people, especially if the car is loaded up with luggage and family, long continental trips are about hours on end at a constant speed, say 80 mph - something that doesn't require much power. Making progress today is a balance of avoiding speeding tickets and minimising fuel stops - something that ultimately, a 320d can do surprisingly well.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in your camp of having powerful cars and wanting to use them properly, especially on the continent. I was enjoying 415hp on greasy UK roads this weekend and can't wait to try it across the channel next year.
swerni said:
The Z06 is running on 325 rears and if i cruse in second at 60 then bury the throttle, it spins the rears in straight line in the dry.
In the wet you have to have a very very light right foot.
I guess this illustrates the point quite well about using a "measured" application of throttle.In the wet you have to have a very very light right foot.
At 60mph, 564bhp is ~14kN tractive effort. A Z06 weighs ~1500kg with the driver, which, funnily enough is also around 14kN. Therefore if you "stab" that power on, there is insufficient normal load on the rear tyres, at a typical co-efficient of friction on a dry road (say mU of around 1.3),to avoid wheelspin. However, apply that same 564bhp more carefully, wait for the mass to transfer rewards, and you will "generate" enough traction to avoid wheelspin ;-)
Max_Torque said:
I guess this illustrates the point quite well about using a "measured" application of throttle.
At 60mph, 564bhp is ~14kN tractive effort. A Z06 weighs ~1500kg with the driver, which, funnily enough is also around 14kN. Therefore if you "stab" that power on, there is insufficient normal load on the rear tyres, at a typical co-efficient of friction on a dry road (say mU of around 1.3),to avoid wheelspin. However, apply that same 564bhp more carefully, wait for the mass to transfer rewards, and you will "generate" enough traction to avoid wheelspin ;-)
I don't know if anyone is claiming they are undrivable. I learned my throttle control on motorbikes before I had cars that were particularly sensitive to it (it is however standard good driving). Managing and using weight transfer in all directions is a huge part of motorcycling.At 60mph, 564bhp is ~14kN tractive effort. A Z06 weighs ~1500kg with the driver, which, funnily enough is also around 14kN. Therefore if you "stab" that power on, there is insufficient normal load on the rear tyres, at a typical co-efficient of friction on a dry road (say mU of around 1.3),to avoid wheelspin. However, apply that same 564bhp more carefully, wait for the mass to transfer rewards, and you will "generate" enough traction to avoid wheelspin ;-)
How do you calculate from bhp to Force (assumptions for gearing and initial velocity etc?) really interested in understanding that.
I don't think I've ever driven a car or ridden a bike and thought it had too much power. But I think the more power you have (perhaps that should be power / weight), the more it dominates the attention of the driver unless you drive deliberately in the mid range and with short shifting to take peak power out of the equation.
We all like different things in a car, but I think power as an attribute has to be taken in the context of many other aspects such as weight, power delivery, chassis characteristics, electronics set up etc.
You get used to it, and then you want more.
The power comes in great for sudden surprise overtakes. TBH I very rarely go full power anywhere, a couple of gears down is enough to do most maneuverers anyway. However, throw the tiniest bit of rain and you've got a useless amount of power.
The power comes in great for sudden surprise overtakes. TBH I very rarely go full power anywhere, a couple of gears down is enough to do most maneuverers anyway. However, throw the tiniest bit of rain and you've got a useless amount of power.
I remember 4 years ago, between christmas and new year, picking up my E55 AMG from mercedes in portsmouth.
Pissing down, came out the dealership, took it all nice and steady all the way home, got to within a mile of the house and had a MASSIVE moment on the last roundabout - lights going off, oppo, squealy tyres, full monty. Nearly s
t my whack.
Happy days. In answer to the OP, in the wet, it's sometimes tricky
Pissing down, came out the dealership, took it all nice and steady all the way home, got to within a mile of the house and had a MASSIVE moment on the last roundabout - lights going off, oppo, squealy tyres, full monty. Nearly s
t my whack.Happy days. In answer to the OP, in the wet, it's sometimes tricky
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