Ambulance and a red light
Discussion
The ambulance was clearly in a rush and more than likely this was a life or death situation for someone. So you just sat there because you shouldn't go through a red light? Are you serious?
What's wrong with slowly nudging forward into the junction or moving right in front of the car to the side of you then reversing back to get out of the junction? Did you not notice or hear anything prior to pulling up? I find it hard to believe your only option was to just sit there.
What's wrong with slowly nudging forward into the junction or moving right in front of the car to the side of you then reversing back to get out of the junction? Did you not notice or hear anything prior to pulling up? I find it hard to believe your only option was to just sit there.
Edited by EnthusiastOwned on Wednesday 26th November 10:24
I had this situation in Woking a few years ago. I was in lane 2 at the head of the queue as the ambulance came up behind me. Crossing traffic had stopped at the sight of the ambulance so I pulled forward and to the right and stopped in clear view of the camera.
I sent an email to the traffic enforcement folks explaining what happened and within 6 hours they got back to me saying they'd reviewed the images and there would be no penalty coming my way.
I sent an email to the traffic enforcement folks explaining what happened and within 6 hours they got back to me saying they'd reviewed the images and there would be no penalty coming my way.
Been a paramedic for years and I never force anyone to go through a red, all junctions are different, some are wide and cars have room just to pull to the side and I can squeeze through,if it looks a bit tight ill turn my sirens off and come to a stop,but most people will try to move in some way, I just know that if I sit there with the 'yelp' sirens screaming everyone panics and things usually go all to pot.
chrisgtx said:
Been a paramedic for years and I never force anyone to go through a red, all junctions are different, some are wide and cars have room just to pull to the side and I can squeeze through,if it looks a bit tight ill turn my sirens off and come to a stop,but most people will try to move in some way, I just know that if I sit there with the 'yelp' sirens screaming everyone panics and things usually go all to pot.
Probably potentially can cause more bad than good, all you need is a panicker and as we see there are plenty of those when faced with blue lights and a siren behind them, even on a straight bit of road, throw in a junction and red lights and there could be all manner of problems.vtecyo said:
Surely you could appeal a ticket for letting an ambulance through?
I'd have (and do) moved. Imagine it was your relative in there.
It is not a legal defence, as williamp on this thread found when he got nicked for it.I'd have (and do) moved. Imagine it was your relative in there.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
richhamer said:
As a response trained police driver I can say that the emergency driver is trained to find their way through without pressuring anyone else. We have an exemption to use a red light as a give way. The normal driver does not. Also, if it goes wrong and we crash, our exemption is removed and the crash is automatically deemed to be our fault. So, if we can't get through we should turn off the sirens so as not to pressurise as the consequences could be quite severe.
Also, the benefit is likely to be marginal anyway. You might gain at most a minute. I admit that could make a difference at the job you're off to but probably not. And the delay in getting there if the guy in front crashes while running a red to let you through will be much greater. We are used to doing it, the average motorist panics with blue lights behind them and may not be using their judgement.
Usually people will go over the line and pull across and we are grateful but sounding the horn to push someone through is not a good move. Sometimes you just have to deal with the fact you can't get through and in a big police van or ambulance that happens surprisingly often.
^^^^This. Also, the benefit is likely to be marginal anyway. You might gain at most a minute. I admit that could make a difference at the job you're off to but probably not. And the delay in getting there if the guy in front crashes while running a red to let you through will be much greater. We are used to doing it, the average motorist panics with blue lights behind them and may not be using their judgement.
Usually people will go over the line and pull across and we are grateful but sounding the horn to push someone through is not a good move. Sometimes you just have to deal with the fact you can't get through and in a big police van or ambulance that happens surprisingly often.
If you end up having a crash yourself on the way to a job then you're no use to anybody.
EnthusiastOwned said:
The ambulance was clearly in a rush and more than likely this was a life or death situation for someone. So you just sat there because you shouldn't go through a red light? Are you serious?
What's wrong with slowly nudging forward into the junction or moving right in front of the car to the side of you then reversing back to get out of the junction? Did you not notice or hear anything prior to pulling up? I find it hard to believe your only option was to just sit there.
Did you read my post? I said that I had already pulled up, handbrake on before I even heard the ambulance coming round a corner with it's blues on. The ambulance also parked close enough to my rear bumper that reversing was out of the question. What's wrong with slowly nudging forward into the junction or moving right in front of the car to the side of you then reversing back to get out of the junction? Did you not notice or hear anything prior to pulling up? I find it hard to believe your only option was to just sit there.
Edited by EnthusiastOwned on Wednesday 26th November 10:24
Of course I don't want to be the reason that someone lives or dies, however, I have never been in a situation where my only route out of the situation was to go through a red light. so I'm asking on here for opinions from those that have been in this situation before and straight from the horse's mouth of the emergency services drivers.
I will add that after 10 seconds or so, the lights changed and I pulled over past the junction to let him through. So hopefully it had no impact on the person they were heading for.
Charlie, there have been a million threads on this exact subject in the Speed, Plod & The Law forum, and they all end up expressing the same legal position. If a police officer directs you to go through a red light, it is legal and you should do so. If you go through a red light because you feel under pressure from any other emergency service you have no exemption from the law. Many people have been prosecuted under such circumstances.
Lowtimer said:
vtecyo said:
Surely you could appeal a ticket for letting an ambulance through?
I'd have (and do) moved. Imagine it was your relative in there.
It is not a legal defence, as williamp on this thread found when he got nicked for it.I'd have (and do) moved. Imagine it was your relative in there.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
HTP99 said:
chrisgtx said:
Been a paramedic for years and I never force anyone to go through a red, all junctions are different, some are wide and cars have room just to pull to the side and I can squeeze through,if it looks a bit tight ill turn my sirens off and come to a stop,but most people will try to move in some way, I just know that if I sit there with the 'yelp' sirens screaming everyone panics and things usually go all to pot.
