RE: Retro 911 meets retro wannabe 991
Discussion
sisu said:
The Solex carbs issues back in the day
These included
-an incurable flat spot between 3000-4000 Rpm.
-The rocking of the engine effected the throttle shafts, the bushing wore out after around 4000 miles.
-The emulsion tubes were the wrong size.
-Fuel overheating in the overflow system.
-The fuel supply was to small in the joints between each solex carb meaning fuel starvation at full throttle.
-The diaphragm fuel pump at the time would wear compounding the problems listed above.
So they put Webers on the 911 as a dealer recall and they solved these problems.
The problems with the Webers they used were off a Lancia (I can't remember the model) and so the spacing isn't correct for a 911 compared to the Solex.
-The Webers don't have chokes
-Webers require religiously clean fuel to run properly
-The early ones would go dry under cornering or overfill the float bowls unless they were modified. The PMO Webers have upgrades and improvements over the Italian Webers.
So why would you choose Solex's over Webers?
The Solex 40pi have a better flow than the Webers as this is a direct route for the 911. The rebushing, o-ring and a myriad of other modifications people have solved over 50 years make the Solex carbs reliable and fuel pumps are now more consistent.
Just ignore modern fuel injection and the last 30 years and this is as good as it gets.
Thanks, excellent read These included
-an incurable flat spot between 3000-4000 Rpm.
-The rocking of the engine effected the throttle shafts, the bushing wore out after around 4000 miles.
-The emulsion tubes were the wrong size.
-Fuel overheating in the overflow system.
-The fuel supply was to small in the joints between each solex carb meaning fuel starvation at full throttle.
-The diaphragm fuel pump at the time would wear compounding the problems listed above.
So they put Webers on the 911 as a dealer recall and they solved these problems.
The problems with the Webers they used were off a Lancia (I can't remember the model) and so the spacing isn't correct for a 911 compared to the Solex.
-The Webers don't have chokes
-Webers require religiously clean fuel to run properly
-The early ones would go dry under cornering or overfill the float bowls unless they were modified. The PMO Webers have upgrades and improvements over the Italian Webers.
So why would you choose Solex's over Webers?
The Solex 40pi have a better flow than the Webers as this is a direct route for the 911. The rebushing, o-ring and a myriad of other modifications people have solved over 50 years make the Solex carbs reliable and fuel pumps are now more consistent.
Just ignore modern fuel injection and the last 30 years and this is as good as it gets.
As with any restomod the balance between how good it is and what 'characteristics' you want to live with is the never ending part though isn't it?
He has 911 S brakes,15x6" wheels and stock suspension from the era. This isn't the 1st car to stick a late 70's engine into an early car and make the car feel faster than it should be for the brakes/tyres.
While he poopoos the Singer being a 964 made to look like an early car, with wide guards and big wheels. I can see why the Singer came about and why it costs so much.
He has 911 S brakes,15x6" wheels and stock suspension from the era. This isn't the 1st car to stick a late 70's engine into an early car and make the car feel faster than it should be for the brakes/tyres.
While he poopoos the Singer being a 964 made to look like an early car, with wide guards and big wheels. I can see why the Singer came about and why it costs so much.
hondansx said:
Fantastically pretty things, early 911s. Would have to drive one before committing to a rose-tinted build though!
They're noisy, the rhd driving position is weird, the handling is lively (even on modern rubber), the brakes need a huge shove to work, the heating and ventilation is a joke, they rust, they're not that reliable, standard 'comfort seats' offer no more support than a park bench, the wind-noise at motorway speeds is deafening, they're now very expensive to buy and there are a lot of rubbish car around hiding issues so purchasing one is a minefield.I love mine.
SS7
sisu said:
The Solex carbs issues back in the day
These included
-an incurable flat spot between 3000-4000 Rpm.
-The rocking of the engine effected the throttle shafts, the bushing wore out after around 4000 miles.
-The emulsion tubes were the wrong size.
-Fuel overheating in the overflow system.
-The fuel supply was to small in the joints between each solex carb meaning fuel starvation at full throttle.
-The diaphragm fuel pump at the time would wear compounding the problems listed above.
So they put Webers on the 911 as a dealer recall and they solved these problems.
The problems with the Webers they used were off a Lancia (I can't remember the model) and so the spacing isn't correct for a 911 compared to the Solex.
-The Webers don't have chokes
-Webers require religiously clean fuel to run properly
-The early ones would go dry under cornering or overfill the float bowls unless they were modified. The PMO Webers have upgrades and improvements over the Italian Webers.
So why would you choose Solex's over Webers?
The Solex 40pi have a better flow than the Webers as this is a direct route for the 911. The rebushing, o-ring and a myriad of other modifications people have solved over 50 years make the Solex carbs reliable and fuel pumps are now more consistent.
Interesting, I hadn't realised the Webers were offered as a dealer recall.These included
-an incurable flat spot between 3000-4000 Rpm.
-The rocking of the engine effected the throttle shafts, the bushing wore out after around 4000 miles.
-The emulsion tubes were the wrong size.
-Fuel overheating in the overflow system.
-The fuel supply was to small in the joints between each solex carb meaning fuel starvation at full throttle.
-The diaphragm fuel pump at the time would wear compounding the problems listed above.
So they put Webers on the 911 as a dealer recall and they solved these problems.
The problems with the Webers they used were off a Lancia (I can't remember the model) and so the spacing isn't correct for a 911 compared to the Solex.
-The Webers don't have chokes
-Webers require religiously clean fuel to run properly
-The early ones would go dry under cornering or overfill the float bowls unless they were modified. The PMO Webers have upgrades and improvements over the Italian Webers.
So why would you choose Solex's over Webers?
The Solex 40pi have a better flow than the Webers as this is a direct route for the 911. The rebushing, o-ring and a myriad of other modifications people have solved over 50 years make the Solex carbs reliable and fuel pumps are now more consistent.
My understanding is most switched because at the time... jets, emulsion tubes and venturis were not available for Solexs making them virtually impossible to tune.
Things have moved on considerably these days and the Solexs do actually have a couple of nice features missing from the Webbers, so now they're tunable and parts are available many consider them the way to go.
Alex ran the car on Webbers when we did the shakedown to the LMC simply because we ran out of time, all I can say is the car runs massively better on the modified/improved Solexes but given more time I'm sure the Webbers could have been made to work acceptably.
sisu said:
Just ignore modern fuel injection and the last 30 years and this is as good as it gets.
^^^This^^^ 1000 times over, in my opinion for which I have been most vocal about with my good friend Alex, the car only wants for one thing....A modern engine management system running 3D mappable electronic fuel injection and ignition
To my mind this sits perfectly with the design brief of the car, forget the whole Webber vs Solex argument for a minute if Alex is happy to use modern technology to enhance the performance & usability of the original design elsewhere on the car, then replacing the carbs with an aftermarket engine management system should be an absolute no-brainer.
He's resisting right now, but I'm working on him
I think he feels some character will be lost and I do get that, but a lot of that character really just comes from the carburetors inefficiencies.
Alex intends to use the car on a daily basis for which I applaud him, so while he resists injection for the time being I'm quietly confident he'll see the light when the true character of carbs start to reveal themselves in the form of difficult cold starts, the constant battle against dirt & flooding, flat spots, and other frustrating maladies our rose tinted spectacles have helped us forget were all very much part of the carburetor's charming character.
In my opinion a Canems engine management system running Jenvey throttle bodies is just what this car needs to make it the ultimate usable classic. I am ready for the purists shoot me down on this, but lets be honest here Alex's car is not exactly as Porsche created it so I don't see the originality argument holds water here.
And if aesthetics are the stumbling block they shouldn't be, as we can see Jenvey throttle bodies even look like Webbers or Solexes.
Come on Alex, it'll be the icing on one very lovely cake
I too have a 67 912 with a 911 engine a 2.2T engine in my case. I also have the benefit of RS Suspension and front brakes. I am lucky enough to have more or less my dream car but for half the price I'd probably need to pay for an original example. So sorry to the purest' but I would rather drive my little Frankenstein Porsche on a Sunday morning than dream about a car that will forever be out of my reach from now on. Question to all those reading this what do you think something like my car would be worth in rust free perfect although not strictly original condition, more or less than a matching numbers perfect 912?
rob.e said:
Nice article. Love the older car much more.. super job on the resto - my favorite car from the porsche sunday service.