Probably potentially can cause more bad than good, all you need is a panicker and as we see there are plenty of those when faced with blue lights and a siren behind them, even on a straight bit of road, throw in a junction and red lights and there could be all manner of problems.A people shouldn't automatically think that it's a life or death situation all the time too,as only a fraction of our jobs are that,we've had a lot of changes recently due to pressures about what jobs we go to on blues. So don't feel the guilt if you couldn't get out of our way through no fault of your own or under the circumstances.
hondansx said:
You should have moved. I hate to be melodramatic, but do you really put a ticket/fine ahead of a potential life or death situation?
Why does the law put a fine/3 points ahead of someone's life? Wouldn't it make more sense for the law to change to allow this situation? Instead of relying on the public to break it?Trif said:
hondansx said:
You should have moved. I hate to be melodramatic, but do you really put a ticket/fine ahead of a potential life or death situation?
Why does the law put a fine/3 points ahead of someone's life? Wouldn't it make more sense for the law to change to allow this situation? Instead of relying on the public to break it?The majority of drivers have enough trouble dealing with an emergency service vehicle when they are not sitting at a red light as it is...
My own view is it would depend on camera's. No camera and room to move or other traffic seen and stopped I'd go through or over the line at least. If there's a camera then I don't think I would trust the authorities to apply common sense and would stay.
I tend to think what if it's my family.....
I tend to think what if it's my family.....
hondansx said:
You should have moved. I hate to be melodramatic, but do you really put a ticket/fine ahead of a potential life or death situation?
Not many traffic lights have cameras, and the fact than an ambulance is behind you would more than likely mean you would never receive a ticket, and if you did, you will have the evidence to demonstrate extenuating circumstances.
Sorry but this is total bNot many traffic lights have cameras, and the fact than an ambulance is behind you would more than likely mean you would never receive a ticket, and if you did, you will have the evidence to demonstrate extenuating circumstances.
ks. It happened to me, instinctively i crossed the lights, seconds before they changed to green. I received a NIP and took it to court. I presented the judge with my story and a written letter from South Yorks ambulance service saying there was an emergency call in the area at the time of the incident, but they could not track/ confirm the route the ambulance took, however, the most direct route was to use the main road in question and turn left at the lights I crossed. The ambulance crossed on red/ amber so did not get "flashed" byt he camera.The road in question is a gantry controlled road in which the middle lane changes direction depending time of day. The CPS swore it was an outbound lane in the morning rush our (my direction of travel) so the ambulance could have gone round me and the car next to me in the "3rd" lane. It was not, it was an inbound lane during morning rush hour. Queens road in sheffield for those that know it.
After giving my story and evidence to the court I received a £60, £30 court costs and a TS10 which remained disclosed to insurers for 5 years. I was 22 at the time and it cost me a f
king fortune.OP - I would have done what you did after this bitter experience. Sorry if that effects others, but the law does not protect genuine cases.
My girlfriend is just about to do her theory test and she was doing the official training disc a few nights ago, I was surprised to see it say that at a red light you should NEVER go through even if the ambulance/emergency vehicle/etc is behind you.
I was surprised at first, but it makes sense, the red lights are there for a reason and it would be very easy for a car to come flying through the green light on the other side and hit you, causing a much bigger accident than perhaps the emergency service is even responding to. Plus you have no legal ground to avoid a ticket, though it may be waived as a good will gesture - and this includes going into bus lanes, mounting curbs, crossing red lights, etc.
Even on an A road with double white lines down the middle (as in no-passing section) the emergency service vehicle should not pass and you should not pull over, as the road is not deemed safe to do this. The emergency service should stay behind you until the road returns to a regular, passing permitted, stretch of carriageway and pass you there.
It does all make sense as it is all about making things as safe as possible, the last thing the emergency services should be doing is putting any third party at risk, and unfortunately a number of them seem unaware of the actual rules of the road - and them acting pushy or even aggressive to get you to do something illegal and potentially dangerous is clearly not in the public interest.
I was surprised at first, but it makes sense, the red lights are there for a reason and it would be very easy for a car to come flying through the green light on the other side and hit you, causing a much bigger accident than perhaps the emergency service is even responding to. Plus you have no legal ground to avoid a ticket, though it may be waived as a good will gesture - and this includes going into bus lanes, mounting curbs, crossing red lights, etc.
Even on an A road with double white lines down the middle (as in no-passing section) the emergency service vehicle should not pass and you should not pull over, as the road is not deemed safe to do this. The emergency service should stay behind you until the road returns to a regular, passing permitted, stretch of carriageway and pass you there.
It does all make sense as it is all about making things as safe as possible, the last thing the emergency services should be doing is putting any third party at risk, and unfortunately a number of them seem unaware of the actual rules of the road - and them acting pushy or even aggressive to get you to do something illegal and potentially dangerous is clearly not in the public interest.
surveyor said:
I tend to think what if it's my family.....
Exactly. To me the priorities are absolutely clear and obvious:1. Don't cause an accident
2. Help the emergency vehicle on its way
3. Obey the law.
I can see how one might feel pressured to put 3 above 2 if there was a camera present, or after hearing enough stories about people getting done for it, but traffic lights without cameras vastly outnumber traffic lights with cameras, and you only hear the stories when people do get done for it - vastly more people don't get done for it - so putting 3 above 2 all the time is irrational in my opinion. Putting 3 above 2 as a point of principle simply because the law is the law is pathological. The world is better without people like that in it.
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