The early 901's were plagued with problems. I know Magnus Walker talks about the purity of the early cars. But they really were awful. The 356C 4 1/2 inch wheels with narrow/high profile tyres were on there to muffle the camber changes in the suspension which was new at the time, they still hadn't sorted out the sway bars or other components in relation to this new heavier engine, there was alot of understeer , more than was was expected.
The problem was that this wasn't gradual so you would be going into a corner and get understeer. To counteract this you reduce speed to weight up the front tyres. However the early 911's had snap over steer, entering a corner on a trailing throttle this would unload the rear wheels, this would change the camber of the rear wheels, the reaction was different on right or left hand bends and even in a straight road you could get the rear to move even with the curve or shape of the road itself. Carry a passenger or luggage and these suspension movements would be lower, but a large hump - such as a motorway speed one would compress and unload it more.
They put overriders on the front bumpers filled with lead to balance the car out, they tried it in the front luggage area but it wasn't as effective, but a cheaper option as lead was expensive they made the reinforced front bumpers that weighed 22KG.
Now just take into consideration your favourite piece of road and add into it all these unpredictable aspects of the car itself and such deft touches to drive it and the Solex flat spot was at the time a real killer.
The small changes made to the car to the late 60's were significant and retooling the body to lengthen it was not a cheap fix either.
The problem was that this wasn't gradual so you would be going into a corner and get understeer. To counteract this you reduce speed to weight up the front tyres. However the early 911's had snap over steer, entering a corner on a trailing throttle this would unload the rear wheels, this would change the camber of the rear wheels, the reaction was different on right or left hand bends and even in a straight road you could get the rear to move even with the curve or shape of the road itself. Carry a passenger or luggage and these suspension movements would be lower, but a large hump - such as a motorway speed one would compress and unload it more.
They put overriders on the front bumpers filled with lead to balance the car out, they tried it in the front luggage area but it wasn't as effective, but a cheaper option as lead was expensive they made the reinforced front bumpers that weighed 22KG.
Now just take into consideration your favourite piece of road and add into it all these unpredictable aspects of the car itself and such deft touches to drive it and the Solex flat spot was at the time a real killer.
The small changes made to the car to the late 60's were significant and retooling the body to lengthen it was not a cheap fix either.
g7jhp said:
PS cars are so over priced for what they offer.
For the money they cost you could have far more fun creating your own bespoke 911 as Alex has done.
Can't comment on the pricing, but another option is Autofarm. Those guys will do pretty much whatever you want and have tons of experience, both in the original rare vehicles and recreations.For the money they cost you could have far more fun creating your own bespoke 911 as Alex has done.
A mate of mine is using them to build a '74 3.0 RS recreation which is going to be stunning when it's done, at a build cost that is a fraction of a used 991.
rob.e said:
g7jhp said:
PS cars are so over priced for what they offer.
For the money they cost you could have far more fun creating your own bespoke 911 as Alex has done.
Can't comment on the pricing, but another option is Autofarm. Those guys will do pretty much whatever you want and have tons of experience, both in the original rare vehicles and recreations.For the money they cost you could have far more fun creating your own bespoke 911 as Alex has done.
A mate of mine is using them to build a '74 3.0 RS recreation which is going to be stunning when it's done, at a build cost that is a fraction of a used 991.
SS7
stuart-b said:
405dogvan said:
I just looked at a picture and thought "what in the name of f
k do I need 7 manual gears for?"
Seriously - isn't that just a pain-in-the-arse both in terms of finding a gear and never being in the right one - ever?
You probably wrote a bike when you were younger for years with 21 to 28 or more gears. k do I need 7 manual gears for?"Seriously - isn't that just a pain-in-the-arse both in terms of finding a gear and never being in the right one - ever?
You'll probably manage OK
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